Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[OzSpen]

The lake of fire is the 2nd death,ie,the death of the soul and it's not simply seperation from God,it means what it says,death.....We do not automatically posses imortality,it is gift, given to us by God...

The bottom line is that nowhere does the Bible state that the human soul, once created, is immortal and can never die. Nephesh, the Hebrew word for “soul,” appears over 750 times in the Old Testament and psuche, the Greek word for “soul,” appears over 100 times in the New Testament. These over 850 references should tell us all we need to know about the soul, yet none say anything about it being immortal by nature. If the immortal soul doctrine is true, why did God inspire hundreds of references to the soul without mentioning anything about it being inherently immortal?

On the contrary, as already pointed out, God plainly stated to Adam, who was a “living soul,” that he would “surely die” if he sinned (Genesis 2:17). He also stated in Ezekiel 18:4,20 that “the soul (nephesh) who sins… will die.” And, as we’ve already observed, Jesus plainly declared that God would “destroy both soul (psuche) and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28). A usual knee-jerk, but hollow, response is to argue that these Scriptures “are taken out of context.” I would like to use this same argument by pointing out that biblical references to the immortal soul are taken out of context, but I can’t because no such passages exist!

Obviously this idea that a human soul cannot die or be destroyed is alien to the God-breathed Scriptures.

Please read the below link for more on the subject

http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/hell

onelove,

There is only one Person who is truly immortal – God Himself, as stated in 1 Tim. 6:15-16 (ESV), “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion.” Therefore, only God is immortal in the sense that He is the Owner and Originator of human life and he Himself has always existed and will always continue to exist.

Our 'immortality' of the soul can be only in a derived sense and applies to all people, believers and unbelievers. Second Timothy 1:10 (ESV) speaks of God’s purpose and grace “which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel”.

The OT affirms the hope of life after death in bodily terms. The doctrine of OT immortality is seen mostly in view of resurrection. Since human beings were created from the dust (Gen. 2:7), the expectation was that they would return to dust (Eccl. 12:7 ESV). However, this latter verse also teaches that “the spirit returns to God who gave it”. Therefore, the OT teaching does not support soul sleep, extinction or annihilation, but the human spirit going to God at death.

Christ believed that the OT taught resurrection when he refuted the Sadducees. He told them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God” (Matt. 22:29 ESV). Then Jesus quoted Exodus 3:6, 15: “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not God of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32 ESV).

Note especially the closing statement here: “He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” The dead are living!!

The NT teaches immortality after the resurrection, but it also teaches the conscious existence of the soul between death and the resurrection, in what is known as the intermediate state.

Christ’s promise to the thief on the cross was “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43 ESV). Stephen, the martyr, prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” (Acts 7:59 ESV). He did not pray, “Lord Jesus, send me to the grave to sleep until the resurrection of the just and unjust or zap me out of existence”.

Paul’s classic statement of the immortality of the soul is in 2 Cor. 5:8 (ESV), “Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” Paul as he was contemplating his own death, wrote: “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better” (Phil. 1:23 ESV). There is no hint in Paul’s teaching of going to sleep in the grave before the resurrection of the just. He knew that when he died he would “be with Christ.” How does that compare with this life? It is “far better.”

I could go on with more evidence to demonstrate that death does not mean the cessation of existence for believer or unbeliever. But I've probably given too much information already with this post.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

And then, of course, we have the Immortal Worms of Gehenna.

Mar 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

So what are you affirming with the quotation of this verse?

 

[OzSpen]

Yes eternal life can exist in the second death.

God is eternal life and He has overcome death, and can exist in the lake of fire because He is an all consuming fire.

The lake of fire can not exist without God.

JLB

JLB,

I'm of the view that Scripture teaches that this hell fire language is metaphorical. I've written a recent article on this: Is there literal fire in hell?

Oz

 

[JLB]

JLB,

I'm of the view that Scripture teaches that this hell fire language is metaphorical. I've written a recent article on this: Is there literal fire in hell?

Oz

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

and again -


If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12


He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;


You know what they say; where there's smoke there's fire!


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

and again -

If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;

You know what they say; where there's smoke there's fire!

JLB

You have not dealt with the content of my post.

Or do you not understand what metaphorical interpretation means?

Oz

 

[FreeGrace]

Life and death are mutually exclusive.

Exactly!

 

[FreeGrace]

More redefining?JLB

There is no "redefining". Words have meaning within context, which you choose to ignore.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes eternal life can exist in the second death.

This would be DEAD wrong, of course.

God is eternal life and He has overcome death, and can exist in the lake of fire because He is an all consuming fire.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The lake of fire can not exist without God.

Nothing can exist without God. John 1:3 - 3All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

But this doesn't support your assumption. Life and death are mutually exclusive.

 

[FreeGrace]

WOW you have given me a headache.Who has been teaching you this stuff?

Uh, what seems to be the problem? Please clarify. I'm sorry that you have a headache, but I didn't give it to you. In my profession, I remove headaches, seriously.

Maybe the reason you get a headache from my posts is because of what you haven't been taught. \

Could you identify specifically what you disagree with in my post #24, the one that gave you the headache?

 

[FreeGrace]

Obviously this idea that a human soul cannot die or be destroyed is alien to the God-breathed Scriptures.

Posted by the one who apparently never read these verses: Mark 9:44,46,48, or this: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10.

Following this verse is the passage on the Great White Throne Judgment, where all unsaved are cast into the same LoF, in which "their worm never dies".

As Jesus told some Sadduccees, "you are sadly mistaken".

 

[FreeGrace]

I posted this;
OK, you didn't read the OP carefully. So, here is the definitions. Eternal life is God's life, as He is eternal. He gives this life to those who believe in Christ. The second death is the LoF, where those who never believed never obtained God's life, which is eternal life.

Now, with these definitions, care to re-think your answer?

From your only verse defining eternal life in the OP (Rom6:23) we see that "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

And I did give you the definitions, so your comment about my "only verse defining" ignores my post.

However this single verse doesn't rule out a logical alternate possibility for the wicked, whereas "the judgement of God is also eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, but in which the quality of the condemned's eternal life is quite hellish. So the answer can still be 'yes'.

I gave you the definitions. There wasn't a single verse, as you have claimed. But since you have chosen to ignore the definitions, I'm not surprised at your conclusion, which is wrong.

Eternal Life cannot be eternal death. Impossible contradiction.

 

[JLB]

This would be DEAD wrong, of course.


This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


Nothing can exist without God. John 1:3 - 3All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

But this doesn't support your assumption. Life and death are mutually exclusive.

Eternal life can exist in the lake of fire because the lake of fire exist's because of God, who is eternal life.

The devil himself will exist in the lake of fire forever, because eternal life within him, is the very cause of his existence.

The burden of proof is on you, to show how the devil can in fact exist forever in the lake of fire apart from eternal life sustaining him eternally there in that place forever.

If it is not eternal life sustaining the devil and his existence in the lake of fire, then what is it that is keeping him existing there, if not eternal life?


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

The fact that Scripture describes existence in the LoF as the "second DEATH" should quell any idea that there is "life" in the LoF. It is an existence; not a life.

Existing is still life, whether it be a glorified life in Christ (New Jerusalem) or one of damnation and torment in the lake of fire as both are eternal.

 

[for_his_glory]

FreeGrace I have a question for you. If God created all the angels would they not also have an eternal life with God, even though they are spirit?

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal life can exist in the lake of fire because the lake of fire exist's because of God, who is eternal life.

So, everything that God creates is eternal? That makes no sense. In fact, Rev 21:1 tells us that the present heaven and earth will pass away. That sure isn't eternal.

The devil himself will exist in the lake of fire forever, because eternal life within him, is the very cause of his existence.

This is absurd. Satan does NOT have eternal life within him. This demonstrates that you have no idea what eternal life even is. That is sad.

Though God's creatures will all live forever, satan, his angel followers and all who never believed will exist in the SECOND DEATH.

Apparently you don't understand the difference between LIFE and DEATH. They are NOT the same. Those who have eternal LIFE will live WITH God forever. Those who do NOT have eternal LIFE will NOT live with God forever. They will exist in the SECOND DEATH.

The burden of proof is on you, to show how the devil can in fact exist forever in the lake of fire apart from eternal life sustaining him eternally there in that place forever.

Please read my comments above. He does NOT have eternal life within him. If he did, he would have God's life, which he doesn't have.

In fact, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the devil has eternal life in him.

If it is not eternal life sustaining the devil and his existence in the lake of fire, then what is it that is keeping him existing there, if not eternal life?

It ain't life. It's an existence apart from God. God IS eternal life, and He gives this LIFE to whom He wants to, which happens to be those who have believed in His Son for it. Jn 6:40.

Unless and until you understand the vast difference between existence and God's LIFE, there can be no substantial dialogue.

 

[FreeGrace]

Existing is still life, whether it be a glorified life in Christ (New Jerusalem) or one of damnation and torment in the lake of fire as both are eternal.

Wrong. Eternal life is ONLY attributed to God. And He alone has the authority to give this LIFE to those He chooses to give it to.

There is God's life, which is eternal. And there is existence. Which is an eternity apart from God. Huge difference.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace I have a question for you. If God created all the angels would they not also have an eternal life with God, even though they are spirit?

All of God's creatures were given life, which will exist eternally. Those who will live with Him for eternity are called "elect angels", and those humans who have believed in Christ for eternal life are called the elect. ONLY those have eternal life.

All other creatures, angels and humans, will exist eternally. And the Bible clearly describes that as the SECOND DEATH.

Are you suggesting that the Bible's description of DEATH equals LIFE? That wouldn't make any sense.

Further, Matt 25:41 tells us that the LoF was created for the devil and his angels. So not all angels "have an eternal life with God" as your post states.

 

[OzSpen]

FreeGrace I have a question for you. If God created all the angels would they not also have an eternal life with God, even though they are spirit?

FHG,

Was Jesus' death on the cross and the shedding of his blood sufficient to provide eternal salvation (i.e. eternal life) for angels?

Oz

 

[JLB]

So, everything that God creates is eternal? That makes no sense. In fact, Rev 21:1 tells us that the present heaven and earth will pass away. That sure isn't eternal.


This is absurd. Satan does NOT have eternal life within him. This demonstrates that you have no idea what eternal life even is. That is sad.

Though God's creatures will all live forever, satan, his angel followers and all who never believed will exist in the SECOND DEATH.

Apparently you don't understand the difference between LIFE and DEATH. They are NOT the same. Those who have eternal LIFE will live WITH God forever. Those who do NOT have eternal LIFE will NOT live with God forever. They will exist in the SECOND DEATH.


Please read my comments above. He does NOT have eternal life within him. If he did, he would have God's life, which he doesn't have.

In fact, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the devil has eternal life in him.


It ain't life. It's an existence apart from God. God IS eternal life, and He gives this LIFE to whom He wants to, which happens to be those who have believed in His Son for it. Jn 6:40.

Unless and until you understand the vast difference between existence and God's LIFE, there can be no substantial dialogue.

The burden of proof is on you, to show how the devil can in fact exist forever in the lake of fire apart from eternal life sustaining him eternally there in that place forever.

Chapter and verse please!


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

FreeGrace,

One needs to define a word to understand what it means. Scripture never says what we will look like in the resurrection of life or damnation. Matthew 13:42 says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth from those who are cast into the lake of fire so that one verse alone shows me they will have life, but no one knows what they will look like. The rest of these verses are pertinent to that of the resurrection of life both in the New Jerusalem and the lake of fire.

Exist: to have actual being or reality; to live
Existence: the fact or state of existing, living or occurring the manner of existing

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Here dust + breath from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.