Can We Experience Relationship With God in a Non-Open World

[Klee shay]

…but the decision is always God's to do as he wills according to his knowledge.

But we are talking about exhaustive foreknowledge though. One cannot posses exhaustive foreknowledge and at the same time be able to make a decision.

Let me walk you through the knot we run into. Do you believe God possessed this exhaustive foreknowledge from eternity and eternity to come or did He start out with foreknowledge and eventually ended up with exhaustive foreknowledge?

Former Scenario: God possessed exhaustive foreknowledge from eternity. There was no knowledge that He could gain since eternity.
This leads me to believe that I existed in Gods mind since eternity. Jesus cannot be the first thing on God’s mind because that would mean that I was second and that would negate the fact that God did not know me from eternity but after He foreknew Jesus.

Latter Scenario: If God gained knowledge since eternity how can one be sure that this is already exhaustive into the future?

What I propose is that exhaustive foreknowledge is a quality that man has made up to ascribe to God. I haven’t come across any direct statements from God in the bible that suggest that He indeed possess this exhaustive foreknowledge. Can you find one? This does not make Him any less of a God in my book, but more of a vibrant God who can be related to as a Father, who is capable of prophesying in a world of “free-will†agents and yet bring that picture to come to pass.

It seems to me that you are unknowingly an open theist at heart but find it discouraging to accept any statement that seemingly at the surface diminishes one of the "omnis" ascribed to God. But I could be wrong about this guesstimation :fadein:

I'd like to jest about being an open theist, but given my lack of understanding of the term fully; I may incriminate myself to something I don't actually ascribe to :wink: I do ascribe to God though and that's something I know in my current state I simply cannot contemplate fully either. So I remain open to an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God.

Kind of makes you wonder if it wasn't possible then why did mankind invent such words in the first place? :

I have heard of a scripture that does support exhaustive foreknowledge but I cannot think of it right now. Something along the lines that God creates as if it has already been? Sorry about the vague description. I'll have to go chase it up and come back to you later. :D

 

[unred typo]

TanNinety wrote:

When we didn’t exist God did not have a problem bringing us into existence. Future doesn’t exist, but I wouldn’t put it past God to be able to make future to bring it into existence as a reality and as this future in reality becomes present and past keep this past a reality as well.
The problem I see with this model is, if God made past and future a reality, then He is currently living with us in the new established earth as well as also flooding the earth as noah is entering the ark. Now I don’t see why God needs such a creation where He is continually present at all parts of this reality of past, present and future ..flooding, saving Israel, crucifying Christ, saving gentiles, establishing a final new heaven and new earth ALL at the same time. His final purpose is lost in such a creation, which is to establish a restored kingdom. This establishment of the final kingdom is not possible if the past enjoys a real existence because He has to continually keep working that past into entering this future kingdom. He sets Himself up into this continuous time trap.
We can get out of the above confusing muddle by understanding that God did not create time but only refers to it as relative to present. It is man who has dream weaved this past and future into real existence. So my understanding as you have correctly stated, past exists in memories and future in plans and actions but not independently by themselves.

Excellent post. I agree with the voice of reason here. While it makes for great Sci-fi fodder, the whole time warped parallel universe/ future reality thing is just that. Like the mystifying pictures where the staircase is always going up and down at the same time, it is only an impossible deceptive imaginary illusion. And we know who is the Father of deception. The great ‘I Am that I Am’ tells us he is always right there in the present moment, knowing every thought and intent of every being and every possible problem and every possible solution to everything that could happen and he has all the power to deal with it at a moment‘s notice. He doesn’t need to see into the future, since no one can thwart his plans or his irresistible will; when, however and if he chooses to employ it.

TanNinety wrote:

What I propose is that exhaustive foreknowledge is a quality that man has made up to ascribe to God. I haven’t come across any direct statements from God in the bible that suggest that He indeed possess this exhaustive foreknowledge. Can you find one? This does not make Him any less of a God in my book, but more of a vibrant God who can be related to as a Father, who is capable of prophesying in a world of “free-will†agents and yet bring that picture to come to pass.

Amen. I can’t imagine a god so impotent that he’s still playing with dolls and puppets at his age. I’m late getting into this discussion and haven't had time to read it all but it seems like you have a good handle on what would be my view in any case. Did you always hold this opinion or have you run through several models before coming to this conclusion? For myself, it was somewhat hard and a little frightening to give up a god that had every detail of the future under his belt and safely tucked away until I had faith to understand that the Real God is powerful and wise enough to handle even the unknowable future and still bring his predictions to pass. Also, I noticed that he gave himself plenty of wiggle room to allow for changes in the actual execution of his foretold plans. When he said he never changes, I believe he was referring to his character, his never aging and his plans for good.

 

[Drew]

For myself, it was somewhat hard and a little frightening to give up a god that had every detail of the future under his belt and safely tucked away until I had faith to understand that the Real God is powerful and wise enough to handle even the unknowable future and still bring his predictions to pass.

I agree. I suspect that the God "who pre-determines every event in the future evolution of the Universe" is an artifact of our limited imaginations and our insecurities - projecting onto God our inclination to want to exert control over everything we can.

I also agree with Tan's assertions about the non-existence of the past and the future. As far as the future is concerned, I think a much cleaner conceptualization is that of a God who plans and acts to fulfill his plans, not a God who fully specifies a future and then lets it "play out".

 

[Vic C.]

For myself, it was somewhat hard and a little frightening to give up a god that had every detail of the future under his belt and safely tucked away until I had faith to understand that the Real God is powerful and wise enough to handle even the unknowable future and still bring his predictions to pass.

I agree. I suspect that the God "who pre-determines every event in the future evolution of the Universe" is an artifact of our limited imaginations and our insecurities - projecting onto God our inclination to want to exert control over everything we can.

I also agree with Tan's assertions about the non-existence of the past and the future. As far as the future is concerned, I think a much cleaner conceptualization is that of a God who plans and acts to fulfill his plans, not a God who fully specifies a future and then lets it "play out".

We are not really talking about predetermination, we're dealing with predestiny. By that I am talking abot God knowing the destiny of Mankind WELL in advance... from the beginning, no, before the beginning.

If God doesn't know the future or even the near future, how is it HE was able to give prophecy to the prophets? Please don't tell me the prophets know but God doesn't. :-?

 

[undertow]

If God doesn't know the future or even the near future, how is it HE was able to give prophecy to the prophets? Please don't tell me the prophets know but God doesn't. :-?

Prophecy isn't necessarily a problem. If God intends to do something, and has the ability to make sure it comes to pass, then accurate prophecy could be provided to man. God wouldn't need to know the future. I am only suggesting here that it isn't necessarily a problem, whether it would be a problem to Christianity I don't know.

 

[Drew]

We are not really talking about predetermination, we're dealing with predestiny. By that I am talking abot God knowing the destiny of Mankind WELL in advance... from the beginning, no, before the beginning.

You have a point here and I should retract my strong implication that God is only a "planner" and "executor of plans". See, people on this board do sometimes see the error of their ways! Obviously God knows some future events that are not simply "His own plans". I still think that it is not wise to conceive of there being "a" future - I think the Biblical case for open theism is still very strong. So I think that the future is known to God in the precise sense that He knows about a set of possible futures, all containing a certain set of the same events - such events occur in each of these possible futures.

Please don't tell me the prophets know but God doesn't. :-?

Now Vic, do you honestly think I would hold to such a position? :D

 

[Drew]

If God doesn't know the future or even the near future, how is it HE was able to give prophecy to the prophets? Please don't tell me the prophets know but God doesn't. :-?

Prophecy isn't necessarily a problem. If God intends to do something, and has the ability to make sure it comes to pass, then accurate prophecy could be provided to man. God wouldn't need to know the future. I am only suggesting here that it isn't necessarily a problem, whether it would be a problem to Christianity I don't know.

Hello undertow:

I was going to make the same argument, but I believe that in the case of the Chritian Scriptures, there are indeed events that are "foretold" that are not under the direct control of God (e.g. things that men will do - and for those of us who believe in (gasp1) free will, the explanation that God plans to do x does not address these things that are beyond his control).

 

[unred typo]

Vic wrote:

We are not really talking about predetermination, we're dealing with predestiny. By that I am talking abot God knowing the destiny of Mankind WELL in advance... from the beginning, no, before the beginning.

If God doesn't know the future or even the near future, how is it HE was able to give prophecy to the prophets? Please don't tell me the prophets know but God doesn't.

Because he is an omnipotent God, he can make anything happen that he wills to happen. As a mere human, I can’t even promise my grandchild that I will take him for an icecream tomorrow with certainty. In fact, we are warned in scripture not to make our boast of tomorrow. God, on the other hand, can cause anything he wishes to occur. If he says that you will paint your feet purple with yellow pokadots on July 21, 2007, guess what you will be doing on July 21, 2007, unless God in his mercy gives you a way out. Heh heh. Besides that, I think that in many instances, the prophet made the statement and then God made it happen. Before you scoff at this, read : 1Sa 3:19 And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground†and1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, [who was] of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, [As] the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word. which was also spoken of by James: Jam 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. Is there anything too hard for him or not, what say ye?

 

[unred typo]

Drew wrote:

I was going to make the same argument, but I believe that in the case of the Chritian Scriptures, there are indeed events that are "foretold" that are not under the direct control of God (e.g. things that men will do - and for those of us who believe in (gasp1) free will, the explanation that God plans to do x does not address these things that are beyond his control).

wow, I’m here trying to unmake hay while the sun shines and you all are leaving me in the dust. I guess I’ll just check back now and then and wait for gasp 2. :wink: This is way more fun than mowing... whine...

 

[unred typo]

Drew wrote:

I agree. I suspect that the God "who pre-determines every event in the future evolution of the Universe" is an artifact of our limited imaginations and our insecurities - projecting onto God our inclination to want to exert control over everything we can.

I also agree with Tan's assertions about the non-existence of the past and the future. As far as the future is concerned, I think a much cleaner conceptualization is that of a God who plans and acts to fulfill his plans, not a God who fully specifies a future and then lets it "play out".

Sorry to neglect your post, Drew. I just snuck in here to cool off and pray for rain…heh heh. I have noticed that we agree on many things and this is another example. That does sound just like us humans to try to project onto God our inclination to want to exert control over everything we can. I hadn’t really thought of that aspect.

I have an idea about the whole Hez thing I would like to run by you. As far as I know, he did die, didn’t he? Did God specify a date when that would happen? Being an old hand at putting off till tomorrow things I’d rather not deal with today, I could see that without a dead-line (no pun intended but enjoyed) for this prophesy, there is no reason to call God a liar if he moves the date ahead 15 years, is there? Check it out: In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. God does put his sickness into remission but it is a temporary postponement, not permanent. I don’t think I would split hairs with God on this one, would you? Certainly it’s a little shakey to build a doctrine around. :fadein:

 

[TanNinety]

I have an idea about the whole Hez thing I would like to run by you. As far as I know, he did die, didn’t he? Did God specify a date when that would happen? Being an old hand at putting off till tomorrow things I’d rather not deal with today, I could see that without a dead-line (no pun intended but enjoyed) for this prophesy, there is no reason to call God a liar if he moves the date ahead 15 years, is there? Check it out: In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

The context is that Hez was suffering from an illness as the verse clearly says unto death. Now keeping his death because of his illness in context NLT renders the best translation of this verse

About that time Hezekiah became deathly ill, and the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to visit him. He gave the king this message: "This is what the Lord says: Set your affairs in order, for you are going to die. You will not recover from this illness."

The prophesy was not just that Hez was going to die but that Hez was not going to recover. But indeed you see God heals Hez and Hez recovers.

I dont think God prophesies for fun or misrepresents His prophesy just so humans think one thing about it but He is just taking evasive action! I think that would be a bad thing to build doctrines on.

Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah's servants, "Make an ointment from figs and spread it over the boil." They did this, and Hezekiah recovered!

Closed theism would definitely make God a liar in this case.

I think it's time for you to get out of the sun a wee bit ..hehe :wink: :fadein:

 

[unred typo]

TanNinety wrote:

The context is that Hez was suffering from an illness as the verse clearly says unto death. Now keeping his death because of his illness in context NLT renders the best translation of this verse
Quote:
About that time Hezekiah became deathly ill, and the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to visit him. He gave the king this message: "This is what the Lord says: Set your affairs in order, for you are going to die. You will not recover from this illness."


The prophesy was not just that Hez was going to die but that Hez was not going to recover. But indeed you see God heals Hez and Hez recovers.

I dont think God prophesies for fun or misrepresents His prophesy just so humans think one thing about it but He is just taking evasive action! I think that would be a bad thing to build doctrines on.

I’m not any authority on open theism, but I’m pretty sure that this example isn’t that useful to dispute a closed system. I would argue instead that the fact is that God changed his mind, which does show it wasn’t written in eternity past somewhere. The recovery was just a temporary remission and eventually this same illness returns to do the job it had started 15 yrs ago. He did recover but only to be shot down at a later date. Just like this interpretation shoots down absolute foreknowledge without doing any harm to God’s spotless reputation. I still like it. :wink:

 

[unred typo]

JM wrote:

God heals him and adds 15 years to his life. How does God know that, say, in 5 years, some assasin or deranged person stabs the king and kills him?
Or maybe the king falls off a cliff? or whatever?
The point is that how is it that a God, who [according to Open Theists] cannot see the future, can guarantee 15 years to a man's life.

Those things are child’s play for God. How will an assassin or deranged person get by God’s angels? If the king falls off a cliff, he will give his angels charge over him, lest he dash his kingly noggin upon a stone. There is no whatever that you can dream up to thwart an all powerful, all knowing God. Sorry but it can’t be done because he ultimately has control. All we have is free will to do what we can do in our limited, frail existence. Even then, it is only that we can wish, hope and plan to do this or that and all our doings are subject to circumstances beyond our control. God has no such problem.

JM wrote:

Does God set the times of birth and death? And if so, how can he do so if He doesnt at least know the circumstances that will lead to a person's death?

How can God make such statements if He has no knowledge or control over the circumstances. What is the means of God's foreknowledge anyway? While God knows all that will happen He has also predetermined those things. God's providence is written all over this from chapter 18 - 20.

You have a very paltry view when it comes to the greatness of God. If God had set a day for Hezekiah’s death, and he can add double digit numbers, he obviously knew the date of his death, unless he was giving a general count of about 15 yrs, mol, depending on the king's attitude. Does everyone now *have* to have their red-line day written in stone somewhere? :roll: When God decides you are going to die, you will die unless he changes his mind before he pulls the plug. That still doesn’t mean he had to have that day written in permanent marker on his big black and white calendar and it doesn‘t mean he can‘t write down your death day and keep it. He is sovereign, you know. In fact, he is so sovereign that he can ordain that you have free will and not even Satan can take that away unless you choose to let him lead you around by the neck. See Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?