Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

Was Jesus' death on the cross and the shedding of his blood sufficient to provide eternal salvation (i.e. eternal life) for angels?

Oz

Why would angels in the third heaven with God need Gods salvation. I was going in a different direction when I asked FreeGrace that question as fallen angels, which include Satan, will be cast into the lake of fire prepared for them.

 

[n2thelight]

Posted by the one who apparently never read these verses: Mark 9:44,46,48, or this: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10.

Following this verse is the passage on the Great White Throne Judgment, where all unsaved are cast into the same LoF, in which "their worm never dies".

As Jesus told some Sadduccees, "you are sadly mistaken".

So in your world,death dos'nt mean death......As for forever and ever

JUDE 7 (KJV)
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning????????

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

The word perish means what to you?

 

[n2thelight]

Life and Death: The Two Polar Opposites
The apostle Paul summed up the whole matter of people’s reward for sin when he wrote:
ROMANS 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Could anything be clearer than this passage? The wages for sin is shown to be death, and eternal life is stated to be a gift from God, not something people already have. This is consistently expressed from Genesis to Revelation, notice:

MATTHEW 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, (14) but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

JOHN 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

ROMANS 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

GALATIANS 6:8
The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.

PSALM 145:20 (NKJV)
The LORD preserves all who love Him, but all the wicked He will destroy.

PROVERBS 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.

NOTE: See the commentary on this proverb in the appendix Old Testament Hell Verses if you don’t believe it is applicable to us today in an absolute sense.

All these passages clearly describe the two separate destinies of the righteous and the unrighteous. The “righteous” are people who are in right-standing with God because they’ve accepted his sacrifice for their sins*, the “unrighteous” are those who are not in-right-standing with their Creator because they’ve rejected his offer of salvation. The former will inherit eternal life, whereas the latter will reap the wages of sin and be destroyed.

http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/hell/annihilationism-traditionalism-problem-hell​

 

[n2thelight]

HEBREWS 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Those who believe will be saved from the second death and granted eternal life whereas those who do not will be destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire. It’s that simple. Why do religionists insist on making this simple truth so complicated and perverse?

MATTHEW 10:28
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One [God] who can destroy both soul and body in hell

Unless one comes up with a different meaning for the word destroyed

Scripture has rested my case!!!!

 

[JLB]

onelove said -

JUDE 7 (KJV)
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning????????

By asking "is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning", it's clear you missed what this scripture actually said -

giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Does a city fornicate and go after strange flesh?

The people who did these things is what is being referred to here, not the actual city.

An actual city does not go after strange flesh, which is to say, "have homosexual relations".

The people in the city are the ones who did these things.

It is the people in these city's who will burn in everlasting fire.

An example: these people will be destroyed by everlasting fire.


Destroy forever. Everlasting destruction. Destruction that is continual and will last forever.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The burden of proof is on you, to show how the devil can in fact exist forever in the lake of fire apart from eternal life sustaining him eternally there in that place forever.

I've actually already proven that eternal life CANNOT be called DEATH. They're in my posts.

The burden of proof remains on anyone who claims that eternal life will ever be in the second DEATH. It's a complete contradiction of terms.

Chapter and verse please!

Read my posts, please.

How can God's life, which is eternal, experience the second death? That isn't possible. And the burden of proof is on you to refute that.

 

[TimothyW]

This is a philosophical, not theological, question. The Bible speaks of both eternal life (Rom 6:23), and the second death (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8) which is also called the Lake of Fire (Rev 9:20, 20:10, 14, 15). The LoF is also described as the "eternal fire" (Matt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

Therefore, if one answers no, please explain why not. If one answers yes, please explain why it can or does.

Thanks.

Eternal life is life that is eternal. The second death is death that is eternal. People who are dead are not alive. This obvious statement should go without saying, but this is the internet, so everything has to be spelled out. Dead people are not alive. Living people are alive. People who have perished are not alive. People who were dead, but resurrected to life are no longer dead, they are alive. People who were alive and then died are dead. People who were alive, then died, and then are resurrected to life are alive again. People who were alive and then died, are resurrected and then die a second death are not alive. They are dead.

So no, eternal life will not exist for those who will have died the second death.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,

One needs to define a word to understand what it means. Scripture never says what we will look like in the resurrection of life or damnation.

The OP isn't about how one looks. Not relevant.

Matthew 13:42 says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth from those who are cast into the lake of fire so that one verse alone shows me they will have life, but no one knows what they will look like.

Again, this isn't about looks. As to life, it will be life APART from God, which the Bible itself describes the LoF as the second DEATH.

Are you arguing that life and death can be the same thing????

Exist: to have actual being or reality; to live
Existence: the fact or state of existing, living or occurring the manner of existing

The OP is clear about the life I'm talking about. God's life, which is eternal. Yes, many will exist in the second death, which is also eternal, but NOT with God's life, for sure.

The rest of these verses are pertinent to that of the resurrection of life both in the New Jerusalem and the lake of fire.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Here dust + breath from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I see no relevance of these verses to the OP.

Life without God is called death in Scripture. Separation from God. Eternal life is God's life. Those who possess eternal life have God's life and are qualified (Col 1:12) to live with God forever (eternally).

Those who don't possess eternal life will experience the second DEATH.

In fact, Scripture is clear; those who never believed do NOT have LIFE.

Jn 5:40 - And ye will not come to me, that ye might have LIFE.

Jn 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It is clear that Scripture does not view existence in the LoF as "life", but rather, as DEATH.

 

[FreeGrace]

So in your world,death dos'nt mean death......As for forever and ever

Yes, it does. Forever and ever APART FROM GOD. Please read the OP carefully. Separation from God is spiritual DEATH, just as the soul being separated from the body is physical DEATH.

JUDE 7 (KJV)
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Yep, an eternity separated from God.

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning????????

Jude 7 is about those who lived in S&G. They will suffer an eternity apart from God.

II Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

The word perish means what to you?

Same as the lexicon 1e:
apollumi

1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

What does it mean to you in 2 Pet 3:9?

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal life is life that is eternal. The second death is death that is eternal. People who are dead are not alive. This obvious statement should go without saying, but this is the internet, so everything has to be spelled out. Dead people are not alive. Living people are alive. People who have perished are not alive. People who were dead, but resurrected to life are no longer dead, they are alive. People who were alive and then died are dead. People who were alive, then died, and then are resurrected to life are alive again. People who were alive and then died, are resurrected and then die a second death are not alive. They are dead.

So no, eternal life will not exist for those who will have died the second death.

Well said, TimW. And, nice ride!!

 

[TimothyW]

Well said, TimW. And, nice ride!!

Thanks, I was afraid the ride was too long, too winding. Too obvious.

I went to the website that "onelove" posted http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/#J
and I found this, in answer to the question "Do those who have died the second death have eternal life?"

Those who wrongly believe in immortality for all from birth must reinterpret the Bible to say:

Those who are destroyed are not destroyed. (James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7)

Those who perish do not perish. (1 Corinthians 1:8: John 3:16)

Those who die do not die. (Romans 6:23)

The end of the wicked is not really their end. (Philippians 3:19; Hebrews 6:8)

Those who are consumed are not consumed. (Hebrews 10:27)

Mortals are born immortal; (1 Timothy 6:16) therefore, how can there be any such thing as being mortal? There are no mortals and could never be a mortal if all men are created immortal.

The second death is not a death; it is eternal life with torment. (Revelation 21:8)​

Are they really teaching the Bible when they corrupt it into saying the opposite of what it really says, or teaching what they want the Bible to say?

Source: The Resurrection and Immortality, William West, Xulon Press, 2006, various excerpts from chapter two. See www.robertwr.com for more information.​

 

[JLB]

I've actually already proven that eternal life CANNOT be called DEATH. They're in my posts.

The burden of proof remains on anyone who claims that eternal life will ever be in the second DEATH. It's a complete contradiction of terms.


Read my posts, please.

How can God's life, which is eternal, experience the second death? That isn't possible. And the burden of proof is on you to refute that.

I've read your post's, and see no scripture that says something other than eternal life sustains the devil to exist forever in the lake of fire.

Please just name for us what it is that's sustains the devil in the lake of fire, so that he can remain in that place forever.

Please just show this supposed scripture that you posted, that proves the devil can exist in the lake of fire forever, apart from eternal life.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Thanks, I was afraid the ride was too long, too winding. Too obvious.

I went to the website that "onelove" posted http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/#J
and I found this, in answer to the question "Do those who have died the second death have eternal life?"

Those who wrongly believe in immortality for all from birth must reinterpret the Bible to say:

Those who are destroyed are not destroyed. (James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7)

Those who perish do not perish. (1 Corinthians 1:8: John 3:16)

Those who die do not die. (Romans 6:23)

The end of the wicked is not really their end. (Philippians 3:19; Hebrews 6:8)

Those who are consumed are not consumed. (Hebrews 10:27)

Mortals are born immortal; (1 Timothy 6:16) therefore, how can there be any such thing as being mortal? There are no mortals and could never be a mortal if all men are created immortal.

The second death is not a death; it is eternal life with torment. (Revelation 21:8)​

Are they really teaching the Bible when they corrupt it into saying the opposite of what it really says, or teaching what they want the Bible to say?​

Yes, this is the real source of the issue. People read into Scripture what they want it to say or mean, rather than accept what it clearly says. ​

 

[FreeGrace]

I've read your post's, and see no scripture that says something other than eternal life sustains the devil to exist forever in the lake of fire.

Please just name for us what it is that's sustains the devil in the lake of fire, so that he can remain in that place forever.

Please just show this supposed scripture that you posted, that proves the devil can exist in the lake of fire forever, apart from eternal life.


JLB

Please read post #67 and 71 from Tim. The issue is very clear. If you can refute from Scripture what he has posted, please do. Just giving your opinion or disagreement doesn't equal a refutation.

The issue here that you are fighting against is calling existence in the LoF, also called DEATH, life. So, to you, death and life are synonymous, obviously. That is contradictory.

Eteral life and eternal existence are not the same thing. God's life is eternal. And He gives it to those who have believed in His Son. Not everyone has eternal life. Did you read the verses I cited, Jn 3:36 and 5:40? Your argument is with the One who spoke those verses, Jesus.

 

[TimothyW]

Yes, this is the real source of the issue. People read into Scripture what they want it to say or mean, rather than accept what it clearly says. ​

I agree.

"Life" and "Death" are opposites.
The tapdance begins when people want deny this.

 

[for_his_glory]

The OP isn't about how one looks. Not relevant.


Again, this isn't about looks. As to life, it will be life APART from God, which the Bible itself describes the LoF as the second DEATH.

Are you arguing that life and death can be the same thing????


The OP is clear about the life I'm talking about. God's life, which is eternal. Yes, many will exist in the second death, which is also eternal, but NOT with God's life, for sure.


I see no relevance of these verses to the OP.

Life without God is called death in Scripture. Separation from God. Eternal life is God's life. Those who possess eternal life have God's life and are qualified (Col 1:12) to live with God forever (eternally).

Those who don't possess eternal life will experience the second DEATH.

In fact, Scripture is clear; those who never believed do NOT have LIFE.

Jn 5:40 - And ye will not come to me, that ye might have LIFE.

Jn 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It is clear that Scripture does not view existence in the LoF as "life", but rather, as DEATH.

you said: As to life, it will be life APART from God, which the Bible itself describes the LoF as the second DEATH.
I'm confused by your statement here as now you are calling it life apart from God. Would that not make it an eternal life separated from God for eternity as one being cast into the lake of fire. Be careful for this is what you said in your statement. Naturally the eternal life in the lake of fire would never be the same as eternal life with the Father. That would just be plain stupid to think it would be the same.

One can not compare eternal life with the Father with eternal damnation in the lake of fire except that the two are opposite from each other. Those who are resurrected to be with the Lord will have an eternal life (existence) basking in Gods glory. Those who are cast in the lake of fire will not literally be consumed by an eternal literal fire as fire here means torment, destruction or as being destroyed or broken down like someone saying that we are going to destroy you and drag your name through the mud. They are not literally destroyed, but brought down to a lower level. Those in the lake of fire will have an existence of weeping and gnashing of teeth for the destruction and torment they will face for eternity. Death means separation from God as their eternal destiny (life) is the lake of fire. If death here meant not to exist anymore than what would be the purpose of the the second death and being resurrected to stand in the great white throne judgement. Couldn't God just make them vanish as if they never existed in the first place!

 

[FreeGrace]

you said: "As to life, it will be life APART from God, which the Bible itself describes the LoF as the second DEATH."
I'm confused by your statement here as now you are calling it life apart from God. Would that not make it an eternal life separated from God for eternity as one being cast into the lake of fire.

TimW's posts #67 and 71 are very clear, as were mine. How about this: as to life, it be an existence apart from God. Is that better.

Every soul created by God will exist somewhere for eternity. Those who have believed in Christ will have eternal life, which is God's life, and will live with Him for eternity.

Those who never believed do not have God's life, which is eternal life. They will spend eternity in the second death.

Death is not life. Existence in the LoF is death, not life.

Be careful for this is what you said in your statement. Naturally the eternal life in the lake of fire would never be the same as eternal life with the Father. That would just be plain stupid to think it would be the same.

The Bible never describes existence in the LoF as a life, much less eternal life. It is eternal death. That's where unbelievers will exist forever.

One can not compare eternal life with the Father with eternal damnation in the lake of fire except that the two are opposite from each other.

That is exactly my point.

Those who are resurrected to be with the Lord will have an eternal life (existence) basking in Gods glory. Those who are cast in the lake of fire will not literally be consumed by an eternal literal fire as fire here means torment, destruction or as being destroyed or broken down like someone saying that we are going to destroy you and drag your name through the mud. They are not literally destroyed, but brought down to a lower level. Those in the lake of fire will have an existence of weeping and gnashing of teeth for the destruction and torment they will face for eternity. Death means separation from God as their eternal destiny (life) is the lake of fire. If death here meant not to exist anymore than what would be the purpose of the the second death and being resurrected to stand in the great white throne judgement.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.

Couldn't God just make them vanish as if they never existed in the first place!

But He didn't.

 

[TimothyW]

I don't think that those who die the second death in the lake of fire will continue to exist in it. I believe that the fire will consume them, until there is nothing left.
The smoke of their torment continues up forever, their torment does not. They will perish in the lake of fire and will be no more.
John 3:16 whoever believes in him shall not perish...
Psalm 37:20 the wicked will be destroyed...
Psalm 37:10 the wicked will be no more...

I know that this is not what most people believe about hell, but this is what the Bible says.
There isn't any verse in the Bible that says that the lost will continue to exist forever, and plenty of scripture that proves that they will not.

 

[JLB]

I've actually already proven that eternal life CANNOT be called DEATH. They're in my posts.

The burden of proof remains on anyone who claims that eternal life will ever be in the second DEATH. It's a complete contradiction of terms.


Read my posts, please.

How can God's life, which is eternal, experience the second death? That isn't possible. And the burden of proof is on you to refute that.

I've read your post's, and see no scripture that says something other than eternal life sustains the devil to exist forever in the lake of fire.

Please just name for us what it is that's sustains the devil in the lake of fire, so that he can remain in that place forever.

Please just show this supposed scripture that you posted, that proves the devil can exist in the lake of fire forever, apart from eternal life.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

First, let’s give some Biblical definitions to these two terms (Eternal Life and Second Death) since it seems that life = death isn't logical. Maybe the Biblical definitions differ somewhat:

1. Eternal Life =

knowing the only true God, The Father and Jesus Christ, whom The Father sent.

John 17:3 (LEB) Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.​

passing from death to Life through this belief/knowing

John 5:24 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 6:47 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.​

a special gift of belief that comes from the triune God; The Son gives because The Father sealed The Son and The Spirit for this designate purpose, a long time ago.

John 6:27 (LEB) Do not work for the food that perishes, but the food that remains to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has set his seal on this one.”
Galatians 6:8 (LEB) … the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Romans 2:7 (LEB) to those who… seek … immortality, eternal life
Titus 1:2 (LEB) in the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before eternal ages,​

is designated by God to be given to some people, not all (people do NOT have eternal life inherent from the 1st Adam or his descendants).

Acts 13:48 (LEB) … And all those who were designated for eternal life believed.
Matt 19:16 (LEB) And behold, someone came up to him and said, “Teacher, what good thing must I do so that I will have eternal life?”
John 4:14 (LEB) But whoever drinks of this water which I will give to him will never be thirsty for eternity, but the water which I will give to him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”​

a promised gift from God that’s as eternal and true as Jesus Christ is eternal and true.

Romans 6:23 (LEB) … the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 5:11(LEB) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 2:25 (LEB) And this is the promise which he himself promised us: eternal life.
Titus 1:2 (LEB) in the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before eternal ages,​

Gosh, that’s a mouthful of a definition. It’s no wonder that the actual Biblical definition of “eternal life” can be (and was) summarized as John does with;

1. (Summary.) Eternal Life = The One True God (Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah)

1 John 5:20 (LEB) … Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.​

2. the Second Death =

Lake of Fire = Eternal Fire = Eternal Destruction = Eternal Punishment = the final/fearful/everlasting Judgment of God upon the accursed ones and their penalty away from the presence of the Lord imposed upon all those that do not have the gift of Eternal Life (see definition above) .​

Revelation 20:14 (LEB)… This is the second death—the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 (LEB) … be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 25:41(LEB) Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (LEB) who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

So using these definitions (hold on to your hat all those who have answered yes to the OP question) here’s the OP question re-phrased using the quite literal Biblical definitions I’ve provided above:

'Can The One True God exist away from the presence of the Lord?' No!

Which is why it’s a contradiction of terms to think that death = life in the first place either by their common sense definitions or the Biblical definitions. It’s an obvious contradiction of terms/definitions, Biblically speaking. So if a justified answer = Yes doesn't come from common sense or the Bible, where does it come from?

Death = the end of life : the time when someone or something dies
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/death