Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation?

[seekandlisten]

God does all the work...He provides the grace, and the faith, and prepares our heart. We merely reject or accept His free gift.

Interesting, God caters to us?

 

[chestertonrules]

Grace through faith and works.

Works, not as in works of the Law, but as in striving to follow the commandments of Jesus by loving God and neighbor and avoiding sin.

Sin can destroy our faith.

Oh I understand how the 'works' part works but I all I ever hear from the Christian perspective is to forget works and concentrate on faith because we are 'saved' by grace not works.

Aside from that I'm unsure of your point here.

cheers

I believe it is grace that enables us to do good works. However, we must accept or reject grace.

Accepting grace is an act of obedience and we must continue to follow the will of God if we are to remain in his good graces.

Faith alone is meaningless.

 

[seekandlisten]

I believe it is grace that enables us to do good works. However, we must accept or reject grace.

Accepting grace is an act of obedience and we must continue to follow the will of God if we are to remain in his good graces.

Faith alone is meaningless.

It's not a matter of 'accepting' grace. If you believe in a judgement day, that is when God's grace comes into play. It is by his grace alone that you are allowed to enter the 'kingdom'. 'Works' are what you do up until that time to deserve God's grace. Loosely quoted, he who has something will be given more and he who has nothing, what little he has will be taken away. Nobody gets something for nothing.

And yes I agree that faith in general is meaningless as it us usually used in a non productive way.

cheers

 

[francisdesales]

People like me would certainly throw the church under the bus if it did indeed circulate a written policy saying abuse should be covered up and kept from the authorities.

It would be interesting to see whether this "written policy" was a Church-wide policy, or whether one bishop implemented it, or whether this is a result of something else, like false documentations...

I and many more would like to see the Church "defend itself" in a court of law. Perhaps it might slow down the noise of the cashier ringing up another check to a supposed "abused victim" who couldn't prove a thing in a criminal case...

But like I said, that's not the way the Church has chosen to operate.

The allegation is that this policy exists and that the church's actions were based on it. If that can be proved, the church is guilty. If it can't, then it isn't. Slinging mud at other people has no bearing on this.

Someone will have to prove that this "policy" was Church-wide across the world, and not some single bishop or priest's local policy.

If the church doesn't operate by slinging mud at its detractors then why are you taking it upon yourself to do precisely that?

How am I slinging mud? Have I called you names, accused you of thinking raping children is OK??? Have I accused you of covering up crimes with little evidence? Have I questioned your personal life or your moral intentions of any actions? I am merely stating what it appears you are saying...

Does any Catholic believe "raping children" is right?

I don't know. The question is, do the most senior Catholics believe it to be wrong enough that those who do it should be punished?

That's not the problem, Bob. No one thinks raping children is "right". You are letting your emotions run wild...

Every bishop I am aware of has stated that rape is wrong. The problem YOU are addressing is their attempt (if so) to cover it up by sending a way-ward priest to another ministry, or attempting to handle the problem in-house. In-house problem solving is not exactly a new idea formed only by the Church, if you are familiar with corporations and other large organizations...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Imagine if every exegete exercized the right to arbitrarily decide that certain statements are not actually true, but rather express what could be true, but, in fact, is not.

We would get nowhere.

Cue John Lennon "Imagine if there was no country...it's easy if you try..." as our background music...


yes, I can imagine what would happen!!!

 

[glorydaz]

I don't ignore it...it's quite plain what Paul is saying. He is not saying we are saved by our good works. He is saying those who seek after eternal life by doing good works must have faith in order to be justified before God. He makes it plain in Romans 1,2,3,4,5 and 8. We are saved by grace through faith...not by works lest any man should boast. It's made clear throughout scripture.

Faith is an action word. You are doing something. Doing something is a work. Can you think of other action words that are required of us?

Faith is a word that has action as an effect. Just as believing results in good works. Abraham was justified by faith...not his works (which were merely a result of faith). Are we saved by works? Certainly not. The works, which our faith demands, could never pay for salvation. Are we saved by faith? Yes, it is the means God has chosen for delivering his free gift.

The foundational truth of scripture concerning justification is that God has provided but one way for mankind to be forgiven of the sin that separates him from God, and that way is through faith in Jesus Christ.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Just as the children of Israel were to "look upon" the serpent on the pole, we look upon Jesus. Belief is trusting in Him...which frees Him up to work through us. Salvation comes through faith and good works naturally follow as the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[francisdesales]

I suppose you don't know of any who seek after eternal life by doing good works, do you? The world is full of liberal humanists who do that very thing. Unfortunately for them, without faith in Jesus Christ, their good works will not get them saved. For all have sinned...and one single sin brings down the judgment of God. Which is why Paul makes it clear that we can only be justified by faith. You can't take a verse out of the middle of a chapter and form a doctrine around it. Well, you can...and you have, but that doesn't make it a fact.

Drew is CERTAINLY not saying that one is saved by good works apart from Jesus Christ! He discusses how the Spirit interacts in the saved Christian's works, so they are no longer ours ALONE. I am not sure why this is continuously overlooked.

Paul never says we are only justified by faith, since James tells us that faith alone DOES NOT SAVE, and certainly, Paul is not contradicting James. The issue is whether we ALONE can work to God. No, we cannot, that is Paul's statement. What saves unto eternal life? Faith working IN Christ, IN Love. Thus, the talk about humanists is misplaced.

Regards

 

[Drew]

I suppose you don't know of any who seek after eternal life by doing good works, do you?.

I am going to start another thread on this issue.

 

[francisdesales]

Faith is a word that has action as an effect.

Not always. Faith is not a conveyor belt that yields predictable and automatic results. Otherwise, why does Paul tell us one could have ALL THE FAITH TO MOVE MOUNTAINS (a freakin lot...) but yet, WITHOUT LOVE, is NOTHING??? (1 Cor 13:2) This one verse destroys your imaginative thinking here.

IF faith was a word that always has an effect, that shows our salvation, why do people of faith CONTINUE to sin? This does NOT show the desired effect, does it...

No, all is nothing, except for faith working in love, Paul tells the Galatians, after telling them one is saved by faith without works OF THE LAW...

BOTH must be present to be saved. And everyone knows that love is indeed a work... Ask someone married or someone with children, if you don't think so.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Grace through faith and works.
Works, not as in works of the Law, but as in striving to follow the commandments of Jesus by loving God and neighbor and avoiding sin.

Sin can destroy our faith.

The very reason we are saved by grace through faith is so that no man can boast he had anything to do with his own salvation. It was the exceeding riches of God's grace and His kindness toward us...not our works. Man is such a proud creature...he must ever steal the glory from God.

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[glorydaz]

Faith is a word that has action as an effect.

Not always. Faith is not a conveyor belt that yields predictable and automatic results. Otherwise, why does Paul tell us one could have ALL THE FAITH TO MOVE MOUNTAINS (a freakin lot...) but yet, WITHOUT LOVE, is NOTHING??? (1 Cor 13:2) This one verse destroys your imaginative thinking here.

IF faith was a word that always has an effect, that shows our salvation, why do people of faith CONTINUE to sin? This does NOT show the desired effect, does it...

No, all is nothing, except for faith working in love, Paul tells the Galatians, after telling them one is saved by faith without works OF THE LAW...

BOTH must be present to be saved. And everyone knows that love is indeed a work... Ask someone married or someone with children, if you don't think so.

Regards

There are hypocrites that claim to have faith...even the devil believes. We are speaking of saving faith here. When the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, the fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in our lives. That does not mean man will no longer sin, and it certainly doesn't mean we will move literal mountains.

Love is only work if it's attempted through one's own efforts. Our best efforts...all our attempts at righteousness are as filthy rags to God. Those who have ceased from their own efforts and allow God to work through them will demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit....that is the only perfect love. Not something man can ever reach in his fleshly attempts. I have a family, and I have children...loving them is not "work". Loving my enemies...that is work, and I could never do it on my own. It is only as I allow God to love them through me....His love through me...not mine own.

 

[glorydaz]

I suppose you don't know of any who seek after eternal life by doing good works, do you? The world is full of liberal humanists who do that very thing. Unfortunately for them, without faith in Jesus Christ, their good works will not get them saved. For all have sinned...and one single sin brings down the judgment of God. Which is why Paul makes it clear that we can only be justified by faith. You can't take a verse out of the middle of a chapter and form a doctrine around it. Well, you can...and you have, but that doesn't make it a fact.

Drew is CERTAINLY not saying that one is saved by good works apart from Jesus Christ! He discusses how the Spirit interacts in the saved Christian's works, so they are no longer ours ALONE. I am not sure why this is continuously overlooked.

Paul never says we are only justified by faith, since James tells us that faith alone DOES NOT SAVE, and certainly, Paul is not contradicting James. The issue is whether we ALONE can work to God. No, we cannot, that is Paul's statement. What saves unto eternal life? Faith working IN Christ, IN Love. Thus, the talk about humanists is misplaced.

Regards

I see no contradiction between Paul and James, but I do see many don't understand what James is saying. And Drew is saying good works save us. They do not save us...they are natural consequences of our being saved. It's a fine line but an essential one. It's a free gift...so no man may boast. Why? Because we are saved by grace through faith...it's the kindness and goodness of God that saves us. He even gives us the strength to obey Him. We can't even glory in that.

 

[chestertonrules]

Grace through faith and works.
Works, not as in works of the Law, but as in striving to follow the commandments of Jesus by loving God and neighbor and avoiding sin.

Sin can destroy our faith.

The very reason we are saved by grace through faith is so that no man can boast he had anything to do with his own salvation. It was the exceeding riches of God's grace and His kindness toward us...not our works. Man is such a proud creature...he must ever steal the glory from God.

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Who's boasting? We must follow the commandments of Jesus to remain in his love.

We can't be saved without him. That's a biblical reality.


Paul made this very clear:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[glorydaz]

Grace through faith and works.
Works, not as in works of the Law, but as in striving to follow the commandments of Jesus by loving God and neighbor and avoiding sin.

Sin can destroy our faith.

The very reason we are saved by grace through faith is so that no man can boast he had anything to do with his own salvation. It was the exceeding riches of God's grace and His kindness toward us...not our works. Man is such a proud creature...he must ever steal the glory from God.

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Who's boasting? We must follow the commandments of Jesus to remain in his love.

We can't be saved without him. That's a biblical reality.


Paul made this very clear:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

The man who sows to please his carnal nature is not saved. He sows to the flesh...therefore he is flesh. Those who have been born again are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. There is no condemnation for those who are Christ's because we have the Spirit of life...His righteousness has been imputed unto us. We are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We must follow His commandments to remain in His love? If that statement were true...no man would remain in His love for all sin and come short of the glory of God. Fortunately, God doesn't hold men to the high standard you claim.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather,
that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What can separate us from the love of God? Do you think the Father does not chasten his sons? Do you think He will stop loving you if you fail to obey? That's a sad state of affairs to believe you must keep yourself saved.

 

[chestertonrules]

Your comments in the boxes.



Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.[/quote]

The man who sows to please his carnal nature is not saved. He sows to the flesh...therefore he is flesh. Those who have been born again are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. There is no condemnation for those who are Christ's because we have the Spirit of life...His righteousness has been imputed unto us. We are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Paul is clear that WE REAP WHAT WE SOW. Your actions matter.

We must follow His commandments to remain in His love? If that statement were true...no man would remain in His love for all sin and come short of the glory of God.

It is true, and we can do it because with God all things are possible. When we fall, we repent and keep seeking Jesus.



John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
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John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
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1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
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2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

 

[Drew]

[And Drew is saying good works save us.

Thanks for clearly aligning me with Paul - I do appreciate that.

At several points, not least in Romans 2, Paul does indeed declare that eternal life is granted based on the good works that a believer's life manifests.

All I am doing is agreeing with Paul. You choose to disagree with Paul - that is, of course, your right.

 

[glorydaz]

[And Drew is saying good works save us.

Thanks for clearly aligning me with Paul - I do appreciate that.

At several points, not least in Romans 2, Paul does indeed declare that eternal life is granted based on the good works that a believer's life manifests.

All I am doing is agreeing with Paul. You choose to disagree with Paul - that is, of course, your right.

LOL...no, Paul never says good works save us. He does say, we are saved by grace through faith...not by works lest any man should boast. I think I hear a little boasting from you, Drew, and it is exactly why Paul makes it clear that good works do not save us.

 

[Drew]

LOL...no, Paul never says good works save us.

Here are words straight from Paul's mouth:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is a clear assertion: What will God give?

Answer: Eternal life. Not rewards over and above eternal life, but eternal life.

What is the stated basis - the criterion - for the awarding of eternal life? What you believe? What you have faith in?

Where, and please be precise, is the issue of faith or belief anywhere in view here in this text?

No. The basis of the granting of eternal life is what Paul says it is - the persistence in doing good.

Why do you reject what Paul is saying? And please do not tell us "because somewhere else he tells us we are saved by grace through faith". A 7th grader can see the problem with such an answer: It does not explain why Paul would write something he knowingly believes to be false in Romans 2?

 

[chestertonrules]

LOL...no, Paul never says good works save us.

Here are words straight from Paul's mouth:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is a clear assertion: What will God give?

Answer: Eternal life. Not rewards over and above eternal life, but eternal life.

What is the stated basis - the criterion - for the awarding of eternal life? What you believe? What you have faith in?

Where, and please be precise, is the issue of faith or belief anywhere in view here in this text?

No. The basis of the granting of eternal life is what Paul says it is - the persistence in doing good.

Why do you reject what Paul is saying? And please do not tell us "because somewhere else he tells us we are saved by grace through faith". A 7th grader can see the problem with such an answer: It does not explain why Paul would write something he knowingly believes to be false in Romans 2?

Good post. I would add that it is God's grace that enables us to persist in doing good.

His burden is light, but it is still a burden that we must carry.

 

[Drew]

...not by works lest any man should boast. I think I hear a little boasting from you, Drew, and it is exactly why Paul makes it clear that good works do not save us.

I can only hope that your repeated misrepresentations of me are not intentional. I have been crystal clear - no credit accrues to the person who does these works.

So, are you intentionally misrepresenting me? Or do you not understand how I can speak of credit for my actions being ascribed to the Holy Spirit?

You are not correctly understanding Ephesians 2:8-9. In that text, Paul does not contradict what he clearly has asserted in Romans 2 (and Romans 8 and 2 Corinthians 5) - that ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul does not deny salvation by good works, he denies salvation by the works of the Law of Moses - the Torah.

The material that follows 2:8-10 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:8-10. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works†line, it is the “works of Torah†line.

There is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyedâ€, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.

In other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)â€

But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "therefore you Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" – neither does enough good works to save.

Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of Torah in 2:8-10. Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since Torah is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.