CAN God do the the logically impossible? Why / why not?

[KV-44-v1]

I have found nowhere in the Bible does it remotely indicate that He is not able to do the logically impossible.
The Bible basically says that what is impossible with man is possible with God. There is a notable lack of exception to what is possible with God in the verse(s).

Can man do the logically impossible? I think no, because man would then do something God could not, which is attack on God's power, and an insult to Him.

We can concieve the "logically impossible", and if the Ontological argument can support God's existence, it can absolutely support God's ability to do logically impossible things like make a square circle. So how come we can theorize and stuff about "logically impossible" yet somehow, God Who is INFINITELY POWERFUL can't make such? Sounds unbelievable.

If God wanted us to think there were things He actually couldn't, wouldnt He put it in the Bible?

I argue that He can because He is absolutely powerful. The only limits He has, He had on Himself. He can choose to 'break' these limits.

A God Who can do anything, logically possible or not logically possible, or something(s) else, is more powerful than One only limited to logically possible, right?

I am wary of this belief that appears to be "Weakening God" , in disguise. It really feels like humans trying to limit God with false knowledge and limited understanding.

Thanks for answering.
Praise Jesus our Savior!

 

[miamited]

Hi KV-44-v1

Probably should define what you mean by the 'logically impossible'. I mean, yes, God can do things that our minds consider to be logically impossible. Just the fact that we see the stars trillions upon trillions of miles away from us within the short span of 6,000 years, for the mind of man, is logically impossible. But since we do live and see those stars... we know that God can do it.

 

[Free]

I have found nowhere in the Bible does it remotely indicate that He is not able to do the logically impossible.
The Bible basically says that what is impossible with man is possible with God. There is a notable lack of exception to what is possible with God in the verse(s).

Can man do the logically impossible? I think no, because man would then do something God could not, which is attack on God's power, and an insult to Him.

We can concieve the "logically impossible", and if the Ontological argument can support God's existence, it can absolutely support God's ability to do logically impossible things like make a square circle. So how come we can theorize and stuff about "logically impossible" yet somehow, God Who is INFINITELY POWERFUL can't make such? Sounds unbelievable.

If God wanted us to think there were things He actually couldn't, wouldnt He put it in the Bible?

I argue that He can because He is absolutely powerful. The only limits He has, He had on Himself. He can choose to 'break' these limits.

A God Who can do anything, logically possible or not logically possible, or something(s) else, is more powerful than One only limited to logically possible, right?

I am wary of this belief that appears to be "Weakening God" , in disguise. It really feels like humans trying to limit God with false knowledge and limited understanding.

Thanks for answering.
Praise Jesus our Savior!

No, God cannot do the logically impossible. The issue here is that you don’t seem to fully understand the nature of logic. We are beings created in the image of God, so our ability to reason is from God himself; God is logic itself.

A circle, by definition, has no angles and no straight line segment. A square has four perpendicular angles and four straight sides if equal length. A square circle is a logical impossibility even for God. As C. S. Lewis said, nonsense is still nonsense even when it is spoken of about God. The problem posed is the issue, not our understanding of God.

You also contradict yourself. You’re arguing that God can do what is logically impossible, but then say that humans can’t “because man would then do something God could not.”

Your argument also is based on misunderstanding God. Omnipotence doesn’t mean that God can “do anything.” He cannot sin, lie, or be tempted by evil, for example, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t omnipotent. God cannot do anything that goes against his nature, which includes the logically impossible. Perhaps our definition of omnipotence needs to be adjusted to exclude the logically impossible, as some do, or at least understand it to mean simply that God is exceedingly powerful and the most powerful being in the universe. To be more biblical, we should understand omnipotence simply as God’s ability to do that which is consistent with his nature.

If God can do the logically impossible, then logic breaks down.

 

[KV-44-v1]

No, God cannot do the logically impossible.

Then God has hard limits. Imagine living with that thought.

The issue here is that you don’t seem to fully understand the nature of logic. We are beings created in the image of God, so our ability to reason is from God himself; God is logic itself.

But we humans have the ability to use logic. Are we using God? That's what seems to be inplied here.

A circle, by definition, has no angles and no straight line segment. A square has four perpendicular angles and four straight sides if equal length. A square circle is a logical impossibility even for God.

Why couldn't He do that? The notion He cannot do the "logically impossible" is just a belief, and is ironically illogical. How do you know it is a can not and not simply that He won't? He never sins, either, but that's not because He has some kind of hard limit. He hates sin. He has no desire to sin.
You are basically implying that God operates by "laws of physics".

So these "laws of physics" supposedly ""keeping God under their thumb"" are """"superior"""" to God? Unbelievable!

As C. S. Lewis said, nonsense is still nonsense even when it is spoken of about God. The problem posed is the issue, not our understanding of God.

Ive heard that cslewis was involved in some pagan stuff and that wiccans are taught material from his books. Not exactly a good source.

You also contradict yourself. You’re arguing that God can do what is logically impossible, but then say that humans can’t “because man would then do something God could not.”

No, I am referencing the premise that God "cant" do the logically impossible. Apologies for lack of further clarification, it happens to the best of us.

"Your argument also is based on misunderstanding God. Omnipotence doesn’t mean that God can “do anything.” He cannot sin, lie, or be tempted by evil, for example, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t omnipotent."

But then it's not Omnipotent, because Omni means all. Omni-logically-possible-potent (OLPP) or whichever should be the term you should use, then.

God cannot do anything that goes against his nature, which includes the logically impossible.

More like won't.
And people can and do sin. So are you implying people have powers that God does not? You are not making God look good by limiting Him. Athiests will laugh themselves silly over this limiting.

If God is controlled by His "laws of physics", then what are we praising God for? Is He not a """"puppet"""" of some laws of physics in your view? I cannot see any way to believe your doctrine without indirectly/unintentionally making God seem weaker.

Hint: Notice im using "laws of physics" as a reference to hard limits, LIKE physical laws, im not referencing actual physical laws.

Perhaps our definition of omnipotence needs to be adjusted to exclude the logically impossible, as some do, or at least understand it to mean simply that God is exceedingly powerful and the most powerful being in the universe.

That defies the very definition of the prefix "omni". Superpotent =/= Omnipotent.

To be more biblical, we should

Oh? How? What is impossible with man is possible with God. No exceptions. Possible does not mean He will do it though. It's very possible for God to flood the world. But He won't do it because He already did it and He made a promise He wishes to keep.

If God can do the logically impossible, then logic breaks down.

Why? What do you mean by the phrase "break down"? And why do you imply that logic is contingent on God being weak?? Where is that in the Bible?

 

[KV-44-v1]

I have found nowhere in the Bible does it remotely indicate that He is not able to do the logically impossible.
The Bible basically says that what is impossible with man is possible with God. There is a notable lack of exception to what is possible with God in the verse(s).

Answer pending.

Can man do the logically impossible? I think no, [because if man can, under the premise God cannot do the logically impossible,] then man would then do something God "could not", which is attack on God's power, and an insult to Him.

Answer pending.

We can concieve the "logically impossible", and if the Ontological argument can support God's existence, it can absolutely support God's ability to do logically impossible

If God wanted us to think there were things He actually couldn't, wouldnt He put it in the Bible?

Answers pending.

A God Who can do anything, logically possible or not logically possible, or something(s) else, is more powerful than One only limited to logically possible, right?

I am wary of this belief that appears to be "Weakening God" , in disguise. It really feels like humans trying to limit God with false knowledge and limited understanding.

Answers pending.

 

[Little Owl]

Can God....?

God is Sovereign Creator of all.
God can do anything.

 

[follower]

I have found nowhere in the Bible does it remotely indicate that He is not able to do the logically impossible.
The Bible basically says that what is impossible with man is possible with God. There is a notable lack of exception to what is possible with God in the verse(s).

Can man do the logically impossible? I think no, because man would then do something God could not, which is attack on God's power, and an insult to Him.

Can someone say to a mountain - be lifted up and cast into the sea ?
Is that logical ?

 

[follower]

Can God....?

God is Sovereign Creator of all.
God can do anything.

He can't save everybody. So many multitudes do not want to be healed, He will not force them to change.

 

[Whatever]

I agree with Free. Logic is simply man's ideas. We simply reason that A cannot be A and not A at the same time and in the same reference. Even our laws of physics are just our assumptions based on past experience.
The law of gravity says a 60 ton machine cannot fly through the air. But if another law (aerodynamics) counter acts that by providing lift on the wings, no laws are broken.

Also, Omni does mean all, but all powerful. That doesn't imply that the omnipotent person can do anything.
God is all powerful, but He is also all wise and holy. He doesn't need to play games like a child to say "let's
see if I can make a square circle." He is also Omniscient and knows if He can or not.

I agree with C. S. Lewis that these questions are just word games (despite your ad hominem fallacy against C. S. Lewis.)

 

[Free]

Then God has hard limits. Imagine living with that thought.

Not really. The problem is with problem of logical absurdity, not God.

But we humans have the ability to use logic. Are we using God? That's what seems to be inplied here.

Of course not and such isn’t implied. God is love, is he not? When we love are we therefore using God?

Why couldn't He do that?

Because circles and squares are mutually exclusive. Could God make a woman pregnant and not pregnant at the same time? Such an idea is a contradiction and logically absurd.

The notion He cannot do the "logically impossible" is just a belief, and is ironically illogical.

It’s a belief based on logic and is no way whatsoever illogical. What is illogical is positing that God and do the logically impossible.

How do you know it is a can not and not simply that He won't?

He cannot because it is logically impossible; it is nonsense.

He never sins, either, but that's not because He has some kind of hard limit. He hates sin. He has no desire to sin.

God cannot sin, otherwise he is not perfectly holy.

2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself. (ESV)

Heb 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. (ESV)

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. (ESV)

You are basically implying that God operates by "laws of physics".

Not at all. I’m implying the biblical teaching that God cannot go against his nature. If he could, he wouldn’t be God and would be completely untrustworthy and unknowable.

So these "laws of physics" supposedly ""keeping God under their thumb"" are """"superior"""" to God? Unbelievable!

No. Gos is the ground of all logic because it is a part of his nature, just as love and light are. Logic exists because God exists. God cannot do the logically impossible because the thought is logically absurd.

Ive heard that cslewis was involved in some pagan stuff and that wiccans are taught material from his books. Not exactly a good source.

Perhaps it would be best to not fallaciously poison the well or commit an ad hominem, especially in a discussion on logic.

No, I am referencing the premise that God "cant" do the logically impossible. Apologies for lack of further clarification, it happens to the best of us.

Fair enough.

But then it's not Omnipotent, because Omni means all. Omni-logically-possible-potent (OLPP) or whichever should be the term you should use, then.

Your understanding of omnipotence is incorrect. God cannot sin, lie, or be tempted by evil and you’re implying that that means he isn’t omnipotent. Do you really want to make that argument?

Omnipotence means God can only do that which is logically possible, which means he cannot go against his nature. He is infinitely more powerful than us, but in no way whatsoever does that mean that he can do absolutely anything.

More like won't.

No, cannot.

And people can and do sin. So are you implying people have powers that God does not?

Yes, in a sense, because we tend to do evil with our fallen, sinful natures. Ours is the lower nature; the higher nature is to be so holy that sin is impossible. The flip side is that God can only do good, which we cannot.

You are not making God look good by limiting Him.

You really need to more deeply study the nature of God, as your biblical understanding of him is insufficient.

Athiests will laugh themselves silly over this limiting.

Likely not. The intelligent ones would likely think a God who can do the logically impossible is nonsensical. If they laugh, I don’t care. We are to speak the truth, not keep silent in case people may laugh at it.

If God is controlled by His "laws of physics", then what are we praising God for? Is He not a """"puppet"""" of some laws of physics in your view? I cannot see any way to believe your doctrine without indirectly/unintentionally making God seem weaker.

That is an argument atheists often make, btw. That is not based on a biblical understanding of God. Logic is a part of God’s nature. He cannot cease to be logical anymore than he can cease to be loving or light or good or omnipresent.

Hint: Notice im using "laws of physics" as a reference to hard limits, LIKE physical laws, im not referencing actual physical laws.

Yes, I know.

That defies the very definition of the prefix "omni". Superpotent =/= Omnipotent.

Oh? How? What is impossible with man is possible with God. No exceptions. Possible does not mean He will do it though. It's very possible for God to flood the world. But He won't do it because He already did it and He made a promise He wishes to keep.

Imcorrect. Again, your understanding of God is deficient, as is your understanding of logic.

Why? What do you mean by the phrase "break down"?

By breakdown I mean logic itself ceases to be logical; it becomes a meaningless idea and ceases to exist.

And why do you imply that logic is contingent on God being weak?? Where is that in the Bible?

I implied no such thing.

I highly recommend you read Logic, by Vern S. Poythress.

 

[Free]

Can God....?

God is Sovereign Creator of all.
God can do anything.

Can he sin? Can he lie? Can he be tempted by evil? Can he go against his nature?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Can he sin? Can he lie? Can he be tempted by evil? Can he go against his nature?

He can't because He won't. He could if He wanted to. God has no desire to do those things.
Can i burn down my house? I could if i want to. But i desire to NOT do such.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Not really. The problem is with problem of logical absurdity, not God.

But if God has a "problem of logical absurdity" then yes, that is implying that He has a hard limit. Is it not logically absurd to suggest otherwise?

Of course not and such isn’t implied. God is love, is He not? When we love are we therefore using God?

Ok
But nowhere in the Bible does it say God IS logic itself? Why can we think about concepts like "logically absurd"? If we can think of them then why "can't" God enact them? Is it logically possible to be eternal, is it logically possible for free will existing and God to be Omniscient at the same time? Probably both are, but if they aren't then theres proof He can do such.

Because circles and squares are mutually exclusive.

Could God make a woman pregnant and not pregnant at the same time? Such an idea is a contradiction and logically absurd.

It’s a belief based on logic and is no way whatsoever illogical. What is illogical is positing that God and do the logically impossible.


He cannot because it is logically impossible; it is nonsense.


God cannot sin, otherwise he is not perfectly holy.

2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself. (ESV)

Heb 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. (ESV)

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. (ESV)


Not at all. I’m implying the biblical teaching that God cannot go against his nature. If he could, he wouldn’t be God and would be completely untrustworthy and unknowable.


No. Gos is the ground of all logic because it is a part of his nature, just as love and light are. Logic exists because God exists. God cannot do the logically impossible because the thought is logically absurd.


Perhaps it would be best to not fallaciously poison the well or commit an ad hominem, especially in a discussion on logic.


Fair enough.


Your understanding of omnipotence is incorrect. God cannot sin, lie, or be tempted by evil and you’re implying that that means he isn’t omnipotent. Do you really want to make that argument?

Omnipotence means God can only do that which is logically possible, which means he cannot go against his nature. He is infinitely more powerful than us, but in no way whatsoever does that mean that he can do absolutely anything.


No, cannot.


Yes, in a sense, because we tend to do evil with our fallen, sinful natures. Ours is the lower nature; the higher nature is to be so holy that sin is impossible. The flip side is that God can only do good, which we cannot.


You really need to more deeply study the nature of God, as your biblical understanding of him is insufficient.


Likely not. The intelligent ones would likely think a God who can do the logically impossible is nonsensical. If they laugh, I don’t care. We are to speak the truth, not keep silent in case people may laugh at it.


That is an argument atheists often make, btw. That is not based on a biblical understanding of God. Logic is a part of God’s nature. He cannot cease to be logical anymore than he can cease to be loving or light or good or omnipresent.


Yes, I know.


Imcorrect. Again, your understanding of God is deficient, as is your understanding of logic.


By breakdown I mean logic itself ceases to be logical; it becomes a meaningless idea and ceases to exist.


I implied no such thing.

I highly recommend you read Logic, by Vern S. Poythress.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Not really. The problem is with problem of logical absurdity, not God.


Of course not and such isn’t implied. God is love, is he not? When we love are we therefore using God?


Because circles and squares are mutually exclusive.

God could dissolve said exclusivity. Just because we, personally, cannot fully comprehend that, does not limit God. We can't fully comprehend God either. And besides, some athiests argue His very Existence is "logically impossible".

Could God make a woman pregnant and not pregnant at the same time? Such an idea is a contradiction and logically absurd.

Absolutely. No, it would not be absurd, it would be God showing that He can do anything He wants to. Can God make new things without needing existing things?
Doing so is impossible with man. But it is possible with God. "Whatever....", not "whatever with exceptions".

It’s a belief based on logic and is no way whatsoever illogical. What is illogical is positing that God and do the logically impossible.

It is illogical to belittle God. It is based on finite human knowledge. What do you think muslims reaction will be when they find out this belief?
The ontological argument goes that God is the greatest concievable Being.

So then a God who CAN do all logically impossible AND possible things is greater than one who cannot do either. Therefore God can truly do all things. Just like the Bible says.
When was the "God has hard limits" belief invented?

He cannot because it is logically impossible; it is nonsense.

"He cant because something that is not God makes it so He cant". How is that not weakening God?
But, if under the premise God IS logic, then you are confirming that God effectively cannot because He will not.
Also, Circular reasoning.
Premise 1: A thing is logically impossible.
Premise 2: God cannot do the logically impossible.
Conclusion: God must not be able to do it.


So if your belief is correct, everything is somehow logically possible. The "logically impossible" is then something humans made up to gloat about how God has limits besides His desires.
But if its incorrect then its incorrect.

So can God do the "logically impossible" or is the concept of "logically impossible" a manmade invention? Pick one, it's logically impossible for both to be true!
But only God has the ability to make both be true, yes?

God cannot sin, otherwise he is not perfectly holy.

He values Holiness. He wants us to be holy too.
I can't build a rocket, but if i wanted to, i could get the knowledge to do so and capabilities, just give me time!

God can or "cannot" based on His desire.
If i will absolutely refuse to eat a bug then i effectively cannot eat the bug. Effectively cannot and actually cannot are two different kinds of cannot.
Can I destroy the sun by tapping my spoon on wood? No. This is an example of ACTUALLY cannot.

When the Bible says "God cannot lie" that is effectively cannot. We can know from the Bible that God is not limited. We know that God is the greatest Being. Ironically logic leads one to believe in a God Who can truly do anything, logically "impossible" or not. Not just certain things.

2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself. (ESV)

Effectively cannot.
The sense of the word "cannot"is not specified. But given that God can do anything man cant, no exceptions given, we have to interpret Scripture with Scripture and accept that logic and the Bible point us to the Omnipotent God, not a " semi " Omnipotent One.
If you do not accept then you create a Bible contradiction.

Either whatever is impossible with God is impossible with man, or some things are impossible with God, contrary to the Bible. But if your belief is true, then you cannot use the term "whatever" without being wrong. You believe it is "logically impossible" for God to lie or be wrong? Well then your belief is logically impossible and therefore God cannot be like your belief says He is. So then "whatever" should mean "whatever".
Now logic breaks down. You cannot see that your "God is bound" belief destroys itself and becomes nonsense itself when you look deeper? It is self refuting! Take out that belief that He is bound and you can probably enjoy God's Omnipotence better and potentially have a fuller relationship with Him.

Or should we ditch Luke 18:27 as a "fraud" because "This i know because my human knowledge told me so"?

Heb 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. (ESV)

Effectively impossible. If i lock a door, it is impossible for me to open it without breaking something. But my locking it, and therefore it being actually impossible to open it, is based on desire, not actual impossibility.

If God has any actual impossibilities it is only because He wants them there.

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. (ESV)


Not at all. I’m implying the biblical teaching that God cannot go against his nature. If he could, he wouldn’t be God and would be completely untrustworthy and unknowable.


No. Gos is the ground of all logic because it is a part of his nature, just as love and light are. Logic exists because God exists. God cannot do the logically impossible because the thought is logically absurd.


Perhaps it would be best to not fallaciously poison the well or commit an ad hominem, especially in a discussion on logic.


Fair enough.


Your understanding of omnipotence is incorrect. God cannot sin, lie, or be tempted by evil and you’re implying that that means he isn’t omnipotent. Do you really want to make that argument?

Omnipotence means God can only do that which is logically possible, which means he cannot go against his nature. He is infinitely more powerful than us, but in no way whatsoever does that mean that he can do absolutely anything.


No, cannot.


Yes, in a sense, because we tend to do evil with our fallen, sinful natures. Ours is the lower nature; the higher nature is to be so holy that sin is impossible. The flip side is that God can only do good, which we cannot.


You really need to more deeply study the nature of God, as your biblical understanding of him is insufficient.


Likely not. The intelligent ones would likely think a God who can do the logically impossible is nonsensical. If they laugh, I don’t care. We are to speak the truth, not keep silent in case people may laugh at it.


That is an argument atheists often make, btw. That is not based on a biblical understanding of God. Logic is a part of God’s nature. He cannot cease to be logical anymore than he can cease to be loving or light or good or omnipresent.


Yes, I know.


Imcorrect. Again, your understanding of God is deficient, as is your understanding of logic.


By breakdown I mean logic itself ceases to be logical; it becomes a meaningless idea and ceases to exist.


I implied no such thing.

I highly recommend you read Logic, by Vern S. Poythress.

 

[Free]

He can't because He won't. He could if He wanted to. God has no desire to do those things.

2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself. (ESV)

Heb 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. (ESV)

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. (ESV)

You’re changing the definitions of “cannot” and "impossible" to mean simply “preference” and "choice." That is a significant error. He can’t because of his nature. If he could go against his nature then that means he can change--it means he could do evil, and just might choose to do so one day. He would be completely untrustworthy and not worthy of our love and worship. In short, he would cease to be God.

If God simply chooses not to do something or doesn't desire to do something, that has nothing to do with logical impossibility. If something is logically impossible, it is self-contradictory.

Can i burn down my house? I could if i want to. But i desire to NOT do such.

False analogy. This has nothing to do with logical impossibility, since it is logically possible that you one day choose to burn down your house.

But if God has a "problem of logical absurdity" then yes, that is implying that He has a hard limit. Is it not logically absurd to suggest otherwise?

Ok
But nowhere in the Bible does it say God IS logic itself?

Why can we think about concepts like "logically absurd"?

Because we know what is and is not logically absurd. Logic must first exist and we must know what is logical before we can know what is logically absurd. Things that are logically absurd violate the laws of logic.

If we can think of them then why "can't" God enact them?

What does thinking of them have to do with God enacting on them? We can think of God ceasing to exist, but that doesn't mean he can. Indeed, if he can, then he isn't God.

Is it logically possible to be eternal

Is it logically possible for God, to have always existed? Yes. It has to be or he wouldn't exist.

, is it logically possible for free will existing and God to be Omniscient at the same time?

It depends on what you mean by "free will."

You seem to be confusing logical possibility with something being beyond comprehension but still logically possible. Hence your need to actually study logic.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Can man do the logically impossible? I think no, because man would then do something God could not

False premise. I can do lots of things that God cannot. Example: I can learn, lie and lust.

God's ability to do logically impossible things like make a square circle.

"A" cannot = Not "A" ... the definition of a circle is such that it can never be a square and vise versa.

If God wanted us to think there were things He actually couldn't, wouldnt He put it in the Bible?

I already gave examples of things God cannot do. They are not directly found in the Bible.

I will put it more simply:
God is Perfect. He lacks nothing that is desirable. That which God can't do is not desirable. I can do undesirable things. I can do what God does not do.

I argue that He can because He is absolutely powerful.

God cannot do the impossible by definition. For example, God cannot know what nothing can do for from nothing nothing comes.


Interesting question ... thx

 

[Fastfredy0]

is it logically possible for free will existing and God to be Omniscient at the same time?

If you define "free will" as the ability to self-determine (not influenced from the outside) salvation then it is either:
1) impossible for God to be Omniscient or
2) impossiblie for "free will" to exist

Proof:
Premise1: God knows all things (Isaiah 46:10; Job 37:16 who is perfect in knowledge)
Premise2: It is impossible to know what nothing will do for from nothing nothing comes
Premise3: At one time man was nothing
Conclusion: In order for an immutable God to know the future perfectly and before creation there be no source of information save Himself, God must determine all things which nullifies the idea of Free Will as defined as "self-determined".

 

[Free]

God could dissolve said exclusivity.

No, he can't.

Just because we, personally, cannot fully comprehend that, does not limit God.

But, we can fully comprehend what a circle is and what a square is. So, we can fully comprehend that a "square circle" is a logical impossibility, it is nonsense. It has nothing to do with God; the problem itself is self-contradictory and nonsense.

We can't fully comprehend God either.

Obviously. He is eternal, we are finite.

And besides, some athiests argue His very Existence is "logically impossible".

Which doesn't matter since there is nothing to such an argument.

Absolutely. No, it would not be absurd, it would be God showing that He can do anything He wants to.

Again, no he cannot, because a woman being both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time is inherently contradictory and is nonsense. It is a logical impossibility. A woman is either pregnant or not pregnant.

Can God make new things without needing existing things?

Again, a false analogy. This has nothing to do with the logically possible or impossible.

Doing so is impossible with man. But it is possible with God.

Make something out of nothing? Of course. That is exactly how he created everything.

"Whatever....", not "whatever with exceptions".

Technically, it is "whatever," without exceptions, because logical impossibilities are precluded from being included.

Fastfredy0 made the solid, irrefutable point that he can learn. In fact, all humans can learn, but God absolutely cannot. To say that God can learn, is to say that he is not omniscient, in which case, he cannot be God.

Do you think God can build a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?

It is illogical to belittle God.

What does this have to do with anything?

It is based on finite human knowledge. What do you think muslims reaction will be when they find out this belief?

Muslims already have incorrect beliefs about him, so that is a non-issue.

The ontological argument goes that God is the greatest concievable Being.

Of course, but the greatest conceivable being becomes nonsense if he can do the logically impossible.

So then a God who CAN do all logically impossible AND possible things is greater than one who cannot do either. Therefore God can truly do all things. Just like the Bible says.

No, that makes him less than. He becomes unknowable, unpredictable, changeable. In such a case, we would "worship" him out of fear and do good works hoping to be saved in the end, if there is even such a thing. The whole Bible would be pointless. That is precisely the god of Islam--you just don't know if he'll accept you, if you've done enough. It's also the gods of mythology--capable of gross sins, subject to their own selfish desires, etc.

When was the "God has hard limits" belief invented?

It's common sense based on logic.

"He cant because something that is not God makes it so He cant". How is that not weakening God?

What is this "something that is not God"?

But, if under the premise God IS logic, then you are confirming that God effectively cannot because He will not.

Not at all. God cannot because it would mean going against his nature and result in the breakdown of logic, at a minimum.

Also, Circular reasoning.
Premise 1: A thing is logically impossible.
Premise 2: God cannot do the logically impossible.
Conclusion: God must not be able to do it.

That isn't circular.

P1: X is logically impossible.
P2: God cannot do what is logically impossible.
C: Therefore, God cannot do X.

There is nothing wrong with that; that is a sound argument.

 

[Free]

So if your belief is correct, everything is somehow logically possible.

No, there is no way to come to that conclusion from what I've said.

The "logically impossible" is then something humans made up to gloat about how God has limits besides His desires.
But if its incorrect then its incorrect.

God is logic, that is, it is an aspect of his character, like love and light, but that discussion is too advanced for this thread. Logic exists because God exists; it isn't something he created. In fact, logic is personal, namely, the Word, the second person of the Trinity. Logic is absolutely necessary for communication between us and him, for him to express himself to us and for us to understand that self-expression.

So can God do the "logically impossible" or is the concept of "logically impossible" a manmade invention? Pick one, it's logically impossible for both to be true!

False dilemma. It's possible that both are false, and they are.

But only God has the ability to make both be true, yes?

No.

He values Holiness. He wants us to be holy too.

He doesn't value holiness, he is perfectly holy. He could only choose to sin if he is not perfectly holy. And if he is not perfectly holy, then he still has potential to grow in holiness and is capable of evil, in which case he isn't the God of the Bible.

I can't build a rocket, but if i wanted to, i could get the knowledge to do so and capabilities, just give me time!

What does this have to do with anything?

God can or "cannot" based on His desire.
If i will absolutely refuse to eat a bug then i effectively cannot eat the bug. Effectively cannot and actually cannot are two different kinds of cannot.
Can I destroy the sun by tapping my spoon on wood? No. This is an example of ACTUALLY cannot.

False analogies and conflating the definitions of cannot with preference and desire, again.

When the Bible says "God cannot lie" that is effectively cannot.

It means he absolutely cannot; it is a logical impossibility, making it an actual impossibility.

We can know from the Bible that God is not limited. We know that God is the greatest Being. Ironically logic leads one to believe in a God Who can truly do anything, logically "impossible" or not. Not just certain things.

If God can lie, then how do you even know that anything in the Bible is true? How do you even know God exists? If God can do the logically impossible, if he can go against his nature and lie, then everything in the Bible has the potential to be false. In which case, this entire discussion is moot.

Effectively cannot.
The sense of the word "cannot"is not specified.

Absolutely cannot. That is the entire point.

But given that God can do anything man cant, no exceptions given, we have to interpret Scripture with Scripture and accept that logic and the Bible point us to the Omnipotent God, not a " semi " Omnipotent One.
If you do not accept then you create a Bible contradiction.

You have been given plenty of contradictions in your position, which, as has been shown, leaves a god who is not the God of the Bible.

Either whatever is impossible with God is impossible with man, or some things are impossible with God, contrary to the Bible. But if your belief is true, then you cannot use the term "whatever" without being wrong. You believe it is "logically impossible" for God to lie or be wrong? Well then your belief is logically impossible and therefore God cannot be like your belief says He is. So then "whatever" should mean "whatever".
Now logic breaks down. You cannot see that your "God is bound" belief destroys itself and becomes nonsense itself when you look deeper? It is self refuting! Take out that belief that He is bound and you can probably enjoy God's Omnipotence better and potentially have a fuller relationship with Him.

Your position has been soundly refuted. It is irrational.

Or should we ditch Luke 18:27 as a "fraud" because "This i know because my human knowledge told me so"?

First, that is in the context of salvation. Second, God can do all manner of things humans can't, because his nature allows him to do things that our natures don't. Third, God's nature is such that he absolutely cannot act against his nature, or else his nature is false. You're really not understanding logic and its implications.

Effectively impossible. If i lock a door, it is impossible for me to open it without breaking something. But my locking it, and therefore it being actually impossible to open it, is based on desire, not actual impossibility.

Again, a false analogy and conflating impossibility with choice and preference.

If God has any actual impossibilities it is only because He wants them there.

God may choose to limit his actions for his purposes and according to his plan, but those would only be things that are logically possible. Things that are logically impossible are self-refuting, incoherent, nonsense.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Make something out of nothing? Of course. That is exactly how he created everything.

God made something, but not of nothing. The source of creation is God which something; from nothing nothing comes (ex nihilo nihil fit ... I add this so I sound intelligent ... lol)

Muslims already have incorrect beliefs about him, so that is a non-issue.

I do too; I just don't know what they are though lots of people on this website point them out to me. *giggle*