Catholics and Mary = Protestants and the Bible?

[jgredline]

What you are telling us, in effect, is that the first Christians got the Gospel so screwed up - AND NO ONE SAID ANYTHING IN PROTEST!!!

Joe,
I have read every post in this thread and Solo never said this....You are bearing false witness....

 

[francisdesales]

One day I pray, Joe, that you too will be a born again believer teaching the truth of the Word of God, instead of the false gospel of Roman Catholicism. God will be glorified in your submission to the LORD JESUS CHRIST instead of the false god of Roman Catholicism.

I thought you said a person is born again for believing in Christ independently on their religious affiliation. I thought we were saved by faith, not by works of belonging to your affiliation. Now you are telling me I cannot be saved if I am Catholic? Poppycock.

Where does the Bible say that I must be born again ONLY in your denomination? I await your verse.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Joe,
I have read every post in this thread and Solo never said this....You are bearing false witness....

You are having a problem understanding what is written (again).

Here is what I wrote...

"What you are telling us, in effect, is that the first Christians got the Gospel so screwed up - AND NO ONE SAID ANYTHING IN PROTEST!!! "

The words "IN EFFECT" is key to this, Javier. I am not quoting Mike. I am saying "This is what Mike is saying, in summary." I am summarizing Mike's stance. By bringing out Mike's point of view in this manner, my purpose is to show that it makes no sense.

"The first Christians got it all wrong" is what he is saying BECAUSE the first Christians were Catholic in belief! By saying that Catholic beliefs are wrong is saying that the first Christians who heard the Apostles were their own EARS were wrong!!!

That is what he is saying. Without quoting him, that is exactly his view. And it make no sense...

Regards

 

[Solo]

And do you have this gift? If so are you sure you are not judging Joe for the beliefs and actions of the Catholic Church as a whole? Do you know Joe personally to be able to tell the state of his heart? Forums can be misleading sometimes because its sometimes hard to put into words your convictions. I've had many a person misread me because of the limitations of expressing my views with words. Judge with righteous judgement.

I say it is safer to not judge someone on this issue than to judge. That is my main point. Judging is ultimately and absolutely God's job.

~Josh

You are wrong in your assessment of judging being the ultimate and absolute job of God without including the indwelling of God within believers. The Scriptures that I posted show that those that are born again have the mind of Christ, and they also have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Is not God judging the false teachings and false teachers as they roam the world as angels of light?

How do you discern and judge whether one is teaching false doctrines or doctrines of devils? How do you discern and judge whether a false teacher is teaching those whom you love? What is your response?

• 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

What do the Scriptures say concerning false teachings and false teachers?

• Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15
  
  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:11
  
  4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. 5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister. 6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: 7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. 9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, 10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? 11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. Acts 13:4-11
  
  13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
  
  4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. Galatians 2:4-5
  
  1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 2 Timothy 3:1-9
  
  1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 2 Peter 2:1-3
  
  1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
  
  1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 2 Timothy 4:1-5
  
  10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:10-16

 

[cyberjosh]

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

You must realize that Paul said this to Galatian believers though. They were mislead, and Paul wrote this to them to correct that. He said that they had run well, he was perplexed at what had happened. He acknowledged that they were saved. This was exactly my point, believers can be mislead just like the Galatians had been mislead.

~Josh

 

[Solo]

You must realize that Paul said this to Galatian believers though. They were mislead, and Paul wrote this to them to correct that. He said that they had run well, he was perplexed at what had happened. He acknowledged that they were saved. This was exactly my point, believers can be mislead just like the Galatians had been mislead.

~Josh

Paul is warning the Galatians of false teachers.

 

[cyberjosh]

Paul is warning the Galatians of false teachers.

And why were the Galatians in need of such an exhortation? So that they would not follow after the false teachers deceptive doctrines (which they had already begun to do). I don't see where our confusion over the issue is here.

~Josh

 

[Solo]

And why were the Galatians in need of such an exhortation? So that they would not follow after the false teachers deceptive doctrines (which they had already begun to do). I don't see where our confusion over the issue is here.

~Josh

Do Roman Catholic teachings mislead individuals?

 

[francisdesales]

Do Roman Catholic teachings mislead individuals?

I believe you mislead what the Catholic Church teaches. On practically every subject, you tell us all a strawman version of the Catholic Church, which I have consistently shown as wrong. The latest version was your misunderstanding of "no salvation outside the Church" (and, as usual, when shown wrong, you suddenly drop out of the conversation) You give a one-sided, out-of-context quote while ignoring the sentence that follows that explains the Catholic view.

Isn't that the action of someone who is misleading others?

We are warned of false teachers. You accuse the first Christians of being false teachers, thus, nullifying the Word of Christ, who promised to send His Spirit of Truth to the Church. Tell me, then. At what point did the Church "get it wrong"? The next generation following the Apostles? That doesn't say much for God's work if you believe that Christ's teachings were so muddled by the end of the first century as to be deemed total apostasy.

What is curious, Mike, is that we see ABSOLUTELY NO OUTCRY! Wouldn't you think that one "true" follower of Christ would have written something about the Eucharist being REALLY taught as only a metaphor, not a reality?

This is why I could not leave the Church, despite some of the negatives of individuals. It's all smoke and mirrors that you present. Pure and simple, the Catholic Church is the continuation of Christ's teaching Church. There is no public outcry of apostasy because there IS no "community-wide" writings condemning entire communities for "heretical" teachings. Common sense dicatates that you are misguided, and thus, I could never accept your judgment of my beliefs, no matter how much infallibility you foist from twisting the words of Sacred Writ.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Joe,
I know that you will not leave Roman Catholicism, Joe. One day you will come to know that your decision to follow the teachings of the Roman Catholic institution instead of following Jesus Christ is as tragic as the ruler in Luke who obeyed the commandments since his youth but refused to give up what was keeping him from following Jesus Christ.

• 18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! Luke 18:18-24

 

[cyberjosh]

Do Roman Catholic teachings mislead individuals?

Yes I do believe that.

Hey Solo, perhaps you could do something that would help me (and perhaps others) out. Could you just give a summarized list of every doctrine your know of the Catholic Church that is misleading and put beside it what you believe the eventual or inevitable consequence is?

For example you might put:

1. Transsubstantiation - ~~~~

2. Praying to Mary - ~~~~~

etc.

This would help me put your views into perspective tremendously and also perhaps cover some ground not yet put into such a simple format as I suggest. Maybe this will even give Joe a chance to see where you are coming from.

God Bless,

~Josh