CAN God do the the logically impossible? Why / why not?
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Odd.
You presume to insist there's something God can't do. And then imagine to question how his word is relevant to this discussion when his word tells you there is nothing God cannot do.
This exchange is not edifying Christ. We're done.
There are a couple of problems. First, context is king:
Luk 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
Luk 1:36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.
Luk 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” (ESV)
The context of verse 37 is in Mary becoming pregnant as a virgin. Second, this is not a logical impossibility, which is what the discussion is about. Third, a logical impossibility precludes it from being an actual impossibility, even with God.
Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? Why or why not?
Can God learn? Why or why not?
Can God sin? Why or why not?
Can God lie? Why or why not?
How is discussing the nature of God not edifying? Is it edifying to have wrong beliefs about God or right beliefs?
CAN God do the the logically impossible? Why / why not?
Gee ... this is not rocket science. LOL
... apparently it is for some.
These are tough ...
Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? Why or why not?
I don't know which God cannot do, but since it is a contradiction one is at least one thing He cannot do.
Can God learn? Why or why not?
Well, Bible says He's all knowing (Psalm 147:5 ) so God cannot learn. That is one thing I can do the God cannot. There's a lot of things us imperfect beings can do that God cannot like being imperfect.
Aside: Open Theists disagree but they don't count
Can God sin? Why or why not?
Well, God makes the rules and who the rules apply to. I'd sin He can't sin because no such rule (law) applies to him.
Can God lie? Why or why not?
No ... one assumes the bible true and it says God can't sin
Numbers 23:19
... I wonder if seminary is this easy ... maybe I could get an honourary (spelt that way for Free) degree ? *giggle*
This is God we are talking about. THE Creator of the universe, THE Inspirer of the Bible that has been proven right time and again.
Not, say, something with Omnipotence but no other trait.
God overcomes "nonsense" easily.
Effictively cannot.
Yes because He wants to be. He always has been and wanted to be perfect and immutable and good.
Yep.
Phillipians 4:13 . This "I" CAN do ALL things, that doesnt mean he WILL. You will predictably try to assert that there are exceptions ,when there's none.
In your view, He is forced. In mine, He is the latter.
If you could choose perfection or sin which would you choose? God is perfect so He will ALWAYS, without fail, wish to not let go of perfection.
He will always want to be Righteous. No remotely decent evidence that He will not.
Proof?
How is it not that, to limit God and make Him weak???? If there are things He could not do no matter how ""hard He tries"" how is that not so?
True as well. God has no intentions on ditching His Nature. And likely has none for playing games with "logically impossible".
No no, EFFECTIVELY cannot.
Why would God ever want to violate His character or do with the "logically impossible"?
"If apple juice has the potential to have lemon juice put into it, it is not apple juice." That's how your argument is like.
Your logic is flawed. He would only "not be light" if He DID perform the action of violating.
Adam and eve were sinless until they sinned.
So why should God be not God if He can but doesnt sin??
Under your logic, adam n eve wouldve sinned upon their creation.
Arguing in circles does not help the case.
Assumption with 0 proof, we have proof the "logically impossible" is possible because of the notable LACK of exceptions to God's Power in the Bible. The big picture is, all the "God cannot" are EFFECTIVELY cannot.
He could if He wanted to.
Even without forgetting. But idk how He would do that, now thats waayyyy beyond me.
God does not play silly games just for the sake of proving His ABSOLUTE Omnipotence to fallible man. Especially those who doubt His ability to do the "logically impossible".
Really, it seems like the phrase "logically impossible" is just a synonym for "unable to be discerned/recieved/concieved/understood by humans".
Yep. But there is no good reason for God to desire to do such.
If you had the power to do the logically 'impossible', would you want to? No? Okay then i dont see the problem.
Because events throughout history have proven the Bible to be true. We know God does not lie not because of some hard limit, but as you said, He is "Good in and of Himself"
If man can lie, how can i know YOU are telling the truth? How do i know your conclusions are sound if you have potential to be wrong?
Blatant pride!!
Can God state this quote of you here as a fact?? Why or why not?
Effectively. Give me one reason that God would sin to appease people's desire to have evidence that He **can** violate His character. Right you cant.
we must have FAITH that God can absolutely do anything. but only EFFECTIVELY cannot do others.
May as well ask a computer programmer to stab his hands. He CERTAINLY CAN but effectively can't.
Oh! You mess up? So being a logical impossibility stops it from being absolutely impossible! If it is logically impossible, it cannot be absolutely impossible!
You believe that God absolutely (not simply effectively) cannot do the logically "impossible", that there are things He "absolutely cant do"!
But as is admitted, if they are logically impossible that precludes them from not being able to be done by God!!
So you contradict your previous position!
Yes, it is God we are talking about, at least who I am talking about; you’re making him less than he is. His power cannot overcome logical contradictions because there is nothing to overcome. That kind of nonsense is a state that is impossible to ever exist, and God absolutely cannot make it exist.
Absolutely cannot. He can no more go against his nature than an ant can choose to become a human and actually do so of its own power. Again, you’re making God less than he is.
“Wants to be” and “wanted” again make God less than he is. You really don't understand the nature of God.
That has nothing to do with this discussion.
No, you've got it completely backwards. In your view he must force himself to be righteous. In "my" view, which is the biblical view, God is perfectly righteous because his nature is. That means he could never not be righteous.
You’re fallaciously begging the question.
Again, you're fallaciously begging the question. If God can choose to be unrighteous, then he is completely untrustworthy and therefore cannot be God.
Do you not understand what blasphemy means either? That is what asking for proof for what I said strongly suggests. It should be self-evident.
There is nothing God 'could not do no matter how ""hard he tries"".' There are things he simply cannot do because his nature precludes them from even being a consideration. It has absolutely nothing to do with limit God or making him weak.
You have missed the point entirely. God cannot go against his nature. That is absolutely impossible. You're also fallaciously begging the question again.
He absolutely cannot go against his nature. If he could, then that wouldn't be his nature. Do you see the problem yet?
If you say it is possible and he only chooses not to, then it is always possible he might. That is the problem with your position.
This doesn't make sense.
My goodness, no. That has nothing to do with what I’ve stated and you have in no way whatsoever proven my logic to be flawed. No offense, but you really need to go and formally learn some logic and critical thinking.
Yes, because they were humans, not God.
If God can sin, then his nature isn't such that he is immutable. It means he could change if he wanted and he just might. He is therefore untrustworthy and not the God of the Bible.
Again, no, that has nothing to do with anything I've stated.
What circles?
You do not understand either the nature of logic or the nature of God.
And this proves that your understanding of the nature of God is very wrong. This is a logical contradiction which is nonsense. If God is omniscient, then it is impossible that he could ever learn anything, since by definition, he already knows everything. If God can learn "if He wanted to," then that means he is ignorant of some things, and maybe many things, and therefore he cannot be omniscient. Which means he is not the God of the Bible.
See, you're making God less than he is, which is to say that he is no longer God.
I've just proven, as have others, that your position is in serious error. God cannot do the logically impossible because the logically impossible is nonsense and absolutely impossible. It has nothing to do with God or his being omnipotent. It's a complete and utter failure to understand the nature of logic and the nature of God. You are making God much less than he is.
Not at all.
You don’t seem to understand the problem, which is based on logical reasoning. If God can create a rock too heavy for him to lift, then he cannot be omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock too heavy for him to lift, then he cannot be omnipotent. Either way, he cannot be omnipotent.
Atheists used to use that argument all the time to try to prove that God is not omnipotent, except that Christian theologians, apologists, and philosophers continued to point out that the problem is with the question—it is nonsensical. It is based on a wrong understanding of omnipotence.
But that is what your position leads to. You are in league with atheists in believing nonsense about God. Your god is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.
But, you cannot believe anything God says about himself. When Jesus returns, if he even will return, it could be to throw all the Christians in hell and all the unbelievers go to heaven. Maybe there is no heaven or hell, or maybe their is neither. God is completely untrustworthy. He could be the greatest possible deceiver. These are the types of things that your position leads to.
God cannot lie because it is impossible for him to lie. His nature precludes him from the ability to lie. If it's just a choice, then reread the paragraph above.
That is why one studies and learns theology and critical thinking. It's help one know truth from error.
I do not intend this to be mean, but I need to state things the way I see them here because of the seriousness of your error. Your understanding of logic and the nature of God are elementary, at best. Please, please go get some formal education on these matters. I mean that seriously, for your sake and the sake of the gospel. In the very least, start reading some serious books on theology and logic. I've already recommended Vern Poythress's Logic. It's a big book, but it starts with the basics. Very well worth the read.
You don't understand that the Bible makes no hard exceptions to God's Power.
you are taking similar approach to the Unitarians, who argue The Trinity is "illogical".
Unless He somehow makes both possible. But thats a game, please tell me A SINGLE REASON that God would. Right you cant.
God and His nature follow the laws of logic because, ultimately, He wants to.
You believe Omnipotent somehow allows for inability to do the logically impossible.
Immutable allows for God to "mute" Himself. If God is unable to "mute" Himself then how is He Omnipotent? Oh right, the contradiction of absoluteness and "nonsense". God is omnipotent but not omnipotent at the same time.
You already believe that God is doing something logically impossible, that He is Omnipotent but at the same time, His power doesnt extend to everything, only the logically possible.
But i dont think He is doing or being anything/anyThing logically impossible.
It is impossible to escape the belief that God is doing something logically impossible. May as well join my side, the more Biblical one.
Your position only allows God to be one logically impossible 'thing', omnipotent but somehow the word only applies to logically possible, instead of being true omnipotence.
The belief that Omnipotence has exceptions is itself a logical impossibility. Like i propsed earlier, we need a new word instead of "Omnipotent". to describe God's "unlimited-in-one-area" power.
Yes. Doesnt mean He will. He has never changed and also there is no reason for Him to.
Nope. And i'm the one who 'doesnt ' understand logic.
Ironic. How does being able to do truly anything instead of "omnipotent with exceptions" amount to that? Your position is the illogical one, not mine.
It's like saying that the largest sphere on earth is the smallest.
God can make it exist, if the assumption that it doesn't is right.
If you saw a square circle, you would probably try to deny its existence even though it is in front of your face.
Fallaciously begging the question.
That's if the premise that "omnipotence is not truly omnipotence", a self-contradictory belief, is correct.
Again, say that God's power is limited to "only logically possible" with a different word. Omni means Omni and you cant change that. Omnipotent means Omnipotent. No exceptions. You just assume there are, but Ive shown why not. multiple times.
Assumption not fact.
Your beliefs about Logic are axiomatic by nature. If not why not?
That's a confession.
An ant is not omnipotent, in the true sense or in your sense of the word.
God is not limited and He can do truly anything.
Pretty sure you are operating under the "able to do all logically possible things yet unable to do logically impossible". So yeah, obviously He is TRULY Omnipotent. Not "limited omnipotent" like you think.
He can do BOTH types of things, all logically possible AND all logically IM-possible.
Based on limited human understanding. As you have seen, just
If He wanted to. Of course God will never ditch any of His knowledge.
But again, why should He try to know
Can we know logically impossible things? Can God?
Sorry, but you are way out of your depth in this discussion. I've tried to correct you, but you won't listen to reason. Please go do some serious study into logic, critical thinking, and the nature of God.
RC Sproul addressed this in one of his books. He went on in detail about the original Greek words for "all things" in Matt 19:26. He said inherent in the definition of this word is all logically possible things. While the original text reads:
"But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matt 19:26
RC Sproul said based on the original Greek, the interpretation is: with God all things (all logically possible things) are possible.
I think this issue is resolved by studying the definition of original Greek words.
"But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matt 19:26
RC Sproul said based on the original Greek, the interpretation is: with God all things (all logically possible things) are possible.
I think this issue is resolved by studying the definition of original Greek words.
Remember God hates those who have a heart of perversion. Those who God Judges are Judged Rightly.
It's not , rather, a matter of CAN God do something, as simply What Does God Say About Something (Anything).
Agreeing with God will get you in trouble in the world. (and in true churches/assemblies, if one is found).
1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV - The natural person does… | Biblia
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because...
A man coming back to life after days in his tomb isn't logical. Lazarus would disagree.
Jesus too. ;)
When logic is thought to limit God, God knows that argument is always fated to fail.
You’re not understanding. God created everything and for him to raise someone from the dead is perfectly consistent with that. It isn’t a logical impossibility; it’s not a matter of logic at all.
Logic doesn’t limit God. God is the source of logic, it is an aspect of his nature. For God to go against logic would mean God would have to go against his nature. That is an absolute impossibility.
All these questions are raised with false premises. For the first one, since God can literally move mountains and islands (Rev. 6:14), what makes you think he can't lift a rock? The moon in its entirety is a huge rock, not only is it "lifted", it's floating in space, revolving around the earth, is that heavy enough? Actually, "he cannot lift it" implies that God is bound by gravity - which was precisely tuned by God the Creator himself, that is totally bogus.
For the next three questions, they contradict God's own identity - the one and only eternal creator of the universe who's beyond time and space, who never changes. The bible has answered these questions unequivocally.
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. (Ex. 3:14)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” (Rev. 1:11)
"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!” (Rev. 4:8)
“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (Num. 23:19)
By two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. (Heb. 6:18)
I can’t tell what your point is, although it seems you may have completely missed mine.