Changed from pretribulation to post-tribulation view of the rapture

[ezra]

i had no idea there was so many expert theologians in here. next you will pinpoint when christ returns the very day..

 

[Nathan12]

Here again you have Jesus returning twice.

If Jesus (a) comes in the air, (b) is present in the air momentarily, and (c) returns to Heaven immediately with all the saints, that is NOT the return of Christ to earth -- the Second Coming -- which is so totally different that there is no comparison.

Again, read the book of Enoch as he was never taken up to the third heaven, but only translated to the places of visions the angels showed him, not heaven.

The book of Enoch is NOT a part of Scripture -- the Bible canon. It is interesting, but it has always been excluded from the Hebrew canon. It is a pseudepigraphical book (written by someone claiming to be Enoch, and writing long after Enoch).

So let's stick to the Bible ( as you said you do) and agree that if God took him, and if God is in Heaven, then Enoch is also in Heaven. This is not rocket science. Therefore, if Enoch and Elijah were in Heaven when Christ said what He said in John 3:13, obviously He did not say what you think He said.

Christ was speaking about His absolute uniqueness as compared to any other man. He is the only one who descended from Heaven, He is the only one who would ascend to Heaven after a miraculous resurrection, and He is the only one who was present on earth and in Heaven at one and the same time. That is exactly what John 3:13 says.

 

[Nathan12]

i had no idea there was so many expert theologians in here. next you will pinpoint when christ returns the very day..

Not sure if this is addressed to me, but I have not claimed to be an expert theologian or a date-setter.

 

[Randy]

There are a few things that happen around this time which kinda confuse the issues. There will be a return of Jesus where he gathers his people, which all sides usually refer to as the rapture.

According to Jesus this happens after the Great Tribulation and Paul describes it happening at the last of the 7 trumpets of tribulation. But, according to the Revelation there is still more to be done after the Great Tribulation, especially the 7 bowls of wrath. Tribulation and wrath are often mistaken as being the same thing, but there is an important difference. Tribulation is something God allows all his people to experience, whereas wrath is specifically directed at the enemies of God.

It appears that the marriage supper described in Revelation 19 is happening up in Heaven while the 7 bowls of wrath are being poured out on a rebellious (and spiritually desolate) world below. This coincides with the description of Jesus on the white horse gathering his army of followers wearing white robes (the same robes described earlier in the chapter being given to the bride of Christ) and going down for a great battle which is almost certainly the final bowl of wrath, a.k.a the battle of Armageddon.

This gives the appearance of a second coming of Christ, but it's not.

I view the 5th to 7th trumps as concurrent with the reign of the beast. The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness.
While some disagree I see the beast being released from the abyss in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump. The one who overpowers and kills the two witnesses after their testimony has been completed (1260 days in Jerusalem). The beast reign is 42 months. In the end the lord comes and reigns. Rev 16:15

 

[ezra]

Not sure if this is addressed to me, but I have not claimed to be an expert theologian or a date-setter.

nope it is a general address the anti pre tribbers it will all happen the way God says.the rest of the pre mid trib..is interpretation not thus saith God

 

[Nathan12]

Can you explain how the resurrection and rapture can occur at His coming, but this is not the second coming?

The key is right here (1 Cor 15:52): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. In modern terminology we would say "a fraction of a second" or "in a nanosecond". So this is the Resurrection/Rapture (including both the dead and living saints).

Now contrast this with the Second Coming (Rev 19), which cannot possibly be in seconds, or even minutes. And we should note that the saints -- clothed in fine linen, white and clean -- accompany Christ descending, not ascending.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[john darling]

Then immediately per Matthew 24:29 and Rev 19:11-14 will Christ return with His army of angels as He sends them out to the four corners of the earth to gather those alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves that are His own as they are changed and then caught up to meet Christ in the air.

Hi FHG. In my previous post I suggested that the Matthew 24:19 reference describes a different event from what Rev 19:11-14 describes, but because they both deal with a description of Jesus come to the earth from Heaven it is easy to confuse them.

I agree that Matthew 24:29 is referring to the 2nd coming of Christ where he returns to the earth to collect his followers and that this happens at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Rev 11:15 also describes this happening. The 7th trumpet (of the GT) sounds and "the kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord". Notice in verse 18 "The nations were angry and your wrath has come."

This coincides with the Revelation 19 reference where the description is that of a Heavenly perspective. The Bride of Christ is already there with him (Rev 19:7), having just been raptured up to New Jerusalem at his second coming just after the 7th trumpet of the GT. They've been given their shining white robes, which are the works of the saints (not angels or whatever) Rev 19:8 and they are celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb (just like Jesus described in a few of his parables) Rev 19:9.

Then, (after the marriage supper) they all gather together on white horses behind Jesus who leads them down to a great battle. The last bowl of wrath is described as the battle of Armageddon.

Because this description involves Jesus coming down from a Heavenly perspective it is easy to confuse it with the 2nd coming of Christ where he (also) comes from a Heavenly perspective to gather his elect. They sound similar but they are two separate events, one which happens after the other.

The great tribulation is God's great wrath being poured out into the world during the sounding of the seven trumpets which include the seven vial judgments against those who took the mark of the beast

The last bowl of wrath is the battle of Armageddon (the 6th being where the armies of the earth are gathered together to fight that battle). It makes no sense to say the saints are there on the Earth as part of that battle when Revelation 19 shows them from a Heavenly perspective riding out with him to that battle.

What does make sense is a distinction between tribulation and wrath (which is why those two are separated into trumpets and vials). They sound similar but are fundamentally different in meaning.

The trumpets of the tribulation will necessarily affect the saints. Yes, there will be some protection there (the 144k being spared from the 5th trumpet is an example) but there is nothing to suggest that protection will be absolute. Millions of saints will die during the GT, but they will be doing so as a final witness to the world.

Wrath is specifically directed toward God's enemies and will be poured on the earth after the saints have been safely removed when Jesus returns at the last trumpet.

 

[john darling]

This is by God's allowance,

Sure, but you could say this about all sin; God allows it to happen even though he does not want it to happen. The temple is rebuilt because people invariably choose physical things (these days the church building has become the newer version of the temple) over spiritual things.

But unbelieving Jews (including Orthodox Jews) believe they are on the right track, and the true Messiah will appear either when this temple is built of just after. Indeed their expectation of Messiah is one of their fundamental beliefs.

Sure, because they choose to wrongly believe and not because it's written in prophecy that they shall wrongly believe. It's an important distinction. There are people who say Judas was wrongly accused because he wasn't being a bad person; he was only doing what the prophecy said he should do.

 

[FrostyKnuckles]

If we include the apostles in church history (which is only fair) they consistently believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture. Indeed, they taught the imminency of the Rapture, and I have already posted the appropriate Scriptures. What amazes me is that any Christian would object to this truth. Some of the Early Church Fathers also believed in this.

IRENAEUS IN AGAINST HERESIES: And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”

CYPRIAN IN TREATISES OF CYPRIAN: “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

EPHRAIM IN ON THE LAST TIMES: Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

I see you have never read Irenaeus nor Cyprian. You have just found the quotes from a pro-pre-tribber website.

Sad and poor research. Truth is, nobody even thought about a pre-trib rapture, cause there is not one verse that teaches it. Its amazing how popular a doctrine with 0 verses is. GIVE ME the one Scripture that says resurrection happens BEFORE the last day (John 6:40) Cause thats what rapture is (dead in Christ rise first)

Irenaeus was post-trib..... he lined out the entire thing, he said antichrist will persecute guess who? CHURCH........ he said church will be resurrected......... after the 3.5......... oops.

Well now I wont engage with you anymore. This is just deception at this point, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt, that you just did not know, and have not read Irenaeus.

And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

But he [John] indicates the number of the name now [the mark of the Beast], that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is [Against Heresies 5.30.4].

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth [Against Heresies 5.35.1]

Begs the question: Why was he writing about mark of the beast, knowing how to avoid him? "put the church to flight" -> after destroyed by the coming of the Lord.

PSST... Irenaus probably got that from 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 which COMPLETELY destroys your pre-trib system, it says WHEN believers get rest.... WHEN Jesus is revealed from heaven with fire and angels (Second coming buddy):

God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

You also said this: "If Jesus (a) comes in the air, (b) is present in the air momentarily, and (c) returns to Heaven immediately with all the saints, that is NOT the return of Christ to earth -- the Second Coming -- which is so totally different that there is no comparison. "

WHere did you get the idea Jesus RETURNS to heaven? NO WHERE it says that in 1 thess 4:17 it mentions coming of the Lord, we go to MEET THE LORD in the air, escort the KING down as was the custom in ancient days. Lord comes back with all His saints. (not some as the pre-trib rapture teaches, since some are 'tribulation saints' in their flesh bodies and missed the fake rapture)

with that being said. This isnt going anywhere, so I will stop engaging. Pre-trib rapture already refuted so thoroughly if you cant see it o well.

 

[JLB]

True. But "THE Antichrist" is the ultimate antichrist, and even the Reformers could see that (as was noted earlier). Unfortunately they applied that title mistakenly to the pope (can't blame them since the RCC is false Christianity and practically anti-Christian).

Are you not aware that Jews are scattered throughout the former/revived Roman Empire? And the primary reasons he must be a Jew are (1) Orthodox Jews will only accept a Jewish Messiah (possibly claiming to have descended from David and from the tribe of Judah), not a Gentile pretender and (2) the Antichrist must have complete access to the future Jewish temple, where he will sit "as God" claiming that he is God, and commanding the whole world to worship him.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess 2:3,4)

Can you explain how the resurrection and rapture can occur at His coming, but this is not the second coming?


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection of the dead in Christ comes before the rapture.


The resurrection of the dead in Christ, occurs at His coming.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The key is right here (1 Cor 15:52): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. In modern terminology we would say "a fraction of a second" or "in a nanosecond". So this is the Resurrection/Rapture (including both the dead and living saints).

Yes The key is also 1 Corinthians 15.


However, you need to back up, and read the context, to see the resurrection, (which comes before the rapture), happens at His coming.


But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:20-24

• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

• Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

1. The resurrection occurs at His coming
2. The Rapture occurs at His coming
3. The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist occurs at His coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8





JLB

 

[Nathan12]

However, you need to back up, and read the context, to see the resurrection, (which comes before the rapture), happens at His coming.

"At his coming" needs to be taken in context. Parousia is used for BOTH the Rapture and the Second Coming. At His coming (1) for the saints to complete their salvation and (2) with the saints to judge the earth. Two separate events for different purposes.

 

[Nathan12]

The resurrection of the dead in Christ comes before the rapture.

Yes. But it is all one event as noted in 1 Cor 15:52. And "in the twinkling of an eye". As soon as the resurrection is completed, the Rapture is also completed immediately after.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes. But it is all one event as noted in 1 Cor 15:52. And "in the twinkling of an eye". As soon as the resurrection is completed, the Rapture is also completed immediately after.

One resurrection, two different judgments as the sheep are separated from the goats. All happens in a twinkling of an eye.....................on the last day when Christ returns. At that time we are gathered up to Him in the air while He destroys the beast and false prophet, binding Satan for a time and releasing him to fight against the saints, but is cast into the lake of fire. Great White throne judgment comes, heaven and earth renewed and the New Jerusalem is ushered down where we are forever with the Lord.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the judgement seat of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[for_his_glory]

If Jesus (a) comes in the air, (b) is present in the air momentarily, and (c) returns to Heaven immediately with all the saints, that is NOT the return of Christ to earth -- the Second Coming -- which is so totally different that there is no comparison.

The book of Enoch is NOT a part of Scripture -- the Bible canon. It is interesting, but it has always been excluded from the Hebrew canon. It is a pseudepigraphical book (written by someone claiming to be Enoch, and writing long after Enoch).

So let's stick to the Bible ( as you said you do) and agree that if God took him, and if God is in Heaven, then Enoch is also in Heaven. This is not rocket science. Therefore, if Enoch and Elijah were in Heaven when Christ said what He said in John 3:13, obviously He did not say what you think He said.

Christ was speaking about His absolute uniqueness as compared to any other man. He is the only one who descended from Heaven, He is the only one who would ascend to Heaven after a miraculous resurrection, and He is the only one who was present on earth and in Heaven at one and the same time. That is exactly what John 3:13 says.

Please show me the scripture where it explicitly is written Jesus comes down to the air and then returns to heaven immediately with all the saints.

There are many writings from the Prophets that were not added to the Canon, but it doesn't mean they are not important for our learning. The writings of Enoch were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and since Enoch is mentioned in scripture I find his writings just as important. There is a difference between being translated and actually physically taken up to heaven. Even we will be changed as flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

The book of Enoch was considered scripture, but was not added to the Canon because the Jews rejected it because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ. Here is a list of 14 other books that were the last books of the OT found in the 1611 KJV when it was translated from Latin to English. In 1684 all these books were removed by the Vatican from all versions of the Bible except for the 1611 KJV.

. 1 Esdras
. 2 Esdras
. Tobit
. Judith
. The rest of Esther
. The Wisdom of Solomon
. Ecclesiasticus
. Baruch with the epistle of Jeremiah
. The Songs of the 3 Holy Children
. The story of Susana
. bel and the dragon
. The prayer of Manasses
. 1 Maccabees
. 2 Maccabees

 

[for_his_glory]

The key is right here (1 Cor 15:52): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. In modern terminology we would say "a fraction of a second" or "in a nanosecond". So this is the Resurrection/Rapture (including both the dead and living saints).

Now contrast this with the Second Coming (Rev 19), which cannot possibly be in seconds, or even minutes. And we should note that the saints -- clothed in fine linen, white and clean -- accompany Christ descending, not ascending.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

You still have Jesus coming twice and just can not see it no matter how many times you post 1 Corinthians 15:52. There are only seven trumpets. The last trump is the seventh. In the twinkling of an eye is a metaphor for how quick the events will take place when Christ returns in the air with His army of angels He sends out to do the gathering of the saints as we are caught up to meet Him in the air.

Nut shelling here. Within that twinkling of God's timing Jesus returns, saints are gathered, beast and false prophet destroyed, Satan bound and then released to try and kill the saints who are already within the metaphoric camp of Christ, Satan then cast into the lake of fire, judgment comes for all, earth and heaven renewed and the New Jerusalem ushered down as we are with he Lord forever.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG. In my previous post I suggested that the Matthew 24:19 reference describes a different event from what Rev 19:11-14 describes, but because they both deal with a description of Jesus come to the earth from Heaven it is easy to confuse them.

I agree that Matthew 24:29 is referring to the 2nd coming of Christ where he returns to the earth to collect his followers and that this happens at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Rev 11:15 also describes this happening. The 7th trumpet (of the GT) sounds and "the kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord". Notice in verse 18 "The nations were angry and your wrath has come."

This coincides with the Revelation 19 reference where the description is that of a Heavenly perspective. The Bride of Christ is already there with him (Rev 19:7), having just been raptured up to New Jerusalem at his second coming just after the 7th trumpet of the GT. They've been given their shining white robes, which are the works of the saints (not angels or whatever) Rev 19:8 and they are celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb (just like Jesus described in a few of his parables) Rev 19:9.

Then, (after the marriage supper) they all gather together on white horses behind Jesus who leads them down to a great battle. The last bowl of wrath is described as the battle of Armageddon.

Because this description involves Jesus coming down from a Heavenly perspective it is easy to confuse it with the 2nd coming of Christ where he (also) comes from a Heavenly perspective to gather his elect. They sound similar but they are two separate events, one which happens after the other.



The last bowl of wrath is the battle of Armageddon (the 6th being where the armies of the earth are gathered together to fight that battle). It makes no sense to say the saints are there on the Earth as part of that battle when Revelation 19 shows them from a Heavenly perspective riding out with him to that battle.

What does make sense is a distinction between tribulation and wrath (which is why those two are separated into trumpets and vials). They sound similar but are fundamentally different in meaning.

The trumpets of the tribulation will necessarily affect the saints. Yes, there will be some protection there (the 144k being spared from the 5th trumpet is an example) but there is nothing to suggest that protection will be absolute. Millions of saints will die during the GT, but they will be doing so as a final witness to the world.

Wrath is specifically directed toward God's enemies and will be poured on the earth after the saints have been safely removed when Jesus returns at the last trumpet.

Matthew 24:29 and Rev 19:11-14 are both the same event as in Matthew 24 you have to start with vs. 15 as the abomination of desolation that will stand in the Holy place is that of the events of Rev 13 that will last for 3 1/2 years according to Daniel Chapter 7-9.

Now we come to Rev 19:1-10 that is about the marriage supper of the Lamb. Starting at vs. 1-6 there is worshipping and rejoicing in heaven and on earth that comes after mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev 17, 18. From vs. 7-10 now the time is ready for the marriage supper as the saints have made themselves ready, but not yet caught up to meet Christ in the air until we read in vs. 11-14 where Christ returns in the air with His army of angels He sends out to gather those alive at His coming and those asleep in their graves, Matthew 24:29-31, John 5:28, 29; John 6:40; Rev 1:7.

The only ones on white horses, which I believe is symbolic of God's righteousness and the brightness of His coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, are Christ and His army of angels. Think about it, when have any of the saints gone to war for the sake of Christ.

Gog, Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9 after the 1000 years when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit and brings his army of demons to surround the camp of the saints and the Holy City Jerusalem, but God sends fire down from heaven to devour all of them and Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
(1000 years is a figurative number, not a literal number. It is figurative like the numbering in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.)

Zechariah 14:1, 2; Luke 21:20 and Rev 16:16 is the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return, Rev 19:19. Christ will destroy the beast and the false prophet casting them into the lake of fire. Rev 19:17-19 the remnant being all the world leaders and those who took the mark of the beast from every nation and as they are the armies that come to fight against Christ in Jerusalem when He returns, but will also be destroyed by the words that proceed out of the mouth of Christ.

Except those days be shortened, Matthew 24:22. These days are shortened for a time that only God holds back or extends to allow His purpose for the last one to repent and turn back to Him before Christ returns, Rev 19, as God alone knows their name. Only God can shorten days like He did with Hezekiah as He caused the sundial to go backwards ten degrees, which was possibly five hours and again in Joshua 10:12-14 God extended the daylight for Joshua to defeat the Amorites.

Christ returns on the last day at the seventh trumpet and on that day His Bride being the collective body of believers through faith in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption will be caught up to Him. Both asleep in their grave and those who are alive at His coming will then be kept safe on that day while Christ fights the final battle casting the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and slaying all those nations (people) who come out to fight against Him.

(John 5:25-30; 6:40; Ephesians 1:3-14;1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19; Zechariah 14:1-6; Luke 21:20-22)

 

[Nathan12]

There are only seven trumpets. The last trump is the seventh.

Well you still IMAGINE that Jesus is coming twice, even after His coming for the Rapture is momentary. You are welcome to your misapprehension. As to the seven trumpet judgments THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RAPTURE. So there you go. You are muddling wrath with salvation, another misapprehension.

the twinkling of an eye is a metaphor

Why would it be a metaphor when that is a plain statement of fact. Another misapprehension? The Resurrection/ Rapture is SUPERNATURAL.

Nut shelling here. Within that twinkling of God's timing Jesus returns, saints are gathered, beast and false prophet destroyed, Satan bound and then released to try and kill the saints who are already within the metaphoric camp of Christ, Satan then cast into the lake of fire, judgment comes for all, earth and heaven renewed and the New Jerusalem ushered down as we are with he Lord forever.

Now this is plainly delusional, and Scripture does not allow such faulty interpretations. Looks like you will hang on to your faulty ideas by making actual events "metaphorical". Next salvation will be called metaphorical, and everything else in the Bible will mean something else altogether. As though God wants to deliberately mislead us.

 

[JLB]

Yes. But it is all one event as noted in 1 Cor 15:52. And "in the twinkling of an eye". As soon as the resurrection is completed, the Rapture is also completed immediately after.

Amen.

So the resurrection and rapture are inseparable, as they both occur at His coming.


In addition the wicked are destroyed as well at His coming, for it is the Day of the Lord, which comes as a thief in the night for them.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:17-5:4


Once we are gathered together high above the earth, with the Lord, he pours out His wrath upon the wicked.



And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

• destroy with the brightness of His coming

The antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His coming, once we are with Him in the clouds in the air above the earth.




JLB

 

[Nathan12]

In addition the wicked are destroyed as well at His coming, for it is the Day of the Lord, which comes as a thief in the night for them.

Again you wish to take different events at different times and make them appear as one event. But that is simply impossible. The Day of Christ is for the Rapture (SALVATION) and the Day of the Lord (LORD) is for wrath (DAMNATION).

And you wish to suggest that God does not distinguish between salvation and damnation, and just muddles up everything. But God is not the Author of Confusion, and all things happen in a proper, logical, spiritual, divine sequence.

Paul speaks about "the day of Christ" when he is referring to the Rapture. But the Day of the Lord corresponds to the Great Tribulation, which is a period of time, not one day.