Catholic-Protestant confirmation bias that refuses to accept scripture that repentance in Hell is possible must be rejected as unsound

[Alfred Persson]

Catholic-Protestant confirmation bias that refuses to accept scripture that repentance in Hell is possible must be rejected as unsound.

Below are Various Scriptures where repentance in this life and Hell are implied parallels (cp. Jn. 5:24-25 w. Jn. 5:28-29) borrowing imagery from each other. Also, scriptures that explicitly state or imply repentance in hell possible:

1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7, 16-18; Job 33:27-28; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3-6; 49:15-16; 56:13; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 107:8-15; 116:3-9; 139:8; Isa. 4:4-6; 26:19-21; 38:16-20; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; Rom. 8:28-39; 11:25-36; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 1:18; 20:11-15


For more:

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[jasonc]

Universalism

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

I found this one day searching about purgatory, but never listed where I found it so this is not my work but have the Jerusalem Bible that has the books of Maccabees in and read the scriptures there.

2 Maccabees is where Catholics get their idea of a purgatory and that everyone will go to be with Christ when He returns. There is no purgatory as this is just something that man dreamed up and is not of God. In Psalms 88 we see Heman was asking God these three questions in vs. 10-12 as he was sore plexed in approching his own death and was not sure that he would escape the wrath of God in judgement and was wondering if those who died who are in the grave could hear Gods voice. Psalms 6:5; Hebrews 9:27; Matthew 8:21,22; 2 Corinthians 5:8-11; Revelation 14:13 are just for a few scriptures all state the grave is a place of unconscienceness where there is no memory and souls are not capable of anything as it is dark silence waiting that of Gods judgement at the end of time when Christ returns and separates the sheep from the goats. They have no knowledge, no comfort, no praise of God, and most assuredly, no power of intercession.

2 Maccabees 12:38-45 Judas Maccabaeus is speaking about the sacrifice for the fallen who were found to have pagan idols on them when they died and this was the reason for their death as it is against God to have such idols in ones posession. It was clear to everyone why these men lost their lives. All of them blest the Lord and gave themselves to prayer begging that the sin commited by those who died would be blotted out. Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from sin, seeing with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen. Judas then took a collection of money and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered. Although a fine and nobel action in which he took full account of the resurrection. For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. Whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who made a pious end, the though was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead so that they might be released from their sin.

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

This is where the Roman Catholic Church came up with the concept of purgatory. Hopefully this will clear some things up we have been discussing. Also here is a good website that explains why the two books of Maccabees are not found in the KJV Bible

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

Jerusalem Bible
2 Maccabees 12:38-45
The sacrifice for the fallen

12:38 Judas then rallied his army and moved on to the town of Adullam, and since the seventh day of the week had arrived they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath in that place.
12:39 The next day they came to Judas (since the necessity was by now urgent) to have the bodies of the fallen taken up and laid to rest among their relatives in their ancestral tombs.
12:40 But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, amulets of the idols taken from Jamnia, which the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives.
12:41 All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings hidden things to light,
12:42 and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be fully blotted out. Next, the valiant Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen;
12:43 after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmae, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an altogether fine and noble action, in which he took full account of the resurrection.
12:44 For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,
12:45 whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.

 

[Mungo]

2 Maccabees is where Catholics get their idea of a purgatory and that everyone will go to be with Christ when He returns. There is no purgatory as this is just something that man dreamed up and is not of God.

Purgatory is not just dreamed up from the book of Maccabees.
It is fully scripture based (even on your reduced set of scriptures).
Jews, some Orthodox and some Protestants believe in purgation after death,though they use different terms.
However this is not the place to argue this.
But see this thread - Purgatory

 

[for_his_glory]

Purgatory is not just dreamed up from the book of Maccabees.
It is fully scripture based (even on your reduced set of scriptures).
Jews, some Orthodox and some Protestants believe in purgation after death,though they use different terms.
However this is not the place to argue this.
But see this thread - Purgatory

Please show us in the Bible where purgatory is taught as it comes against what Jesus has already said in John 5:28-29.
Just because a majority believes in purgatory does not make it a truth, but what man's doctrines teach.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Mungo]

Please show us in the Bible where purgatory is taught as it comes against what Jesus has already said in John 5:28-29.
Just because a majority believes in purgatory does not make it a truth, but what man's doctrines teach.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Do you really want to derail Alfred Persson's thread and start a discussion on Purgatory?

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you really want to derail Alfred Persson's thread and start a discussion on Purgatory?

He's the one who brought it up in his OP about being able to be saved after we have died.

 

[Mungo]

He's the one who brought it up in his OP about being able to be saved after we have died.

Purgatory is not about being saved after we have died.

 

[for_his_glory]

Purgatory is not about being saved after we have died.

Then why does the Catholic church have to pay money in a collection box in order to pray for the dead. The dead are dead and can not change their minds to receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior once their lives have left their bodies. Show me the scriptures where we are to pray for the dead.

 

[Mungo]

Then why does the Catholic church have to pay money in a collection box in order to pray for the dead.

It doesn't

The dead are dead and can not change their minds to receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior once their lives have left their bodies. Show me the scriptures where we are to pray for the dead.

I'm really surprised that a staff member would deliberately take a thread off track.
I've told you that Purgatory is not about being saved after we have died. Are you calling me a liar?
I've given you a link to a Purgatory thread in the Catholicism forum if you want to know more.
Here is a link to a thread about Praying to the Saints in Heaven if you really want to pursue that.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Universalism

Nope, you misread it.

 

[jasonc]

Nope, you misread it.

That's universalism .
Sorry if you were judged and sent to sheol to be tortured .no one would stay there.

Jesus said it's too late.im familiar with purgatory In jewry .

 

[for_his_glory]

It doesn't


I'm really surprised that a staff member would deliberately take a thread off track.
I've told you that Purgatory is not about being saved after we have died. Are you calling me a liar?
I've given you a link to a Purgatory thread in the Catholicism forum if you want to know more.
Here is a link to a thread about Praying to the Saints in Heaven if you really want to pursue that.

Like I told you I did not bring the subject up, but is part of the OP as "Catholic-Protestant confirmation bias that refuses to accept scripture that repentance in Hell is possible must be rejected as unsound.

It sounds like a purgatory subject to me since he mentions Catholic and Protestant bias. I never go into the Catholic forum unless a report is made, but that doesn't mean I have never researched what purgatory is all about and I will not argue this with you.

If this is not what Alfred Persson was talking about he can let me know as he is the one who started this thread.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Purgatory is not about being saved after we have died.

Precisely, purgatory is a corruption of what was believed by Christ and His apostles, and some of the Jews of the first century:

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”
[G] Said R. Abin, “What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: ‘Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.’ ‘Let them be blotted out of the book’—this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. ‘[… of the] living’—this refers to the book of the righteous. ‘Let them not be inscribed among the righteous’—this refers to the book of middling [people].”
[H] Rab Nahman bar Isaac said, “From here [Ex. 32:32, referring to Moses’s entreating of God to forgive the people’s sin: ‘So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “… But now, if you will, forgive their sin]. But if not, blot me, I pray, from your book which you have written.” ’ ‘Blot me, I pray’—this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. ‘From your book’—this refers to the book of the righteous. ‘Which you have written’—this refers to the book of middling [people].”
[I.16 A] It has been taught on Tannaite authority:
The House of Shammai say, “[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people].
[C] “The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life.
[D] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna,
[E] “as it is written [Dan. 12:2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.’
[F] “Middling [people] go down to Gehenna [17a], scream [in prayer], and rise [again],
[G] “as it is written [Zech. 13:9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.’
[H] “And, concerning this group, Hannah said [1 Sam. 2:6]: ‘The Lord kills and brings to life. He brings down to Sheol and raises up.’ ”
[The Hillelites reject the notion that the middling group initially is sent to Gehenna.] The House of Hillel say, “But [contrary to what the Shammaites hold, God] who abounds in mercy leans towards [a judgment of] mercy.
[J] “And concerning them [that is, the middling group] David said [Ps. 116:1]: ‘I love the Lord, because he has heard my voice [and my supplications].’
[K] “And [further] concerning them David stated the whole passage [which begins, Ps. 116:6]: ‘The Lord preserves the simple; when I was brought low, he saved me.’ ”
[I.17 A] Israelite wrongdoers [who sin] with their body and gentile wrongdoers [who sin] with their body go down to Gehenna and are judged [i.e., punished] there for twelve months.
After twelve months their body is consumed [in fire], their soul is burned, and a wind scatters them under the feet of the righteous.
[C] [This is] as it says [Mal. 4:3]: “And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet [on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts].”
[D] But the sectarians, the informers, and heretics, who denied the Torah, who denied the resurrection of the dead, who separated themselves from the ways of the community, who tyrannized the land of the living, and who sinned and caused many others to sin—such as Jeroboam son of Nebat and his associates—[these individuals] go down to Gehenna and are judged there for generations.
[E] [This is] as it says [Is. 66:24]: “And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me. [For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh].”



Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, pp. 83–89). Hendrickson Publishers.

 

[jasonc]

Since when is oral( midrash ) or Talmud scripture?

I understand that it can be useful for things that was taught when Jesus was on the earth but it's not canon

 

[Alfred Persson]

Since when is oral( midrash ) or Talmud scripture?

I understand that it can be useful for things that was taught when Jesus was on the earth but it's not canon

Never said or implied otherwise.

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[PeterJens]

Catholic-Protestant confirmation bias that refuses to accept scripture that repentance in Hell is possible must be rejected as unsound.

Below are Various Scriptures where repentance in this life and Hell are implied parallels (cp. Jn. 5:24-25 w. Jn. 5:28-29) borrowing imagery from each other. Also, scriptures that explicitly state or imply repentance in hell possible:

1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7, 16-18; Job 33:27-28; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3-6; 49:15-16; 56:13; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 107:8-15; 116:3-9; 139:8; Isa. 4:4-6; 26:19-21; 38:16-20; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; Rom. 8:28-39; 11:25-36; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 1:18; 20:11-15


For more:

Home | End Time News

Unlock the Scriptures Discover insights on the prophesied events and prepare for the future with End Time News. Explore Now Site Under Construction Ignore Starter Template Testimonies etc. Read Blog posts only. Guidance Receive expert analysis and interpretations on prophetic scriptures for...

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Let me suggest another view.
Those in the kingdom are whole, together, functioning, able to love and relate.
Those outside the kingdom are chaff, blown here and there and not properly whole, a building ready to collapse or one totally destroyed.

The problem with death and meeting the Lord, is this is a totally destructive experience for those who are not whole. Everything just flies apart, because there are no reactions where they come out ok or on top of the situation. Everything they are and find security in is gone, there is only despair and failure. I suspect the problem with being in the light of eternity, is it freezes everything, and there is no chance or change or repair. While things are hidden and the ability to be made whole is present, we can repent and be made whole. But this is only because things are hidden and obscure, and the choices are half possible, and the consequences not worked through.

C S Lewis in the great divorce put it in terms of being a ghost visiting the kingdom, and the longer you stayed the more real you became. It is not a one off event, it is a path and a destination, and we live in a kind of cross roads here and now, and we have a chance to join and lose the whole thing without the ability to go back.

The parable of Lazarus about the rich man going to warn his friends, the Lord clearly says if his friends did not listen to the prophets they will not listen to someone who rises from the dead. This choice is a heart choice, and is either one way or the other.

God bless you

 

[Hopeful]

Catholic-Protestant confirmation bias that refuses to accept scripture that repentance in Hell is possible must be rejected as unsound.

Below are Various Scriptures where repentance in this life and Hell are implied parallels (cp. Jn. 5:24-25 w. Jn. 5:28-29) borrowing imagery from each other. Also, scriptures that explicitly state or imply repentance in hell possible:

1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7, 16-18; Job 33:27-28; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3-6; 49:15-16; 56:13; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 107:8-15; 116:3-9; 139:8; Isa. 4:4-6; 26:19-21; 38:16-20; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; Rom. 8:28-39; 11:25-36; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 1:18; 20:11-15


For more:

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Just another false doctrine accommodating sin.
If we don't have to live lives that glorify God now, why do so?

 

[Hopeful]

I found this one day searching about purgatory, but never listed where I found it so this is not my work but have the Jerusalem Bible that has the books of Maccabees in and read the scriptures there.

2 Maccabees is where Catholics get their idea of a purgatory and that everyone will go to be with Christ when He returns. There is no purgatory as this is just something that man dreamed up and is not of God. In Psalms 88 we see Heman was asking God these three questions in vs. 10-12 as he was sore plexed in approching his own death and was not sure that he would escape the wrath of God in judgement and was wondering if those who died who are in the grave could hear Gods voice. Psalms 6:5; Hebrews 9:27; Matthew 8:21,22; 2 Corinthians 5:8-11; Revelation 14:13 are just for a few scriptures all state the grave is a place of unconscienceness where there is no memory and souls are not capable of anything as it is dark silence waiting that of Gods judgement at the end of time when Christ returns and separates the sheep from the goats. They have no knowledge, no comfort, no praise of God, and most assuredly, no power of intercession.

2 Maccabees 12:38-45 Judas Maccabaeus is speaking about the sacrifice for the fallen who were found to have pagan idols on them when they died and this was the reason for their death as it is against God to have such idols in ones posession. It was clear to everyone why these men lost their lives. All of them blest the Lord and gave themselves to prayer begging that the sin commited by those who died would be blotted out. Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from sin, seeing with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen. Judas then took a collection of money and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered. Although a fine and nobel action in which he took full account of the resurrection. For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. Whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who made a pious end, the though was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead so that they might be released from their sin.

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

This is where the Roman Catholic Church came up with the concept of purgatory. Hopefully this will clear some things up we have been discussing. Also here is a good website that explains why the two books of Maccabees are not found in the KJV Bible

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

Jerusalem Bible
2 Maccabees 12:38-45
The sacrifice for the fallen

12:38 Judas then rallied his army and moved on to the town of Adullam, and since the seventh day of the week had arrived they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath in that place.
12:39 The next day they came to Judas (since the necessity was by now urgent) to have the bodies of the fallen taken up and laid to rest among their relatives in their ancestral tombs.
12:40 But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, amulets of the idols taken from Jamnia, which the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives.
12:41 All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings hidden things to light,
12:42 and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be fully blotted out. Next, the valiant Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen;
12:43 after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmae, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an altogether fine and noble action, in which he took full account of the resurrection.
12:44 For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,
12:45 whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.

Holy and devout idolaters.
Oxymoron anybody?