Catholics and Mary = Protestants and the Bible?

[Solo]

Thanks.

However, could you do so without the polemic commentary?

I did not see the statement of facts as polemic, nor do I agree that Mary should be venerated over the work of Jesus Christ as the Roman Catholics do. Sometimes the truth just plain out hurts, Joe!

 

[francisdesales]

I did not see the statement of facts as polemic, nor do I agree that Mary should be venerated over the work of Jesus Christ as the Roman Catholics do. Sometimes the truth just plain out hurts, Joe!

Mike,

We don't venerate Mary above Jesus. We worship Jesus at the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. As you may remember from the Bible, the idea of graven images is the worship as God something that is not God. Having statues is not against the commandment, unless you think that Solomon's Temple, made at the command of God, was ALSO making graven images.

I believe the "graven images" idea is taken out of context here. We don't worship statues or Mary. Only God. If you find a quote from the Catechism that says otherwise, let me know...

Regards

 

[Solo]

Mike,

We don't venerate Mary above Jesus. We worship Jesus at the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. As you may remember from the Bible, the idea of graven images is the worship as God something that is not God. Having statues is not against the commandment, unless you think that Solomon's Temple, made at the command of God, was ALSO making graven images.

I believe the "graven images" idea is taken out of context here. We don't worship statues or Mary. Only God. If you find a quote from the Catechism that says otherwise, let me know...

Regards

Joe,
It would be a very difficult task for a believer to read the Scriptures given below, and not come to the conclusion that Roman Catholics are going against the Word of God in their oblations to Mary and others:

• "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" Exodus 20:4
  
  "Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth." Deuteronomy 16:22
  
  "Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves... Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..." Deuteronomy 4:15-16
  
  "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee." Deuteronomy 4:23
  
  "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..." Exodus 20:5
  
  "What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?... the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils (demons), and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." 1 Corinthians 10:19-20
  
  "Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:4
  
  "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater... with such an one no not to eat." 1 Corinthians 5:11
  
  "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." Ephesians 5:5-6

Roman Catholicism does not even pretend that their doctrine came from God:

• "Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets." Pg. 300, #1161

This doctrine came from the "holy Fathers" and "tradition of the Catholic Church." You are expected to believe that these holy Fathers were "divinely inspired" to violate God's Word. Can you accept this?

The psalmist teaches us even more on the subject:

• "The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not; They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths. They that make them are like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them." Psalm 135:15-18
  
  "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 26:1

Jesus spoke to the pharisees of their traditions vs the commandment of God:

• "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men..." Mark 7:8

Know dear friend, that I only look for the truth of God to prevail over all of the traditions that men set up as their guiding light. We know that all men are liars, but God is truth. May the Holy Spirit teach and guide us into all truth and may the angels of God build up their hedge of protection around us so that the evil that exists in this world can not and will not keep us from the truth. I pray to the Father in Heaven that all that is done and said be in regards to seeking HIS truth, and that HE may enable us both to live according to HIS will and not ours or anyone else's. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[jgredline]

Great post Michael.....

 

[Heidi]

Mike,

We don't venerate Mary above Jesus. We worship Jesus at the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. As you may remember from the Bible, the idea of graven images is the worship as God something that is not God. Having statues is not against the commandment, unless you think that Solomon's Temple, made at the command of God, was ALSO making graven images.

I believe the "graven images" idea is taken out of context here. We don't worship statues or Mary. Only God. If you find a quote from the Catechism that says otherwise, let me know...

Regards

Sorry but since only God is sinless, then calling Mary sinless is equating her with God which is unbliclical because Mary is not sinless or God. And no amount of denials will alter that. I find it interesting how no Catholic has addressed my last 2 threads. The 5th amendment, perhaps? ;-)

 

[francisdesales]

Sorry but since only God is sinless, then calling Mary sinless is equating her with God which is unbliclical because Mary is not sinless or God. And no amount of denials will alter that. I find it interesting how no Catholic has addressed my last 2 threads. The 5th amendment, perhaps? ;-)

You want to know why Catholics aren't addressing your last two threads? I'd tell you, but you wouldn't want to hear it.

 

[francisdesales]

Joe,
It would be a very difficult task for a believer to read the Scriptures given below, and not come to the conclusion that Roman Catholics are going against the Word of God in their oblations to Mary and others.

Those of us who have read the Scriptures will also remember some other verses that tend to discount your interpretation.

And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king. 1 Chron 29:20.

It is a sign of veneration, not worship, to bow one's head to the king. People continue to offer this respect today. Does this mean they think that the Queen of England is God???

As to building 'graven images', please explain God's directions on building the Ark of the Covenant, in particular, the mercy seat, and the Temple of Solomon, which ALSO had statues of angels - spiritual beings. Were THESE images "graven images"? Did the Jews worshiped them? Nor do Catholics worship statues of Mary or the saints.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" Exodus 20:4

"Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth." Deuteronomy 16:22

"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves... Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..." Deuteronomy 4:15-16

"Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee." Deuteronomy 4:23

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..." Exodus 20:5

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?... the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils (demons), and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." 1 Corinthians 10:19-20

"Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:4

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater... with such an one no not to eat." 1 Corinthians 5:11

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." Ephesians 5:5-6

I'm not defending Catholicism or statues of Mary, but doesn't this effectively rule out making statues of Jesus also, because of the way you are applying it?

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

I'm not defending Catholicism or statues of Mary, but doesn't this effectively rule out making statues of Jesus also, because of the way you are applying it?

~Josh

There should not be any statues of Jesus either...
In my church and in all the protestant churches I have visited, I have yet to see a statue of Jesus.....I have seen many in catholic churches though....

 

[Solo]

Joe,
It would be a very difficult task for a believer to read the Scriptures given below, and not come to the conclusion that Roman Catholics are going against the Word of God in their oblations to Mary and others:

• "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" Exodus 20:4
  
  "Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth." Deuteronomy 16:22
  
  "Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves... Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..." Deuteronomy 4:15-16
  
  "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee." Deuteronomy 4:23
  
  "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..." Exodus 20:5
  
  "What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?... the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils (demons), and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." 1 Corinthians 10:19-20
  
  "Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:4
  
  "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater... with such an one no not to eat." 1 Corinthians 5:11
  
  "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." Ephesians 5:5-6

Roman Catholicism does not even pretend that their doctrine came from God:

• "Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets." Pg. 300, #1161

This doctrine came from the "holy Fathers" and "tradition of the Catholic Church." You are expected to believe that these holy Fathers were "divinely inspired" to violate God's Word. Can you accept this?

The psalmist teaches us even more on the subject:

• "The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not; They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths. They that make them are like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them." Psalm 135:15-18
  
  "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 26:1

Jesus spoke to the pharisees of their traditions vs the commandment of God:

• "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men..." Mark 7:8

Know dear friend, that I only look for the truth of God to prevail over all of the traditions that men set up as their guiding light. We know that all men are liars, but God is truth. May the Holy Spirit teach and guide us into all truth and may the angels of God build up their hedge of protection around us so that the evil that exists in this world can not and will not keep us from the truth. I pray to the Father in Heaven that all that is done and said be in regards to seeking HIS truth, and that HE may enable us both to live according to HIS will and not ours or anyone else's. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Those of us who have read the Scriptures will also remember some other verses that tend to discount your interpretation.

And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king. 1 Chron 29:20.

It is a sign of veneration, not worship, to bow one's head to the king. People continue to offer this respect today. Does this mean they think that the Queen of England is God???

As to building 'graven images', please explain God's directions on building the Ark of the Covenant, in particular, the mercy seat, and the Temple of Solomon, which ALSO had statues of angels - spiritual beings. Were THESE images "graven images"? Did the Jews worshiped them? Nor do Catholics worship statues of Mary or the saints.

Regards

First of all, it is apparant that you pick and choose your Scriptures to back the false teachings of Roman Catholicism. No where in the Scripture that you provided does it speak of the people bowing down to idols (statues of Mary). In fact, the context of the Scripture that you provided shows that the LORD GOD is the center of worship:

• 18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee: 19 And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision. 20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king. 21 And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings unto the LORD, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel: 22 And did eat and drink before the LORD on that day with great gladness. 1 Chronicles 29:18-22

It does not do anyone any good to read the Scriptures to back up their own bias, especially when it contradicts the truth of the Word of God.

Secondly, the Ark was commanded by God to be built as an instrument in a place where HE, GOD would meet with the children of Israel.

• 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering. 3 And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass, 4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, 5 And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood, 6 Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense, 7 Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate. 8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. 11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about. 12 And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the four corners thereof; and two rings shall be in the one side of it, and two rings in the other side of it. 13 And thou shalt make staves of shittim wood, and overlay them with gold. 14 And thou shalt put the staves into the rings by the sides of the ark, that the ark may be borne with them. 15 The staves shall be in the rings of the ark: they shall not be taken from it. 16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee. 17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. 18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. Exodus 25:1-22

The Ark It was built exactly as ordered by God, and the Ark was built so that God could be present with the children of Israel. No where does God command believers to build statues of Mary and bow down and pray to these idols, nor is God present to meet the idol worshippers there as it is against his commandments to not build or worship graven images. The Jews that were obedient to the commandments of God did not worship anything other than God Almighty.

May God be glorified with those believers who worship Him in spirit and in truth, and may those who are in error be given the wisdom and understanding to repent and turn to God Almighty, away from the lust of the flesh, the things of the world, and the lies of satan. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[Solo]

I'm not defending Catholicism or statues of Mary, but doesn't this effectively rule out making statues of Jesus also, because of the way you are applying it?

~Josh

The commandment of God effectively rules out making statue of Jesus as well.

 

[golfjack]

reply

You are right Solo, No statues of anyone in heaven. Good point.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[francisdesales]

First of all, it is apparant that you pick and choose your Scriptures to back the false teachings of Roman Catholicism. No where in the Scripture that you provided does it speak of the people bowing down to idols (statues of Mary).

And nowhere does the Catholic Church say that Mary is an idol. See, another false accusation levied against the Church. Mary is not God. We don't see her as God. So how is she an idol? An idol is something that takes the place of the true God. So this is all a bit of a strawman argument, wouldn't you think?

Secondly, the Ark was commanded by God to be built as an instrument in a place where HE, GOD would meet with the children of Israel.

Yes, thanks. I know that, and the Catholic Church continues the practice, begun with the Ark, continued with the Jerusalem Temple, and now, in the Catholic Church. We also meet Christ at the Mass, which is invariably celebrated in the presence of those statues inside the Church. They serve as reminders of those who have gone before us, role models of how one can follow Christ. Do you disapprove of considering St. Paul a model? If so, you would be rejecting the Word of God, since Paul tells the Corinthians to imitate him.

No where does God command believers to build statues of Mary and bow down and pray to these idols, nor is God present to meet the idol worshippers there as it is against his commandments to not build or worship graven images. The Jews that were obedient to the commandments of God did not worship anything other than God Almighty.

Again, another strawman, since we don't worship Mary, anyway. Graven images are built with the intent of worshiping something AS A GOD. We don't do that, just as you don't worship the Bible.

Joe

 

[Solo]

Again, another strawman, since we don't worship Mary, anyway. Graven images are built with the intent of worshiping something AS A GOD. We don't do that, just as you don't worship the Bible.

Joe

And there are no liars in Roman Catholicism, huh?!

 

[jgredline]

I would say that this should put this issue to rest :-D
The ole kudegra.......

:

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Dang she's so holy she shouldn't have even had Jesus, I guess?

Ouch, I think me face just got sunburned!

 

[francisdesales]

And there are no liars in Roman Catholicism, huh?!

I hadn't realized you could read other peoples' minds and know whether they were worshiping AS GOD or merely offering respect. I think you could place the Queen of England in all of those pictures - does that mean they would be worshiping her as God?

Anything we do CAN be veneration, respect, OR worship, depending on the inner disposition of the person. You don't know the inner disposition of any of those people in the picture, so how can you judge them?

Let's leave to God what is God's work.

Regards

 

[Solo]

And there are no liars in Roman Catholicism, huh?!

I hadn't realized you could read other peoples' minds and know whether they were worshiping AS GOD or merely offering respect. I think you could place the Queen of England in all of those pictures - does that mean they would be worshiping her as God?

Anything we do CAN be veneration, respect, OR worship, depending on the inner disposition of the person. You don't know the inner disposition of any of those people in the picture, so how can you judge them?

Let's leave to God what is God's work.

Regards

Two things go against your explanation concerning Roman Catholicism worship of Mary and other person's of Roman Catholic "veneration". The first, is the actions and writings of Roman Catholic magisterium, and the second is one of the gifts of the Spirit that I have been given, is the gift of discerning of spirits.

Do you not know that all born again believers have the ability to see and hear the spiritual things of God, but that those who have not been born again, cannot?

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:12-13

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

And nowhere does the Catholic Church say that Mary is an idol. See, another false accusation levied against the Church. Mary is not God. We don't see her as God. So how is she an idol? An idol is something that takes the place of the true God.

Well seeing that Rome was full of many idols would this be unusual? I think it's called Polytheism, a practice your most familiar with!

So this is all a bit of a strawman argument, wouldn't you think?

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

You are right Solo, No statues of anyone in heaven. Good point.

First of all, how would you know?

Second of all, why would you need a statue when you got the real thing right there?

Regards