Changed from pretribulation to post-tribulation view of the rapture

[JLB]

Again you wish to take different events at different times and make them appear as one event. But that is simply impossible. The Day of Christ is for the Rapture (SALVATION) and the Day of the Lord (LORD) is for wrath (DAMNATION).

And you wish to suggest that God does not distinguish between salvation and damnation, and just muddles up everything. But God is not the Author of Confusion, and all things happen in a proper, logical, spiritual, divine sequence.

Paul speaks about "the day of Christ" when he is referring to the Rapture. But the Day of the Lord corresponds to the Great Tribulation, which is a period of time, not one day.

I’m taking one event, the coming of the Lord, and the resurrection/rapture and showing from the scriptures what happens at this event.


You are trying to take this one event, and split it up into second coming A and Second coming B, with no scriptural support.

Your just stating all the things you were taught and not the scriptures.



As you have stated already, the resurrection and rapture are one event that occurs at His coming.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3

• For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them.

The wicked are destroyed at the coming of the Lord, the same coming by which we are raptured and resurrected.

• The Lord Jesus resurrects the Church at His coming.
• The Lord Jesus raptures the Church at His coming.
• The Lord Jesus destroys the wicked at His coming.

All shown right here in 1 Thessalonians 4-5.




JLB

 

[john darling]

11-14 where Christ returns in the air with His army of angels He sends out to gather those alive at His coming and those asleep in their graves

This isn't what the verses from Rev 19 say, though. They aren't going out to gather souls. They are going out to battle.
---
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army
---

Also, there's nothing here about angels being the army gathered behind him. The marriage supper has just happened. The bride is gathered and given their fine linen, clean and white. Rev 19:8. It specifically says this is the clothing of the saints, who are celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb. Rev 19:7.

Then, in verse 14 it talks about this army following Jesus on white horses being clothed in fine linen, clean and white, exactly as verse 8 describes the saints. The whole context of the passage is that of already raptured saints celebrating the marriage supper of the Lord and then following Jesus into the final battle of Armageddon, which is the last bowl of wrath, the previous 6 of which were being poured out on a rebellious world below while the marriage supper was happening up above.

 

[for_his_glory]

This isn't what the verses from Rev 19 say, though. They aren't going out to gather souls. They are going out to battle.
---
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army
---

Also, there's nothing here about angels being the army gathered behind him. The marriage supper has just happened. The bride is gathered and given their fine linen, clean and white. Rev 19:8. It specifically says this is the clothing of the saints, who are celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb. Rev 19:7.

Then, in verse 14 it talks about this army following Jesus on white horses being clothed in fine linen, clean and white, exactly as verse 8 describes the saints. The whole context of the passage is that of already raptured saints celebrating the marriage supper of the Lord and then following Jesus into the final battle of Armageddon, which is the last bowl of wrath, the previous 6 of which were being poured out on a rebellious world below while the marriage supper was happening up above.

Man's theory teaches this army are the saints of God as they misinterpret what is already written. When you read Rev 19:1-6 in John's vision he hears great voices rejoicing in heaven for at that time mystery Babylon has been revealed and destroyed. God has now avenged the blood of the saints that have cried out to Him from under the altar that we read of in Rev 16:9-11.

We have to remember that it's only our breath/spirit that makes us a living soul that returns back to God when this physical body dies as the flesh returns back to the dust (ground) from whence it came, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. Also John 3:13 makes it very clear that no one, other than Christ, has ascended up to heaven as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

These voices John heard were that of the heavenly host (angels) and the 24 elders and the four beast that bow before God's Throne. The twenty-four elders are elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

The twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6; 19:4 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.

The seven Spirits are wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, power and fear (respect) of the Lord. The four beasts represent that of the four Gospels being taught in the governing Church here on Earth that is patterned after heaven.This is a separate study that I will post in another thread to explain all of this.

Rev 19:7-10 coincides with vs. 11-21 as after mystery Babylon is revealed and destroyed and heaven rejoices, Christ now returns from the third heaven to that of the first heaven, which is the air.

At this time the Bride has prepared herself to meet her Groom as Christ and His army of the host of heaven descends to the air as He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather the saints, Matthew 24:29-3; John 5:28, 29; 6:40, while at the brightness of His coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, Jesus destroys the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire and the remnant that followed after the beast and took it's mark are slain by the words that proceed out of the mouth of Christ. No where does scripture ever say the saints of God are His army.

 

[for_his_glory]

john darling

Battle of Armageddon

Gog, Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9 after the 1000 years when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit and brings his army of demons to surround the camp of the saints and the Holy City Jerusalem, but God sends fire down from heaven to devour all of them and Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
(1000 years is a figurative number, not a literal number. It is figurative like the numbering in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.)

Zechariah 14:1, 2; Luke 21:20 and Rev 16:16 is the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return, Rev 19:19. Christ will destroy the beast and the false prophet casting them into the lake of fire. Rev 19:17-19 the remnant being all the world leaders and those who took the mark of the beast from every nation and as they are the armies that come to fight against Christ in Jerusalem when He returns, but will also be destroyed by the words that proceed out of the mouth of Christ.

Except those days be shortened, Matthew 24:22. These days are shortened for a time that only God holds back or extends to allow His purpose for the last one to repent and turn back to Him before Christ returns, Rev 19, as God alone knows their name. Only God can shorten days like He did with Hezekiah as He caused the sundial to go backwards ten degrees, which was possibly five hours and again in Joshua 10:12-14 God extended the daylight for Joshua to defeat the Amorites.

Christ returns on the last day at the seventh trumpet and on that day His Bride being the collective body of believers through faith in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption will be caught up to Him. Both asleep in their grave and those who are alive at His coming will then be kept safe on that day while Christ fights the final battle casting the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and slaying all those nations (people) who come out to fight against Him.

(John 5:25-30; 6:40; Ephesians 1:3-14;1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19; Zechariah 14:1-6; Luke 21:20-22)

 

[for_his_glory]

Well you still IMAGINE that Jesus is coming twice, even after His coming for the Rapture is momentary. You are welcome to your misapprehension. As to the seven trumpet judgments THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RAPTURE. So there you go. You are muddling wrath with salvation, another misapprehension.


Why would it be a metaphor when that is a plain statement of fact. Another misapprehension? The Resurrection/ Rapture is SUPERNATURAL.

Now this is plainly delusional, and Scripture does not allow such faulty interpretations. Looks like you will hang on to your faulty ideas by making actual events "metaphorical". Next salvation will be called metaphorical, and everything else in the Bible will mean something else altogether. As though God wants to deliberately mislead us.

Please do not be so sarcastic as we are having a discussion, not a I'm right, your wrong debate. One can either believe how these pretrib theory teachers present their interpretations as even I once believed or believe that which is already written. Much of scripture is literal and also symbolic and when we learn what the symbolism is, especially in Revelations, by rightly dividing the word of God then the Holy Spirit will reveal the mysteries found in scripture.

I don't claim to know everything, but that which I deeply research comes against the traditional doctrines of man that many fall prey to. If we do not agree, so be it, but yet we can present that of what we believe and let each other study for themselves.

 

[for_his_glory]

This isn't what the verses from Rev 19 say, though. They aren't going out to gather souls. They are going out to battle.
---
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army
---

Also, there's nothing here about angels being the army gathered behind him. The marriage supper has just happened. The bride is gathered and given their fine linen, clean and white. Rev 19:8. It specifically says this is the clothing of the saints, who are celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb. Rev 19:7.

Then, in verse 14 it talks about this army following Jesus on white horses being clothed in fine linen, clean and white, exactly as verse 8 describes the saints. The whole context of the passage is that of already raptured saints celebrating the marriage supper of the Lord and then following Jesus into the final battle of Armageddon, which is the last bowl of wrath, the previous 6 of which were being poured out on a rebellious world below while the marriage supper was happening up above.

Rev 19:14 only says the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. It never mentions the word saints. The clothing of the angels are the same as the clothing of the saints as it is not physical fine linen robes, clean and white, but that of being clothed in the righteousness of God, Rev 19:8.

If you compare Rev 19:14 with Matthew 25:31 and Revelation 1:7 you see it is the angels that return with Him from heaven, not the saints for at this time the angels are sent out to gather the saints from the four corners of the world , Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[john darling]

Rev 19:14 only says the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. It never mentions the word saints.

Hi FHG. No, verse 14 does not mention the word saints, but neither does it need to in order to understand that these are the saints with Jesus. That's why I pointed out that the description of the clothing is the same.

These voices John heard were that of the heavenly host (angels)

Revelation 19:1 says it is the voice of much people in Heaven (the KJV does, anyway). Verse 7 makes it even more clear that these people are the bride of Christ. Angels are not the bride of Christ. The saints are the Bride of Christ. Verse 8, she's given fine linen clean and white and this verse specifically says these people are the saints.

Revelation 19:14, Immediately following the marriage supper of the lamb, he sees Heaven open and an army on white horses wearing fin linen, clean and white rides out with him to a battle. There is nothing bout collecting souls here. Verse 15 specifically says they are going out to tread the winepress of God's wrath. This corresponds perfectly to the 7 bowls of wrath finishing up, with the 7th bowl being the battle of Armageddon to which this army is riding out to. Verse 19 makes this super clear. It says the battle they will fight is against the kings of the earth who have gathered together there to fight him.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG. No, verse 14 does not mention the word saints, but neither does it need to in order to understand that these are the saints with Jesus. That's why I pointed out that the description of the clothing is the same.

Saints and angels are not dressed in actual literal clothing as fine linen, white and clean is the righteousness of God they are clothed in being their righteous acts here on earth and the host in heaven, Rev 19:8. Vs 14 does not mention the word saints and we can not assume this army are the saints of God in light of the scriptures that say different. Saints have never done battle for the Lord as He and His angels have always gone in battles before us for us.

Rev 19:1 much people is just a reference for the multitude of angels, the Cherubim, the 24 elders, and the four beast being the four gospels as they all give praise for mystery Babylon is destroyed. I've already explained this with scripture.

Now comes the time God will avenge the blood of the martyred saints that cry out from under the altar in heaven, (again breath/spirit that returns back to God when we die, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7) as they were told to wait until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled, Rev 6:9-11. This will be fulfilled after those who did not take the mark of the beast will die a martyr's death as their breath?spirit returns back to God.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When does all of this happen?
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Nathan12]

Saints have never done battle for the Lord as He and His angels have always gone in battles before us for us.

While the word "armies" is used for both the saints and angels who will accompany Christ at His second coming, none of them will need to do battle. They will come as witnesses to the battle of Armageddon.

But it is the words of Christ Himself which will supernaturally and divinely destroy all His enemies. He will destroy them with the "breath of His mouth", meaning the words from His mouth.
New American Standard Bible (2 Thess 2:8)
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
King James Bible (2 Thess 2:8)
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The Hebrew and Greek words for spirit and breath are the same. Context determines the meaning. Just as Christ commands the winds, the waves, the demons, and Satan, He commands the destruction of the armies gathered at the battle of Armageddon, while the saints and angels look on.

 

[john darling]

But it is the words of Christ Himself which will supernaturally and divinely destroy all His enemies. He will destroy them with the "breath of His mouth", meaning the words from His mouth.

For once I agree with you, Nathan! ^.^

 

[JLB]

For once I agree with you, Nathan! ^.^

When will He destroy him with the breath of His mouth?


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

• whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

At His coming!




JLB

 

[Nathan12]

At His coming!

And "at His coming" Christ will be coming WITH His armies of saints and angels. But how did the saints get to Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb BEFORE His coming? That can only be resolved through the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, when Christ comes "in the air" MOMENTARILY for His saints and takes them all to Heaven.

 

[JLB]

And "at His coming" Christ will be coming WITH His armies of saints and angels. But how did the saints get to Heaven

They died and went to heaven.


It’s all right here in 1 Thessalonians 4.

At His coming, Jesus comes with His saints who have died and are in heaven, for His saints who are alive and remain.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

• even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The resurrection
The rapture
The destruction of the wicked.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

While the word "armies" is used for both the saints and angels who will accompany Christ at His second coming, none of them will need to do battle. They will come as witnesses to the battle of Armageddon.

But it is the words of Christ Himself which will supernaturally and divinely destroy all His enemies. He will destroy them with the "breath of His mouth", meaning the words from His mouth.
New American Standard Bible (2 Thess 2:8)
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
King James Bible (2 Thess 2:8)
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The Hebrew and Greek words for spirit and breath are the same. Context determines the meaning. Just as Christ commands the winds, the waves, the demons, and Satan, He commands the destruction of the armies gathered at the battle of Armageddon, while the saints and angels look on.

I know what 2 Thessalonians 2:8 says, but this has nothing to do with the army that returns from heaven being the third heaven. This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God and no man has ever ascended up to the third heaven, (John 3:13).

Angels are also called the host of heaven that can not be numbered and angels can also be called saints and holy one's in scripture.

Genesis 1:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

2 Chronicles 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

Nehemiah 9: 6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Jeremiah 33: 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

The army that returns with Christ in Rev 19:14 are the angels from the third heaven as I already explained that no one has ever ascended up to heaven other then Jesus.

 

[Nathan12]

They died and went to heaven.

Some died and went to Heaven, while others will be raptured (and transformed with glorified bodies). The point though is that the ones who died need their resurrection bodies in order to return to Heaven, present themselves at the Marriage of the Lamb, then return with Christ "at His coming". And since the Resurrection/Rapture is all one event, it is a divine necessity that it precede the Second Coming.

 

[Nathan12]

The army that returns with Christ in Rev 19:14 are the angels from the third heaven as I already explained...

Both saints AND angels are present with Christ at His Coming and here's the proof that the saints are included in those "armies" (plural):
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:7,8)
Then we have this verse: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19:14)

Now no honest interpreter can say in good conscience that Revelation 19:14 refers to angels. That would be ABSURD and a violation of Bible truth. The correspondence between those two passages is crystal clear. Both refer to the saints of God, the children of God. Angels are never offered redemption nor the imputed righteousness of Christ. And that is the only righteousness which counts with God for those who will enter Heaven.

... that no one has ever ascended up to heaven other then Jesus...

I already explained what John 3:13 is all about, so why do you continue to promote ERROR, when the Bible makes it perfectly clear that (a) Enoch, (b) Elijah, (c) all the OT saints and (d) all the NT saints who have passed on are all presently in Heaven. And Paul clearly tells Christians who are alive that to be absent from the body (at death) is to be present with the Lord. Every Christian goes directly to Heaven, just like Stephen went directly to Heaven.

To me it is simply amazing how Christians can adopt so many erroneous ideas and false doctrines when the Bible provides us with the truth about these matters.

 

[for_his_glory]

Some died and went to Heaven, while others will be raptured (and transformed with glorified bodies). The point though is that the ones who died need their resurrection bodies in order to return to Heaven, present themselves at the Marriage of the Lamb, then return with Christ "at His coming". And since the Resurrection/Rapture is all one event, it is a divine necessity that it precede the Second Coming.

You've contradicted yourself as you said:
Some died and went to Heaven, while others will be raptured (and transformed with glorified bodies). The point though is that the ones who died need their resurrection bodies in order to return to Heaven

You have some that died that have gone to heaven without glorified bodies then you say they need glorified bodies to return to heaven. You can't have it both ways.

Again you have Christ returning twice form heaven where you said:
And since the Resurrection/Rapture is all one event, it is a divine necessity that it precede the Second Coming.

Christ only returns once with His army of angels, not twice. One resurrection, two different judgements.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the judgement seat of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory.

All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[for_his_glory]

The scriptures in Post #237 only show that it is angels who come with Christ from the third heaven. When He returns with these angels then He sends them out to the four corners of the earth to gather all the saints, dead and alive as we are all first changed and then meet Him and His angels in the air for then we will be with the Lord and all His holy angels forever. Angels are also clothed in the righteousness of God and just like humans, even angels fell from that righteousness as they are no longer clothed. I already explained that earlier.

I don't read nor believe in man's doctrines, but only that of what is already written in the scriptures. I don't even have a Pastor that I sit under as everything I present is straight from scripture, history and culture of the different eras found in scripture. Rightly dividing the word as in cross referencing the OT with the NT, learning prophecy and prophecy fulfilled. I alone will stand before the Lord and give account for that which I teach. I am also opened for correction when needed through the Holy Spirit either directly or working through others to correct me.

I use to believe in all these pretrib theories when I was yet without much knowledge, but as I grew Spiritually in the word of God I got away from all those bandwagon line my pocket pretrib 1800's teachers and threw away their books and quit reading their websites as I found what they teach is not found or proved anywhere in scripture. If you want to believe what they teach that is your choice, but I chose that of what is already written.

Just wanted you to know where I come from and why I believe the way I do. We will all know in the end.

 

[JLB]

Some died and went to Heaven, while others will be raptured (and transformed with glorified bodies). The point though is that the ones who died need their resurrection bodies in order to return to Heaven, present themselves at the Marriage of the Lamb, then return with Christ "at His coming". And since the Resurrection/Rapture is all one event, it is a divine necessity that it precede the Second Coming.

It’s plainly written in scripture that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.



But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


The rapture takes place at His coming.



Does this coming refer to the first coming or second coming?





JLB

 

[Nathan12]

It’s plainly written in scripture that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

No one is denying that. The real issue is that the Resurrection/Rapture is NOT the Second Coming of Christ. Two different events for two different reasons.