Bible Study Can someone become unsaved?

[Blazin Bones]

This is a question that has appeared in general talk. What do you think?

 

[Adams son]

This is a question that has appeared in general talk. What do you think?

The question is not whether a Christian can be unsaved or not (the Ephesians 2:8 salvaiton event) but whether a saved Christian will be saved when Jesus comes again or fall short of that salvation event.

 

[Blazin Bones]

What is this salvation event? Do you mean the accepting of salvation?

 

[Homeskillet]

This is how I view it...

Salvation is a gift...we haven't earned it nor can ever deserve it...It is freely given to us by the Lord...

Just like any gift we get we have many options...

We can USE the gift...
We can SHARE the gift...
We can set the gift on the shelf to collect dust...
We can give the gift back to the gift giver...


So, I don't think a person can "lose" their salvation in the sense of God taking it away from them.....but I do think a person who 'once had it' can reach a point where they no longer...by their OWN doing...

If someone 'falls away' from the Lord...it's just that...THEY have fallen away...God hasn't taken anything from them...the gift is still there if they choose to want it again...

It's our choice.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Here is the way I look at it.

I didn't save myself nor can I. But God has made a promise that we can receive eternal life.

But He also says how to receive eternal life. Because I receive the gift does not mean that I earned it.

I believe that the Biblical position (as well as the position of the early church) was that if we choose to, we can turn away from God.

This does not mean that God isn't faithful to us. It means that we were unfaithful to God.

Take Judas Iscariot for example. Here are some verses of what we can read about Judas Iscariot:

• Judas Iscariot held the highest position ever in the history of the Church and was personally appointed by Jesus Christ (Luke 6:12-16)[/*:m:c577f]
• Judas Iscariot was given, by authority of Jesus Christ Himself, the ability to preach in His name, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, and drive out demons (Matthew 10:6-8)[/*:m:c577f]
• Judas Iscariot was called a spiritual brother of Jesus, by our Lord Himself (Matthew 12:48-50)[/*:m:c577f]
• Judas Iscariot was called a 'close friend' of Jesus Christ (John 13:18 ref. Psalm 41:9)[/*:m:c577f]
• Judas Iscariot was one whom Jesus trusted (Psalm 41:9)[/*:m:c577f]
• Judas Iscariot had his name written in the Book of Life (Luke 10:20)[/*:m:c577f]

All that proof of Judas having salvation and yet he would up perishing!

• Judas Iscariot became a traitor (Luke 6:16)[/*:m:c577f]
• Judas Iscariot had Satan enter into him (Luke 22:3)[/*:m:c577f]
• Judas Iscariot became lost by Jesus and was doomed to destruction (John 17:12)[/*:m:c577f]
• Judas Iscariot would have been better of if he had never been born (Mark 14:21)[/*:m:c577f]

It wasn't God's fault that Judas became a tratior, was it?

If we are saved by faith, and faith is rejectable, then what happens to those who do reject their faith?

1 Timothy 1:18-19
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have shipwrecked their faith.

(edited to include Scripture references only - no other text was edited)

 

[Homeskillet]

Yes, I think we are on the same page as far as this goes.

 

[Adams son]

Because I receive the gift does not mean that I earned it.

Calvinists do not seem to clue into this fact.

 

[Khristeeanos]

In the other thread, the following verse was used as a proof text of OSAS:

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I say that is an awesome promise of God!

It does give proof that we can have assurance of salvation! Praise the Lord for that!

I don't by any means suggest that we should ever doubt our salvation or that it is impossible to have assurance. The Bible says we can know for sure that we are a child of God!

Please note that 1 John was written to Christians and the promise of chapter 5 and verse 13 says that the entire book was written to teach the people that they could know they have eternal life. So we should take a look at some other parts of the book and see if our lives are resembling the picture that John paints.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and will purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3, 4
We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in Him.

1 John 2:24
Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us-eternal life.

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death.

Here is a list of the things John said:

• We must confess our sins to be forgiven of them[/*:m:28f16]
• We must obey the commandments of Jesus or we are not really His followers but are liars[/*:m:28f16]
• We must abide in Christ or we do not have eternal life[/*:m:28f16]
• We must do what is right or we do not have eternal life[/*:m:28f16]
• We must not hate other Christians or we do not have eternal life[/*:m:28f16]
• We must help Christians who are in sin so they do not experience spiritual death[/*:m:28f16]

So you see that John clearly had strong words!

He also told us if we follow these teachings that we can know for sure that we have eternal life!

We also know from Philippians that it is actually God that works in us and that He will see to completion the good things He has done in us.

Praise Jesus for His Word that endures forever!

 

[Featherbop]

Yes. Gifts can be accepted or refused.

 

[Adams son]

John also speaks of a sin resulting in death in his first letter. Since the Calvinist claims that non-Christians are the non-regenerate "dead" and because they are dead they cannot believe etc etc, he only has two options here:

1. This is a Christian who becomes a total apostate, something which Calvinists want to believe is quite impossible.

2. This is a dead non-Christian who somehow becomes more dead.

Neither option will work for him and his belief system.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Honestly, I think that both extremes can take it too far.

Hyper-Calvinists tend to do the same thing Armenians do. They use certain Scriptures to "prove" their point and claim the others are heretics and condemn them to hell.

Sad state to be in when someone is able to play God like that.

I believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle. We can't save our selves, but we also aren't responsible for "keeping ourselves saved."

That would be a work of merit.

 

[Adams son]

I believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Maybe the truth is neither, they both make common mistakes, and the truth is somewhere in the Bible. Why do people keep having the notion that one only has two options: Calvinist or Arminian or to adopt a modified mush of the two. The answers to the questions at hand which created the Calvinist and Arminian folly are simple and they are in the Bible. One simply has to refrain from making the same dire mistakes as Calvinists and Arminians make.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Maybe the truth is neither, they both make common mistakes, and the truth is somewhere in the Bible. Why do people keep having the notion that one only has two options: Calvinist or Arminian or to adopt a modified mush of the two. The answers to the questions at hand which created the Calvinist and Arminian folly are simple and they are in the Bible. One simply has to refrain from making the same dire mistakes as Calvinists and Arminians make.

How can it be neither?

I am not sure I understand. There are only two sides to the coin. Either a person can or they can't forsake God after initial salvation. My point was that while I don't believe in the hyper (or dual)-Calvinism, I don't believe that the Armenians are entirely correct either. I have been to a church where the pastor says we must not have one instance of bitterness or we will miss the rapture (and I don't believe in pre-trib rapture either) if we don't repent.

I believe that this preacher is preaching a work of merit to retain salvation, something that the Bible says we just can't do.

 

[Adams son]

[quote="Adams son":8981f]Maybe the truth is neither, they both make common mistakes, and the truth is somewhere in the Bible. Why do people keep having the notion that one only has two options: Calvinist or Arminian or to adopt a modified mush of the two. The answers to the questions at hand which created the Calvinist and Arminian folly are simple and they are in the Bible. One simply has to refrain from making the same dire mistakes as Calvinists and Arminians make.

How can it be neither?
[/quote:8981f]

Easy. They can both be wrong because they both start with misconceptions. Example: Misconceived notions about Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:4.

I am not sure I understand. There are only two sides to the coin. Either a person can or they can't forsake God after initial salvation.

That would only be one small point in either the Calvinist or Arminian belief system.

My point was that while I don't believe in the hyper (or dual)-Calvinism, I don't believe that the Armenians are entirely correct either. I have been to a church where the pastor says we must not have one instance of bitterness or we will miss the rapture (and I don't believe in pre-trib rapture either) if we don't repent.

I believe that this preacher is preaching a work of merit to retain salvation, something that the Bible says we just can't do.

There is no such thing as "retaining" salvation as if it something you would lose or keep. Do you retian your 10th birthday? No, it is an event. So is salvation.

Once you have been saved in the Ephesians 2:8 salvation event it is finished and done with and over with. However, this does not mean you will be saved in the salvation event that will occur when Jesus comes again. You can indeed fall short of this event and this salvation event is based on a judgment by works.

 

[Eve777]

Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:


To the uttermost.....


He doesn't say he will perform this good work until you stumble or fall,,,,he says until the day of Jesus Christ.....

 

[Adams son]

Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:


To the uttermost.....


He doesn't say he will perform this good work until you stumble or fall,,,,he says until the day of Jesus Christ.....

Yes he is ABLE. You confuse what Jesus can do with what does happen. God can turn you into a cucumber if he likes. It does not mean this will occur. And you take from these verses that Jesus is going to make sure all born again believers will indeed be saved in the end without exception in spite of the fact that the entire book of Hebrews was written to born again believers as an exhortation not to fall away and forfeit their eternal inheritance. Why would the author of Hebrews do such a thing?

As for the "ability" in question, this is a reference to raising us from the dead. Try reading Philippians 1:6 with Paul's conclusing remarks at 3:20-21 for example. And also take careful note of what he says in between at verses 3:10-16.

 

[greyfeather]

Can someone become unsaved

These versus have often made me wonder about salvation being taken away. It seems like its saying this , at least to me.

Hebrews
( 4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5 )and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6 ) if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Re: Can someone become unsaved

These versus have often made me wonder about salvation being taken away. It seems like its saying this , at least to me.

Hebrews
( 4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5 )and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6 ) if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

Yes those verses are pretty clear. But let me also make a point about Hebrews 6:4-6.

This passage is speaking to Jews who were thinking about abandoning Jesus and going back to Judiasm. The literal meaning according to Young's Literal Translation is:

4for [it is] impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,
5and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,
6and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

It is in the present context. Such people who fall away can return to God according to Romans 11:

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Blazin Bones]

These verses leave me skeptical about salvation being taken or given away.

MT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
MT 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If we truly accept the gift, then we knew him. I guess the answer lies with the condition of the heart. It's easy to profess Christ with our mouth, but praise God he looks at our hearts.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Hey B/HC.

Love you brother.

I used to believe in OSAS for a while.

I had to ask myself what happened to the Jews? The nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with YHWH and it clearly had conditions.

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 17 & 18
See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commands, decrees, and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to posses. But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed.

2 Chronicles 15:2
...If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you forsake Him, he will forsake you.

It is the same today.

John 15:1-8
I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is also glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

John 6:66
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed [Jesus].


1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.