Catholics and Mary = Protestants and the Bible?

[francisdesales]

Two things go against your explanation concerning Roman Catholicism worship of Mary and other person's of Roman Catholic "veneration". The first, is the actions and writings of Roman Catholic magisterium, and the second is one of the gifts of the Spirit that I have been given, is the gift of discerning of spirits.

Do you not know that all born again believers have the ability to see and hear the spiritual things of God, but that those who have not been born again, cannot?

Sorry, I'm not buying your claim, because I have been born again, as well... I could just as easily make the same claim that God guides my every decision and act and that makes everything you say that disagrees with me a "false gospel". This sort of argument from authority (mind you, the ultimate one) is a faulty debate tactic that proves absolutely nothing. EVERYONE can make your claim.

Such claims can't be backed up, as the Scriptures guarantee infalliblity to the Church, not the individual who makes the claims you do.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Gal 1:8-9

What this says is that you may be following a disguised angel of light.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Sorry, I'm not buying your claim, because I have been born again, as well... I could just as easily make the same claim that God guides my every decision and act and that makes everything you say that disagrees with me a "false gospel". This sort of argument from authority (mind you, the ultimate one) is a faulty debate tactic that proves absolutely nothing. EVERYONE can make your claim.

Everyone can make the same claim, but the truth is that they have not. Only those who have been born again have the discernment of the spiritual things of God. It is very apparant that you have not been born again as you have given your authority in Christ Jesus over to the pagan entity called the Roman Catholic churhc. This church is not the body of Christ but is a satanic counterfeit of the true ekklesia.

Such claims can't be backed up, as the Scriptures guarantee infalliblity to the Church, not the individual who makes the claims you do.

No where in the Scriptures is the Roman Catholic church guarenteed infallibility. The false teachings of Roman Catholicism guarantees the infallibility to the "church".

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Gal 1:8-9

What this says is that you may be following a disguised angel of light.

Regards

This Scripture is plain that those who teach the gospel of Roman Catholicism is accursed. The god of the Roman Catholic church is satan. I continue to pray for your coming out of this satanic organization so that you might bring others out and bring glory to God Almighty. I understand that the knots that you have tied are not easy ones for you to untie, as it will take a drastic change in your life. Just as Jesus was grieved when the young ruler would not sell all that he had and follow Jesus in order to be saved, many will continue in their status quo style of life, unable to untie the knots. May you be given the strength and understanding to follow Jesus Christ; and preach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ so that others may be saved and bound for heavens glory with their savior Jesus Christ. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[cyberjosh]

The commandment of God effectively rules out making statue of Jesus as well.

Interesting. I'll go with that. But either way I don't believe this applies to pictures. I hardly think I should take my picture of Jesus off the wall.

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

It is very apparant that you have not been born again as you have given your authority in Christ Jesus over to the pagan entity called the Roman Catholic churhc.

Solo, be very careful. This is the type of rant I had in my OP of my "applying your salvation stance thread". Don't make presumptuous claims that someone is not saved based on your differences with another person. Only if a person openly denies Christ as God and Savior can you be absolutely sure. Otherwise you risk bringing judgement on yourself if you are wrong.

"Judge not according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement" (John 7:24)

 

[Guest]

Interesting. I'll go with that. But either way I don't believe this applies to pictures. I hardly think I should take my picture of Jesus off the wall.

~Josh

But how do you know your picture of Jesus is what He looked like? Not to mention that He is no longer in human form - so one really does not know what he looks like.

Not only do I believe that we should not have pictures or statues of Jesus, it is a false imagary of Christ - because noone knows what he looks like!

 

[francisdesales]

Everyone can make the same claim, but the truth is that they have not.

For the sake of argument, when if I have? What then? You would have two infallible people with opposed views, a logical impossibility. I don't buy it. I don't see the Scriptures making that claim.

Only those who have been born again have the discernment of the spiritual things of God.

At what level? I think it is more a general sense, Mike. That Jesus has Risen and that we are called to convert to His ways. Nothing more. Nothing about physics.

It is very apparant that you have not been born again as you have given your authority in Christ Jesus over to the pagan entity called the Roman Catholic churhc. This church is not the body of Christ but is a satanic counterfeit of the true ekklesia.

Sticks and stones... And the Church has claimed infallibility longer than you, so you are on the wrong side following the disguised angel of light.

This Scripture is plain that those who teach the gospel of Roman Catholicism is accursed.

Verse, please.

The god of the Roman Catholic church is satan.

Sticks and stones...

I continue to pray for your coming out of this satanic organization so that you might bring others out and bring glory to God Almighty.

I pray that you may come to a better understanding of the fullness of knowledge found ONLY within the Catholic Church while we journey in this life. And since the Church has been called infallible even within the Bible, you will have to explain at what point this infallibility has been removed and given to you.

I understand that the knots that you have tied are not easy ones for you to untie, as it will take a drastic change in your life.

I believe you have had a drastic change in your life, but now you are confused on what is the truth, just like Pilate. That disguised angel has got his hold on you, dragging you to and fro...

I will keep you in my prayers today as I adore Christ in the Eucharist.

Joe

 

[francisdesales]

Interesting. I'll go with that. But either way I don't believe this applies to pictures. I hardly think I should take my picture of Jesus off the wall.

~Josh

Explain the difference between a visible likeness cast in stone and on a piece of paper, theologically. Are you saying that if someone worshiped a photographic picture, they would be OK with God - that God is only offended by stone images????

 

[francisdesales]

Not to mention that He is no longer in human form -

WHAT!!!!

Incredible... The Son of God has united Himself with humanity FOREVER! Of course He is in human form. He is of glorified flesh, uncorruptible. He ascended into heaven in that form. Do you find anywhere in the Bible that says He cast aside this form?

Regards

 

[Guest]

WHAT!!!!

Incredible... The Son of God has united Himself with humanity FOREVER! Of course He is in human form. He is of glorified flesh, uncorruptible. He ascended into heaven in that form. Do you find anywhere in the Bible that says He cast aside this form?

Regards

By human form I was speaking of flesh and blood, muscles, fat, etc etc.

Christ was bodily resurrected in a glorified body - do YOU know what that looks like?

 

[francisdesales]

By human form I was speaking of flesh and blood, muscles, fat, etc etc.

Christ was bodily resurrected in a glorified body - do YOU know what that looks like?

Sure.

He has two legs, two arms, a head, a face, all with flesh. He looks entirely human. What does glorified flesh look like? It must possess the ability to travel long distances and walk through walls, yet be able to eat food. I would say it looks very similar to our own flesh, just not corruptible.

Regards

 

[Guest]

Sure.

He has two legs, two arms, a head, a face, all with flesh. He looks entirely human. What does glorified flesh look like? It must possess the ability to travel long distances and walk through walls, yet be able to eat food. I would say it looks very similar to our own flesh, just not corruptible.

Regards

Since you said Sure - does that mean you can draw me a picture of what He looks like?

 

[francisdesales]

Since you said Sure - does that mean you can draw me a picture of what He looks like?

I could if I was an artist. It would look just like a human being. The particulars, however, I could not, because I don't know the color of His hair or His height. These have not been revealed to us publicly, although some have privately been given this revelation (they claim).

Regards

 

[Solo]

It is very apparant that you have not been born again as you have given your authority in Christ Jesus over to the pagan entity called the Roman Catholic churhc.

Solo, be very careful. This is the type of rant I had in my OP of my "applying your salvation stance thread". Don't make presumptuous claims that someone is not saved based on your differences with another person. Only if a person openly denies Christ as God and Savior can you be absolutely sure. Otherwise you risk bringing judgement on yourself if you are wrong.

"Judge not according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement" (John 7:24)

There is a Unity of the Faith, and in this Unity it is obvious to those that are born again when one is parading around as an angel of light. The Scriptures are clear that those who are born again know and recognize the spiritual things of God where those that are not born again cannot see the truth. Those that are born again, have the mind of Christ; and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can discern the false teachings and false prophets in this world. Know that those who are born again, judge all things.

• 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16

The judge not lest ye be judged command exists for the purpose of folks not judging others unrighteously, and it plays no part in the discernment of false teachings and false prophets.


14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:14

 

[cyberjosh]

The judge not lest ye be judged command exists for the purpose of folks not judging others unrighteously, and it plays no part in the discernment of false teachings and false prophets.

I know, but its not impossible that a believer could be mislead into false teaching. Take the Galatians for example or the Colossians. Also the Bible says that the elect might even be decieved.

At any rate, I for one refrain from such judgements personally. I would attack the false teaching not the person taken in by it, for only unto God does a man stand or fall. Just a word of advice, because I (though I disagree with Francis on many matters of his Catholic Doctrine) believe that he is saved.

I digress.

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Explain the difference between a visible likeness cast in stone and on a piece of paper, theologically. Are you saying that if someone worshiped a photographic picture, they would be OK with God - that God is only offended by stone images????

Actually when I said that I had the "moral freedom" objection in the back of my mind but I didn't feel like debating it at the time. What I mean is that I would have moral freedom to put a statue of Jesus in my house if I so desired which I don't believe I would be condemned for, but I sympathized with the fact that the Bible commands that no image be made of God (primarily to prevent idolatry - God is clever like that - if you can't make a picture of it or even describe your object of worship you can hardly reduce its likeness into something of stone or wood - unlike what the Israelites did by sustituting God's holy image for the calf). I understand that knowing what Jesus' physical appearance was like is vain, and certainly shouldn't be prayed to (its just a statue), but yes there would be no difference if I prayed to a picture of Jesus than if I prayed to a statue of Jesus. But since Jesus' physical appearance is largely a vain issue then only the symbolism carries any weight of what the image conveys and also what you do with it.

I digress.

~Josh

 

[Solo]

I know, but its not impossible that a believer could be mislead into false teaching. Take the Galatians for example or the Colossians. Also the Bible says that the elect might even be decieved.

At any rate, I for one refrain from such judgements personally. I would attack the false teaching not the person taken in by it, for only unto God does a man stand or fall. Just a word of advice, because I (though I disagree with Francis on many matters of his Catholic Doctrine) believe that he is saved.

I digress.

~Josh

Do a study on Paul's dealings with false teachings and false prophets. Read about what John says about false teachers and the spirit of antichrist. It is not flesh and blood that we battle but the enemy of God who has lied and deceived many. Jesus even told Peter, "Get thee behind me satan."

As far as the elect being deceived, Jesus indicates that it is not possible to deceive the elect.

• For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

There are many parts of the body of Christ. Some are given the gift of mercy, and some are given the gift of proclaiming God's Word (prophesy), while others are given the gift of discerning spirits. Those who have the gift of discerning spirits can judge false prophets in order to protect believers at the various stages of spiritual maturity, by revealing false doctrines, false teachers teachers, and doctrines of devils.

• 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

 

[francisdesales]

There is a Unity of the Faith, and in this Unity it is obvious to those that are born again when one is parading around as an angel of light.

The "unity of faith" is clearly delineated in the writings of the first Christians, those who heard directly from the Apostles. They tell us something totally different from what you claim on a variety of topics. Thus, according to this "unity of faith", this Gospel transmitted to the next generation of Christians who were taught to read Scriptures and act a certain way, you are being bewitched by a disguised angel.

What you are telling us, in effect, is that the first Christians got the Gospel so screwed up - AND NO ONE SAID ANYTHING IN PROTEST!!!

Amazing how these "false" Christians went to the lions willingly for Christ, preaching something different then what you preach. What is even more amazing is that no "true" Christian complained about these "false" Christians' beliefs.

WHERE OH WHERE are these "Protestant" beliefs in the first MILLENIUM???!!!

If you want to know how the first Christians read the Bible, how they were taught to think and act like Christians from the Apostles themselves, read the writers of the first 2 centuries of the common era. If you want to follow a false gospel, read what was invented 1500 years later, unheard of in the "pillar and foundation of the truth".

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Do a study on Paul's dealings with false teachings and false prophets. Read about what John says about false teachers and the spirit of antichrist. It is not flesh and blood that we battle but the enemy of God who has lied and deceived many. Jesus even told Peter, "Get thee behind me satan."

As far as the elect being deceived, Jesus indicates that it is not possible to deceive the elect.

• For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

There are many parts of the body of Christ. Some are given the gift of mercy, and some are given the gift of proclaiming God's Word (prophesy), while others are given the gift of discerning spirits. Those who have the gift of discerning spirits can judge false prophets in order to protect believers at the various stages of spiritual maturity, by revealing false doctrines, false teachers teachers, and doctrines of devils.

• 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

AMEN

 

[Solo]

One day I pray, Joe, that you too will be a born again believer teaching the truth of the Word of God, instead of the false gospel of Roman Catholicism. God will be glorified in your submission to the LORD JESUS CHRIST instead of the false god of Roman Catholicism.

 

[cyberjosh]

Those who have the gift of discerning spirits can judge false prophets in order to protect believers

And do you have this gift? If so are you sure you are not judging Joe for the beliefs and actions of the Catholic Church as a whole? Do you know Joe personally to be able to tell the state of his heart? Forums can be misleading sometimes because its sometimes hard to put into words your convictions. I've had many a person misread me because of the limitations of expressing my views with words. Judge with righteous judgement.

I say it is safer to not judge someone on this issue than to judge. That is my main point. Judging is ultimately and absolutely God's job.

P.S. However you make it sound as if no believer can be decieved. That's a lie. I've been decieved many times as a believer. Hebrews also talks about the decietfulness of sin. Over time my conceptions were corrected, but its false to say that a believer cannot be decieved or that even by the end of a believer's life that he/she will have everything correct.

~Josh