Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[Kathi]

OK, you didn't read the OP carefully. So, here is the definitions. Eternal life is God's life, as He is eternal. He gives this life to those who believe in Christ. The second death is the LoF, where those who never believed never obtained God's life, which is eternal life.

Now, with these definitions, care to re-think your answer?

Where do you think unbelievers go when they die?Do you think unbelievers have an eternal existence somewhere?Where would that be?

 

[Kathi]

This warning is to born again believers who have eternal life dwelling within them.


If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

If born again Christians choose to take the mark of the beast, then they will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.


JLB

That is correct.

 

[FreeGrace]

This warning is to born again believers who have eternal life dwelling within them.

You still have not explained HOW eternal LIFE can exist in the second DEATH.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where do you think unbelievers go when they die?Do you think unbelievers have an eternal existence somewhere?Where would that be?

LoF. Those who have never believed never received eternal life.

There is a difference between an eternal existence and eternal life. God's life is eternal life, not just existence. And He gives this life to those who have believed. In fact, they have this eternal life the moment they believe, per John 5:24.

And there isn't any verse about God "killing" this life that is eternal, or taking it away from anyone who possesses it.

If words do mean things, then we have absolute certainty that those who receive eternal life will have it eternally. For that is precisely what "eternal" means. Nothing less.

 

[for_his_glory]

That's not "eternal life". It is an eternal existence, but the Bible never describes the LoF as "life".

It's not eternal life as an eternal life with Christ, but that of an eternal torment in the sense of spending an eternal miserable life being tormented day and night. No, scripture never calls it an eternal life in the lake of fire, but the scenario would be that of the complete opposite of the eternal life with Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

You still have not explained HOW eternal LIFE can exist in the second DEATH.

That's because you don't seem to understand the meaning of 'death'.

 

[JLB]

You still have not explained HOW eternal LIFE can exist in the second DEATH.

I don't have to explain HOW eternal life can exist in the second death, which is the lake of fire.

I just have a scripture that tells me; BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS WHO TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WILL BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT WILL RISE FOREVER.

How, why, all this comes about... if eternal life stays with them or if eternal life leaves them or if eternal life has to remain in them so they can exist in the lake of fire, rather than burn up, is all up to the Lord.


The part that we need to understand in what He has revealed, which is ;
BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS WHO TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WILL BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT WILL RISE FOREVER.

This is what is revealed to us.

Here is what else is revealed to us -

...If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19


Just so you know, if you are taken out of the book of life, you yourself will partake of the lake of fire.

...anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

Before you start "redefining" words and phrases and verse's of scripture, you might want to think very hard about it first.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

It's not eternal life as an eternal life with Christ, but that of an eternal torment in the sense of spending an eternal miserable life being tormented day and night. No, scripture never calls it an eternal life in the lake of fire, but the scenario would be that of the complete opposite of the eternal life with Christ.

The fact that Scripture describes existence in the LoF as the "second DEATH" should quell any idea that there is "life" in the LoF. It is an existence; not a life.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's because you don't seem to understand the meaning of 'death'.

Eternal life is God's life. God's life cannot exist in the "second death".

Physical death is separation of soul from the body.
Spiritual death is separation from God.

Those who have God's life (eternal) cannot be separated from Him in eternity.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't have to explain HOW eternal life can exist in the second death, which is the lake of fire.

Well, that's the OP. If you are either unable to, or simply don't want to, then please don't clutter up the thread.

I just have a scripture that tells me; BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS WHO TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WILL BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT WILL RISE FOREVER.

Sure, sure. What verse says that "born again Christians who take the mark of the beast…"??

How, why, all this comes about... if eternal life stays with them or if eternal life leaves them or if eternal life has to remain in them so they can exist in the lake of fire, rather than burn up, is all up to the Lord.

So, obviously, you have no answer to your assumption about eternal life existing in the second DEATH.

Just so you know, if you are taken out of the book of life, you yourself will partake of the lake of fire.

...anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

And, just so you know, there are no verses about anyone being taken out of the book of life. Once again, you're just assuming stuff.

 

[Butch5]

This is a philosophical, not theological, question. The Bible speaks of both eternal life (Rom 6:23), and the second death (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8) which is also called the Lake of Fire (Rev 9:20, 20:10, 14, 15). The LoF is also described as the "eternal fire" (Matt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

Therefore, if one answers no, please explain why not. If one answers yes, please explain why it can or does.

Thanks.

Life and death are mutually exclusive.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

And, just so you know, there are no verses about anyone being taken out of the book of life. Once again, you're just assuming stuff.

and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19



More redefining?


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is a philosophical, not theological, question. The Bible speaks of both eternal life (Rom 6:23), and the second death (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8) which is also called the Lake of Fire (Rev 9:20, 20:10, 14, 15). The LoF is also described as the "eternal fire" (Matt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

Therefore, if one answers no, please explain why not. If one answers yes, please explain why it can or does.

Thanks.

Yes eternal life can exist in the second death.

God is eternal life and He has overcome death, and can exist in the lake of fire because He is an all consuming fire.

The lake of fire can not exist without God.


JLB

 

[Edward]

The second death is when the unbeliever is thrown into the lake of fire/hell.They will have eternal life in that place of eternal torment.The flame will never go out.It will be forever and ever that they will be conscious of where they are and suffer.
Matthew 25:41
Daniel 12:2
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Revelation 14:10-11
Revelation 20:10
The second death is not death such as you no longer exist it is the separation from God and your soul exists in hell forever.

That's how I see it also. that's not life, being forever separated from God and in torment. that's death brothers and sisters. regardless of if you are conscious or not.

I disagree that existence in the LoF is having "eternal life". They certainly will exist forever in that place, but the basic meaning of "death" is 'separation'. Physically, that means the soul being separated from the body (James 2:26). Spiritually, that means the person being separated from God. So, those in the LoF don't have "life", because they will be eternally separated from God. Which is why the Bible describes it as the "second death".

Amen brother. That is what the condemned will face. Eternal separation from God.
On the other hand, the real reward for us in heaven is not that we escaped death or get to remain conscious for eternity, but to be able to dwell in Gods presence. Everything that I have ever read or watched about people who have been in God's presence, have all said the same thing...the overwhelming feeling of total love and acceptance that permeates ones being and is so good of a feeling that they do not want to come back.

Even Moses in scripture, it says that when he came back down off of the mountain...he radiated light from being in the presence of god. he had to put a veil over his face to cover it so that people could look at him. Being in the presence of God is an awesome experience. That's life, brothers and sisters.

 

[JLB]

That's how I see it also. that's not life, being forever separated from God and in torment. that's death brothers and sisters. regardless of if you are conscious or not.



Amen brother. That is what the condemned will face. Eternal separation from God.
On the other hand, the real reward for us in heaven is not that we escaped death or get to remain conscious for eternity, but to be able to dwell in Gods presence. Everything that I have ever read or watched about people who have been in God's presence, have all said the same thing...the overwhelming feeling of total love and acceptance that permeates ones being and is so good of a feeling that they do not want to come back.

Even Moses in scripture, it says that when he came back down off of the mountain...he radiated light from being in the presence of god. he had to put a veil over his face to cover it so that people could look at him. Being in the presence of God is an awesome experience. That's life, brothers and sisters.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

 

[Kathi]

LoF. Those who have never believed never received eternal life.

There is a difference between an eternal existence and eternal life. God's life is eternal life, not just existence. And He gives this life to those who have believed. In fact, they have this eternal life the moment they believe, per John 5:24.

And there isn't any verse about God "killing" this life that is eternal, or taking it away from anyone who possesses it.

If words do mean things, then we have absolute certainty that those who receive eternal life will have it eternally. For that is precisely what "eternal" means. Nothing less.

WOW you have given me a headache.Who has been teaching you this stuff?

 

[JLB]

WOW you have given me a headache.Who has been teaching you this stuff?

 

[n2thelight]

The lake of fire is the 2nd death,ie,the death of the soul and it's not simply seperation from God,it means what it says,death.....We do not automatically posses imortality,it is gift, given to us by God...

The bottom line is that nowhere does the Bible state that the human soul, once created, is immortal and can never die. Nephesh, the Hebrew word for “soul,” appears over 750 times in the Old Testament and psuche, the Greek word for “soul,” appears over 100 times in the New Testament. These over 850 references should tell us all we need to know about the soul, yet none say anything about it being immortal by nature. If the immortal soul doctrine is true, why did God inspire hundreds of references to the soul without mentioning anything about it being inherently immortal?

On the contrary, as already pointed out, God plainly stated to Adam, who was a “living soul,” that he would “surely die” if he sinned (Genesis 2:17). He also stated in Ezekiel 18:4,20 that “the soul (nephesh) who sins… will die.” And, as we’ve already observed, Jesus plainly declared that God would “destroy both soul (psuche) and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28). A usual knee-jerk, but hollow, response is to argue that these Scriptures “are taken out of context.” I would like to use this same argument by pointing out that biblical references to the immortal soul are taken out of context, but I can’t because no such passages exist!

Obviously this idea that a human soul cannot die or be destroyed is alien to the God-breathed Scriptures.

Please read the below link for more on the subject

http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/hell

 

[Sinthesis]

OK, you didn't read the OP carefully. So, here is the definitions. Eternal life is God's life, as He is eternal. He gives this life to those who believe in Christ. The second death is the LoF, where those who never believed never obtained God's life, which is eternal life.

Now, with these definitions, care to re-think your answer?

From your only verse defining eternal life in the OP (Rom6:23) we see that "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." However this single verse doesn't rule out a logical alternate possibility for the wicked, whereas "the judgement of God is also eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, but in which the quality of the condemned's eternal life is quite hellish. So the answer can still be 'yes'.

 

[Sinthesis]

And then, of course, we have the Immortal Worms of Gehenna.

Mar 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​