The Two Natures That Co-Exist In A Spirit-Filled Christian

[Free]

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4).

Does this verse say about the habitual sin or a single act of sin?

It appears to be talking about habitual sin. Greek grammar matters.

 

[JLB]

Your statement "When you study the word committeth, you find it refers to a continual sinning or practicing of sin" is opposite from the witnesses you presented. The study of 1 John clearly shows that "commiteth" is G4160 and means "to do", whereas G4238 means "habitual". I John uses G4160 and not G4238, there are two different words. Please compare:

Whosoever committeth [G4160] sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4).

Transgression of the law is sinning even once, not habitually.

I posted the Strongs and showed the synonym which contains practice.

Look at the little box in the bottom corner.

Also the context of the previous verse 7 uses the word practice.

I will quote the Amplified -


Little children (believers, dear ones), do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who practices righteousness [the one who strives to live a consistently honorable life—in private as well as in public—and to conform to God's precepts] is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one who practices sin [separating himself from God, and offending Him by acts of disobedience, indifference, or rebellion] is of the devil [and takes his inner character and moral values from him, not God]; for the devil has sinned and violated God's law from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:7-8 AMP

 

[JLB]

To find the real meaning of John's words in 1 John, we need to look beyond the flesh to the new creature God creates when He gives birth to us form out of His Spirit.

Agreed.

The new lives we have in Christ is what John was talking about when he said...

The new lives we live in Christ must be lived with a mortal body that contains sin.

Paul exhorts us as Christians to cultivate a lifestyle of walking according to the Spirit, in which we are to be led by the Spirit.

But I say, walk habitually in the [Holy] Spirit [seek Him and be responsive to His guidance], and then you will certainly not carry out the desire of the sinful nature [which responds impulsively without regard for God and His precepts]. For the sinful nature has its desire which is opposed to the Spirit, and the [desire of the] Spirit opposes the sinful nature; for these [two, the sinful nature and the Spirit] are in direct opposition to each other [continually in conflict], so that you [as believers] do not [always] do whatever [good things] you want to do. Galatians 5:16-17


To the degree we have matured and have Christ formed in us, to that degree we will embrace and walk-in the crucified lifestyle in which we “sow” to the Spirit… eventually walking as He walked.


Therefore if you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, sharing in His resurrection from the dead], keep seeking the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind and keep focused habitually on the things above [the heavenly things], not on things that are on the earth [which have only temporal value]. For you died [to this world], and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
So put to death and deprive of power the evil longings of your earthly body [with its sensual, self-centered instincts] immorality, impurity, sinful passion, evil desire, and greed, which is [a kind of] idolatry [because it replaces your devotion to God]. Because of these [sinful] things the [divine] wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience [those who fail to listen and who routinely and obstinately disregard God's precepts], and in these [sinful things] you also once walked, when you were habitually living in them [without the knowledge of Christ]. But now rid yourselves [completely] of all these things: anger, rage, malice, slander, and obscene (abusive, filthy, vulgar) language from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, for you have stripped off the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new [spiritual] self who is being continually renewed in true knowledge in the image of Him who created the new self— Colossians 3:1-10

 

[live2blieve]

It appears to be talking about habitual sin. Greek grammar matters.

Adam transgressed the law ("don't eat") and sinned. It was a single action, not a habitual sin.

 

[Free]

Adam transgressed the law ("don't eat") and sinned. It was a single action, not a habitual sin.

Of course, but what does that have to with what John states? You are making a false dichotomy out of these two things: that there are single sinful acts and that sin can, and often is, habitual or a pattern that characterizes how most people live.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

This is what Yahshua the Messiah said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (John 8:34). Therefore, if a person sins, he or she is a slave to sin and Satan. John says the same, "He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8).


In Romans chapter 7, Paul described himself BEFORE the Holy Spirit came, for contrast. And in chapter 8 he shows the change the Holy Spirit made. Please see for yourself:

What a poor man I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
I thank my God by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore the same I with my mind serve the law of God, but with my flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:24,25)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who in Christ Jesus, who do not live according to the flesh, but according to the spirit,
because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1,2)

Thanks be to God that you, who were formerly slaves to sin, have have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which you were entrusted.
But then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:17,18).

Notice that Paul speaks of himself in chapter 7 as a captive of sin, and in chapters 6 and 8 as having been delivered from the captivity of sin.


The Lord's Prayer was given to the disciples under the Old Covenant, not to us under the New Covenant. Notice that then forgiveness was conditional: first you have to forgive others, and only then God will forgive you (Matthew 6:14,16). Under the New Covenant forgiveness is not by our works to forgive others, but by Grace: first God forgives us and then gives us the ability to forgive others:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you (Ephesians 4:32). See also Collosians 3:12,13.

Do you believe that Jesus came to make a new covenant with his people, live2blieve? If not, then notice the quote from him in the upper room,

Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

And please don't quote Matthew's version, which leaves out the word "new," because Matthew emphasizes the covenant's continuity with the old one for Jewish Christians, whereas Luke stresses its newness for Gentile Christians. Thus, the covenant has both aspects of continuity and discontinuity, and the Sermon on the Mount does too.

As a result, the Lord's Prayer is for us Christians, just as Jesus' equation of murder with anger and murder with lust with adultery are.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I can never claim to be sinless in my daily life when Paul says that he isn't perfect in Philippians 3:

Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
Php 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Php 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul's and our goal to run life's race is resurrection perfection (verse 11) that we must strive in the power of Jesus' resurrection to get closer to; but if Paul can't make such a claim, I can't either. Besides, if we do, we will probably be guilty of the sin of pride!

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I posted the Strongs and showed the synonym which contains practice.

Look at the little box in the bottom corner.

Also the context of the previous verse 7 uses the word practice.

I will quote the Amplified -

Little children (believers, dear ones), do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who practices righteousness [the one who strives to live a consistently honorable life—in private as well as in public—and to conform to God's precepts] is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one who practices sin [separating himself from God, and offending Him by acts of disobedience, indifference, or rebellion] is of the devil [and takes his inner character and moral values from him, not God]; for the devil has sinned and violated God's law from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:7-8 AMP

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.​

​

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.​

​

[The New King James Version (1 Jn 3:4–9). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

This is a difficult passage to process. If we make sinning or not sinning the measure of who is a Christian, as the passage suggests, we only have a handful of ways to include ourselves in the "Christian" category.

One option is to take the passage at face value and claim that we do not commit any sins. Though this option's fatal flaw is that our own sins and sinfulness is obvious to each one of us, some people do claim they have no sin and prove that they have choosen to deceive themselves (1 Jn 1:8).

Another option is to dig into the passage and try to understand how our sin and sinfulness does not disqualify us from being in the "Christian" category. One way to do that is to differentiate between our sins and sinfulness and those of the lost by saying that lost people practice sin, habitually sin, have a lifestyle of sin, or live in unrepentant sin. Certainly, there is some support for this point of view given the curious translations of the word "ποιέω" ("to do") as "practice". But this point of view yields some untennable positions, like saying that a person who only commits sins occasionally and repents whenever he sins is righteous just as Jesus is righteous (vs 7), or like saying that a person who is born of God can only sin a little because His seed remains in him (vs 9).

The only other option I know of (and the one to which I ascribe) is to understand the passage as contrasting the flesh with the spirit of a person who has been made a new creature through God giving birth to him. The flesh is of the devil, can't cease from sin, and has no righteousness. But the new creation is of God, can't be corrupted by sin, and is righteous just as He is righteous. This is how we differentiate between who we are in Adam and who we are in Christ -- when we see Him in us, see that we are joined to Him, and see that we are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17).

 

[JLB]

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.​

​

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.​

​

[The New King James Version (1 Jn 3:4–9). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

This is a difficult passage to process. If we make sinning or not sinning the measure of who is a Christian, as the passage suggests, we only have a handful of ways to include ourselves in the "Christian" category.

One option is to take the passage at face value and claim that we do not commit any sins. Though this option's fatal flaw is that our own sins and sinfulness is obvious to each one of us, some people do claim they have no sin and prove that they have choosen to deceive themselves (1 Jn 1:8).

Another option is to dig into the passage and try to understand how our sin and sinfulness does not disqualify us from being in the "Christian" category. One way to do that is to differentiate between our sins and sinfulness and those of the lost by saying that lost people practice sin, habitually sin, have a lifestyle of sin, or live in unrepentant sin. Certainly, there is some support for this point of view given the curious translations of the word "ποιέω" ("to do") as "practice". But this point of view yields some untennable positions, like saying that a person who only commits sins occasionally and repents whenever he sins is righteous just as Jesus is righteous (vs 7), or like saying that a person who is born of God can only sin a little because His seed remains in him (vs 9).

The only other option I know of (and the one to which I ascribe) is to understand the passage as contrasting the flesh with the spirit of a person who has been made a new creature through God giving birth to him. The flesh is of the devil, can't cease from sin, and has no righteousness. But the new creation is of God, can't be corrupted by sin, and is righteous just as He is righteous. This is how we differentiate between who we are in Adam and who we are in Christ -- when we see Him in us, see that we are joined to Him, and see that we are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17).

A doctor is someone who practices medicine as a lifestyle.

If I put a bandaid on someone, does that mean I practice medicine?

Likewise a sinner is someone who practices sinning as a lifestyle.


Let’s look back at 1 John 1 -

Key verse:

• But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Notice that those who walk in the light, have need of the blood of Jesus to cleanse them from sin.


If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:6-9

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.​

​

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.​

​

[The New King James Version (1 Jn 3:4–9). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

This is a difficult passage to process. If we make sinning or not sinning the measure of who is a Christian, as the passage suggests, we only have a handful of ways to include ourselves in the "Christian" category.

One option is to take the passage at face value and claim that we do not commit any sins. Though this option's fatal flaw is that our own sins and sinfulness is obvious to each one of us, some people do claim they have no sin and prove that they have choosen to deceive themselves (1 Jn 1:8).

Another option is to dig into the passage and try to understand how our sin and sinfulness does not disqualify us from being in the "Christian" category. One way to do that is to differentiate between our sins and sinfulness and those of the lost by saying that lost people practice sin, habitually sin, have a lifestyle of sin, or live in unrepentant sin. Certainly, there is some support for this point of view given the curious translations of the word "ποιέω" ("to do") as "practice". But this point of view yields some untennable positions, like saying that a person who only commits sins occasionally and repents whenever he sins is righteous just as Jesus is righteous (vs 7), or like saying that a person who is born of God can only sin a little because His seed remains in him (vs 9).

The only other option I know of (and the one to which I ascribe) is to understand the passage as contrasting the flesh with the spirit of a person who has been made a new creature through God giving birth to him. The flesh is of the devil, can't cease from sin, and has no righteousness. But the new creation is of God, can't be corrupted by sin, and is righteous just as He is righteous. This is how we differentiate between who we are in Adam and who we are in Christ -- when we see Him in us, see that we are joined to Him, and see that we are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17).

Another way to look at the Bible's teachings is to define what it means by "sin." It is not just an action, though it includes actions, as its results. I see the Bible's meaning as being more self-centeredness. That is, we have two natures as true believers, a God-centered one and a self-centered one. After God declares us "not guilty" through Jesus' death and gives us the new nature through his resurrection, we still have to overcome the old, self-centeredness with the new God-centeredness. As Paul says, thanks be to God,

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

We must claim in persistent prayer the results of Jesus' death and resurrection to replace the old nature with the new one.

It's like Paul's "thorn in the flesh." God left it in Paul, whatever it is, to humble and grow his spiritual life from pride to humility:

2Co 12:7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations [his vision], a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.
2Co 12:8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.
2Co 12:9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Like Paul's "thorn," God has also left our sinful natures in us to give us a sense of our humility before the perfect God until he raises us from the dead in our perfect bodies.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

A doctor is someone who practices medicine as a lifestyle.

If I put a bandaid on someone, does that mean I practice medicine?

Likewise a sinner is someone who practices sinning as a lifestyle.

Let’s look back at 1 John 1 -

Key verse:

• But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Notice that those who walk in the light, have need of the blood of Jesus to cleanse them from sin.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:6-9

OK, maybe you can explain a conundrum I have with the "habitual sin" POV.

A famous Texas preacher declared in a sermon a couple years ago that he had gone as much as 3 days in a row without committing a single sin. I didn't think that was possible and concluded he wasn't counting the sinfulness of his own flesh against himself.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume he was correct. And let us further assume that a theoretical person could live an adult life of 75 years only sinning one time every three days. That is 122 discrete sins every year, 3044 discrete sins every 25 years, and 9131 discrete sins over a 75 year lifetime. Obviously, many of these discrete sins would likely fall in the same category.

How is it possible to describe this hypothetical person as habitually practicing righteousness or as having a lifestyle of righteousness? Answer: The concept of habitual righteousness is a relativistic term. The limits are not precicely defined, and as a result, anyone can be considered to be practicing righteousness as long as there are a sufficient number of people that they can point to that are way more sinful than themselves.

 

[live2blieve]

Do you believe that Jesus came to make a new covenant with his people, live2blieve? If not, then notice the quote from him in the upper room,

Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

And please don't quote Matthew's version, which leaves out the word "new," because Matthew emphasizes the covenant's continuity with the old one for Jewish Christians, whereas Luke stresses its newness for Gentile Christians. Thus, the covenant has both aspects of continuity and discontinuity, and the Sermon on the Mount does too.

As a result, the Lord's Prayer is for us Christians, just as Jesus' equation of murder with anger and murder with lust with adultery are.

When do you think the New Covenant came into effect?

 

[Hopeful 2]

A doctor is someone who practices medicine as a lifestyle.

What will end that "practice" ?
It will cease when he quits doctoring.
The same logic applies to sinners.
Sinners practice sin, until they quit sinning.
That is what repentance from sin accomplishes.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Free]

What will end that "practice" ?
It will cease when he quits doctoring.
The same logic applies to sinners.
Sinners practice sin, until they quit sinning.
That is what repentance from sin accomplishes.
Thanks be to God !

No, it's what the return of Christ will accomplish.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, it's what the return of Christ will accomplish.

It will be too late by then for he servants of sin to repent of sin, and be washed of them by the blood of Christ.
If one is still dead in sin on the day of Christ's return, they will be raised to eternal punishment.
It is written..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25:45-46)

 

[JLB]

What will end that "practice" ?
It will cease when he quits doctoring.
The same logic applies to sinners.
Sinners practice sin, until they quit sinning.
That is what repentance from sin accomplishes.
Thanks be to God !

When Christians confess their sins they are forgiven and cleansed.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us…

Who does “us”, “our” and “we” refer to?

Those who are not saved or to Christian’s?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

OK, maybe you can explain a conundrum I have with the "habitual sin" POV.

A famous Texas preacher declared in a sermon a couple years ago that he had gone as much as 3 days in a row without committing a single sin. I didn't think that was possible and concluded he wasn't counting the sinfulness of his own flesh against himself.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume he was correct. And let us further assume that a theoretical person could live an adult life of 75 years only sinning one time every three days. That is 122 discrete sins every year, 3044 discrete sins every 25 years, and 9131 discrete sins over a 75 year lifetime. Obviously, many of these discrete sins would likely fall in the same category.

How is it possible to describe this hypothetical person as habitually practicing righteousness or as having a lifestyle of righteousness? Answer: The concept of habitual righteousness is a relativistic term. The limits are not precicely defined, and as a result, anyone can be considered to be practicing righteousness as long as there are a sufficient number of people that they can point to that are way more sinful than themselves.

NewLifeInChrist, is that Texas preacher, by declaring that he had gone that long, committing the sin of pride? I don't know. Furthermore, how do you and he define "sin," as an action, a feeling, a motive, or a thought?

Sin is self-centeredness that does show up in our outward life sometimes but is always in our sinful natures and needs to be rooted out. I have experienced some progress in God rooting them out; but every time he does it with one, he uncovers another one over which I claim Jesus' victory. Hey, I'm 82 years old, and they keep being uncovered.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

NewLifeInChrist, is that Texas preacher, by declaring that he had gone that long, committing the sin of pride? I don't know. Furthermore, how do you and he define "sin," as an action, a feeling, a motive, or a thought?

Sin is self-centeredness that does show up in our outward life sometimes but is always in our sinful natures and needs to be rooted out. I have experienced some progress in God rooting them out; but every time he does it with one, he uncovers another one over which I claim Jesus' victory. Hey, I'm 82 years old, and they keep being uncovered.

The Texas preacher's declaration did not appear to me to be prideful. It was in a sermon he was giving to introduce his newfound appreciation of walking in the Spirit. I think his point was that he had walked in the Spirit for 3 days straight and therefore had avoided fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. So it didn't sound prideful to me, but it did seem unrealistic. But I will not pass judgement on that one way or the other and will leave it up to God.

I believe you are right that our sins originate in the sinful nature. One thing Jesus said in this regard stands out to me... "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Mt 15:19–20). Our sinful natures defile us.

Thankfully, when God saves us, He creates a new man that is truly righteous and holy (Eph 4:24), joins us to the Lord, and makes us one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). We are no longer in the flesh (Ro 8:9), but our lives are hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3).

And you are right that our close proximity to the flesh is distasteful and seems to never run out of evil. I am sure you agree with me that it is a blessing to know that we will soon be completely free of it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

When Christians confess their sins they are forgiven and cleansed.

Then, they can say they have no sin !

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9

Good thing we can quit walking in darkness, and start walking in the light, after that confession and cleansing.

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us…

Who does “us”, “our” and “we” refer to?

It refers to those being instructed to confess and be cleansed.

Those who are not saved or to Christian’s?

It is the unconverted, that still walk in darkness-sin; so not Christians.
Christians walk in the light-God, in whom is no sin.