The Two Natures That Co-Exist In A Spirit-Filled Christian

[Rodger]

No, the folks reborn of God's seed do not commit sin.
His seed cannot bring forth liars, adulterers, or thieves. (1 John 3:9)

I find teachings enabling a true servitude to God, liberating.

So true, but it only applies to those who still walk in and after the flesh, instead of in and after the Spirit.
Rebirth gives us a new nature.
One that reigns in those whose old self/nature was crucified with Christ.

Can you tell me if Spurgeon ever actually repented of sin?
Or did he die in his disobedience ?
He is speaking from the perspective of still being in the flesh.
A circumstance those in Christ have forsaken.

The narrative of his life prior to his conversion, (Rom 7:5), would surely include those words.

The narrative of Paul's pre-conversion life would surely include that message.
Thankfully, he wrote Romans 8:2, which magnifies the difference his pre-conversion life with where he was when he wrote Romans.
Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
He had been freed from what you call..."his sinful nature/slave to the law of sin" by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".
You can be freed too.

Thankfully, rebirth from God's seed alleviates the slavery you write of.

Nobody in the OT.
But God has cleansed the heart of all that submit to Him; by the blood of Christ Jesus. (Acts 2:38)

OT writings that apply to those still living an OT lifestyle.
There are righteous men on earth since we have been enabled to walk "in Christ".
It is those outside of Christ that walk in the flesh and not in the Spirit.

I disagree.

Did they do that, or did they opt to die in their sins ?
I hope they obeyed a Godly exhortation.

Thank God for an apostle's admonissions and guidance !
If we walk in the Spirit, we won't be able to do do the things of the flesh !

Perfectly apt, as it addresses those who walk in darkness.
As do verses 6 and 10.
If we walk in the light, though, all or past sins can be washed away buy the blood of Christ. (1 John 1:7)
So those walking in the light/God, can say they have no sin !

Your rebirth is different from the one I believe in.

Chafer is right.
Thank God for making it possible to have but one "nature", after the old one was is destroyed and a new creature is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ! (Rom 6:4,6)
Thank God !

Speaking only for myself......when you post such long posts with one comment or question after another, I for one can not respond to it.

If you want to have a conversation I would encourage you to ask or post ONE comment at a time as I just can not answer you in the way you are posting.

Now, allow me to say to you that in my 50 years of service to God, I have run across several individuals who have either claimed sinlessness, or strongly argued that sinlessness also known as sinless perfection and entire sanctification which is what you are trying to do here, is achievable.

Even without studying what the Bible says about the possibility of sinlessness, simple observation of people attempting to live the Christian life causes me to KNOW that what you are propossing is completely wrong. Observation of people who claim sinlessness absolutely reinforces my doubt which is why I asked you to allow me 5 minutes to speak with your wife.

One would think that if sinlessness is possible, the Bible would give us an example of someone who achieved it.

And then there are verses such as the following:

“Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20).

“…and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matthew 6:12).

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

But of course, there is a difference between what is supposed to be our goal and what the reality of our existence tells us. Of course, sinlessness is supposed to be our goal. In Matthew 5:48 Jesus says, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Sinless perfection is the goal we should all be striving towards......and we will achieve that when we are Raptured or die in Christ.

No matter how many Scriptures you post without your correct understanding, the Bible does not teach that sinlessness is possible in this boy we have with the ever present Sin Nature in it.

The people in my life whom I would describe as the most spiritually mature would never claim sinlessness. In fact, part of true spiritual maturity is being cognizant of the subtle sins in your life. True progress in the Christian life is honestly and humbly recognizing how much further you must go.

If you think you have arrived at sinlessness, think again. Unless you have arrived in heaven at the feet of Jesus, you still have work to do.

1 John 3:2.............
“Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.”

 

[live2blieve]

John 8:31-36 says that we will no longer be SLAVES to sin and Satan when we have the new birth ("servant of sin"), not that we will no longer do or think any sins. Why do you think that Jesus tells us to pray for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer?

This is what Yahshua the Messiah said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (John 8:34). Therefore, if a person sins, he or she is a slave to sin and Satan. John says the same, "He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8).

As Paul says in Romans 7 about his own struggles against sin, he hates sin and doesn't want to do it, but he does it anyway.

In Romans chapter 7, Paul described himself BEFORE the Holy Spirit came, for contrast. And in chapter 8 he shows the change the Holy Spirit made. Please see for yourself:

What a poor man I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
I thank my God by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore the same I with my mind serve the law of God, but with my flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:24,25)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who in Christ Jesus, who do not live according to the flesh, but according to the spirit,
because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1,2)

Thanks be to God that you, who were formerly slaves to sin, have have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which you were entrusted.
But then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:17,18).

Notice that Paul speaks of himself in chapter 7 as a captive of sin, and in chapters 6 and 8 as having been delivered from the captivity of sin.

Why do you think that Jesus tells us to pray for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer?

The Lord's Prayer was given to the disciples under the Old Covenant, not to us under the New Covenant. Notice that then forgiveness was conditional: first you have to forgive others, and only then God will forgive you (Matthew 6:14,16). Under the New Covenant forgiveness is not by our works to forgive others, but by Grace: first God forgives us and then gives us the ability to forgive others:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you (Ephesians 4:32). See also Collosians 3:12,13.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Speaking only for myself......when you post such long posts with one comment or question after another, I for one can not respond to it.

If you want to have a conversation I would encourage you to ask or post ONE comment at a time as I just can not answer you in the way you are posting.

Now, allow me to say to you that in my 50 years of service to God, I have run across several individuals who have either claimed sinlessness, or strongly argued that sinlessness also known as sinless perfection and entire sanctification which is what you are trying to do here, is achievable.

Even without studying what the Bible says about the possibility of sinlessness, simple observation of people attempting to live the Christian life causes me to KNOW that what you are propossing is completely wrong. Observation of people who claim sinlessness absolutely reinforces my doubt which is why I asked you to allow me 5 minutes to speak with your wife.

One would think that if sinlessness is possible, the Bible would give us an example of someone who achieved it.

And then there are verses such as the following:

“Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20).

“…and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matthew 6:12).

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

But of course, there is a difference between what is supposed to be our goal and what the reality of our existence tells us. Of course, sinlessness is supposed to be our goal. In Matthew 5:48 Jesus says, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Sinless perfection is the goal we should all be striving towards......and we will achieve that when we are Raptured or die in Christ.

No matter how many Scriptures you post without your correct understanding, the Bible does not teach that sinlessness is possible in this boy we have with the ever present Sin Nature in it.

The people in my life whom I would describe as the most spiritually mature would never claim sinlessness. In fact, part of true spiritual maturity is being cognizant of the subtle sins in your life. True progress in the Christian life is honestly and humbly recognizing how much further you must go.

If you think you have arrived at sinlessness, think again. Unless you have arrived in heaven at the feet of Jesus, you still have work to do.

1 John 3:2.............
“Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.”

Here are some posts to show you Jesus', Paul's, John's, and Peter's views on perfect obedience to God...
It is written...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Jesus commanded it.
The rest attest to it.
So do I, thanks be to God.

 

[Rodger]

Here are some posts to show you Jesus', Paul's, John's, and Peter's views on perfect obedience to God...
It is written...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Jesus commanded it.
The rest attest to it.
So do I, thanks be to God.

Sorry pal.......too long to read and respond to.

I will however say to you that some people, and you, might view the command to be perfect as a proof text for sinless perfection.

However, several passages of Scripture acknowledge the ongoing struggle with sin in a Christian’s life (Ga. 5:17; Rom. 7:15-20, 1 John 1:8-10, Philippians 3:12).

In no way can Jesus’ words be used to defend the doctrine of sinless perfection, as Scripture consistently conveys a different message. We will never be perfect, in the sense of “sinless,” in this life.

This realization should frustrate any honest person, for who can achieve moral perfection? Who hasn’t experienced coveting, lust, or hatred? The idea that we can be perfect like God seems hyperbolic. Moreover, the Bible clearly states that we are not perfect. We are all sinners and have fallen short of God’s standard.

Now my friend....if as I asked you already, would like me to explain the Scriptures one by one to you I will be glad to do so.

Lets do the 1st one you posted of Matthew 5:48........
"“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Now lets take this Scripture as "literal" which you are doing.

Right here in red and white Jesus clearly teaches that the heavenly standard of righteousness is absolute. You must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Do you understand that what YOU are saying is that salvation is only offered to those who are "good enough,"?

Now because the Bible says NO-ONE is good, NO ONE is righteous because no one is ever "good enough", No ONE is saved. My dear friend, that's why God offers salvation by grace through faith plus nothing on our part.

Two things follow from Jesus' teaching in this chapter and in this final sentence.

1). Simply following the law of Moses as it was taught by Israel's religious leaders was not nearly good enough. Those who would follow Jesus' teaching, His disciples, must live out righteousness which begins with their inner lives (Matthew 5:21–22, 27–28).

That righteousness means surrendering personal rights for the good of others, have YOU done that? This extends even to the point of loving and praying for their enemies (Matthew 5:43–47).

2). It quickly becomes clear that it is absolutely impossible for sinful human beings to live up to God's standard or righteousness in our own power. That's why the Apostle Paul will famously state in his letter to the Romans, "None is righteous, no, not one" in Romans 3:10. He and Matthew and the rest of the New Testament writers all make it clear that perfect righteousness as Jesus has described it in this chapter can only be received as a gift from God through faith in Jesus by faith in Him as the payment for the worlds sin.(Romans 3:23–25).

Now, if you would like to have a correct explination of the Scripture that "you think" apply to the sinless of man, please post them one at a time and I will be blessed to give you the correct understanding.

God bless.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sorry pal.......too long to read and respond to.
I will however say to you that some people, and you, might view the command to be perfect as a proof text for sinless perfection.

I'm sorry to see you be so dismissive of the Lord Jesus Christ's command in Matt 5:48.

However, several passages of Scripture acknowledge the ongoing struggle with sin in a Christian’s life (Ga. 5:17; Rom. 7:15-20, 1 John 1:8-10, Philippians 3:12).
In no way can Jesus’ words be used to defend the doctrine of sinless perfection, as Scripture consistently conveys a different message. We will never be perfect, in the sense of “sinless,” in this life.

Weren't you crucified with Christ ?
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

This realization should frustrate any honest person, for who can achieve moral perfection? Who hasn’t experienced coveting, lust, or hatred? The idea that we can be perfect like God seems hyperbolic. Moreover, the Bible clearly states that we are not perfect. We are all sinners and have fallen short of God’s standard.

Applying the failures of the OT won't work on NT peoples and abilities.
It is written..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
Aren't you "in Him" ?

Now my friend....if as I asked you already, would like me to explain the Scriptures one by one to you I will be glad to do so.

No thanks, as I need no persuasion to return to a life of death.
In fact, I have been empowered to resist it !
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

Lets do the 1st one you posted of Matthew 5:48........
"“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Now lets take this Scripture as "literal" which you are doing.
Right here in red and white Jesus clearly teaches that the heavenly standard of righteousness is absolute. You must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Do you understand that what YOU are saying is that salvation is only offered to those who are "good enough,"?

Do you really feel that salvation will be offered to those that hate God ?
It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."
And..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Servants of sin hate God.

Now because the Bible says NO-ONE is good, NO ONE is righteous because no one is ever "good enough", No ONE is saved. My dear friend, that's why God offers salvation by grace through faith plus nothing on our part.

Jesus was good, or do you state otherwise ?
Turning from sin and being washed by the blood of Christ will result in reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost
That makes people 'good'.

Two things follow from Jesus' teaching in this chapter and in this final sentence.
1). Simply following the law of Moses as it was taught by Israel's religious leaders was not nearly good enough. Those who would follow Jesus' teaching, His disciples, must live out righteousness which begins with their inner lives (Matthew 5:21–22, 27–28).

Yep, but OT men walking in the flesh, couldn't accomplish what men walking in the Spirit can do now in the NT.
Thank God for rebirth from God's seed !

That righteousness means surrendering personal rights for the good of others, have YOU done that? This extends even to the point of loving and praying for their enemies (Matthew 5:43–47).

I have done that in the past and even now am doing it.
Tomorrow, I will be doing it some more.
I guess you don' have to do that though, as you don't believe it is possible.
So what use do you suppose you are you to God ?

2). It quickly becomes clear that it is absolutely impossible for sinful human beings to live up to God's standard or righteousness in our own power. That's why the Apostle Paul will famously state in his letter to the Romans, "None is righteous, no, not one" in Romans 3:10. He and Matthew and the rest of the New Testament writers all make it clear that perfect righteousness as Jesus has described it in this chapter can only be received as a gift from God through faith in Jesus by faith in Him as the payment for the worlds sin.(Romans 3:23–25).

Isn't it a great thing that we no longer have to be sinful humans, since we have destroyed the old man and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ? (Rom 6:4)

Now, if you would like to have a correct explination of the Scripture that "you think" apply to the sinless of man, please post them one at a time and I will be blessed to give you the correct understanding.
God bless.

I don't find defenses for sin to be correct explanations on any level.
It is written..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

 

[Rodger]

I'm sorry to see you be so dismissive of the Lord Jesus Christ's command in Matt 5:48.

Weren't you crucified with Christ ?
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

Applying the failures of the OT won't work on NT peoples and abilities.
It is written..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
Aren't you "in Him" ?

No thanks, as I need no persuasion to return to a life of death.
In fact, I have been empowered to resist it !
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

Do you really feel that salvation will be offered to those that hate God ?
It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."
And..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Servants of sin hate God.

Jesus was good, or do you state otherwise ?
Turning from sin and being washed by the blood of Christ will result in reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost
That makes people 'good'.

Yep, but OT men walking in the flesh, couldn't accomplish what men walking in the Spirit can do now in the NT.
Thank God for rebirth from God's seed !

I have done that in the past and even now am doing it.
Tomorrow, I will be doing it some more.
I guess you don' have to do that though, as you don't believe it is possible.
So what use do you suppose you are you to God ?

Isn't it a great thing that we no longer have to be sinful humans, since we have destroyed the old man and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ? (Rom 6:4)

I don't find defenses for sin to be correct explanations on any level.
It is written..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

I am so very sorry to see your inability to properly understand Matthew 5:48.

Sinlessness refers to the state of being free from sin, embodying perfect moral purity and righteousness. In Christian theology, sinlessness is an attribute ascribed primarily to God and, in the New Testament, to Jesus Christ.

As Christians, we will sin - less," but we will never be sinless, until we get to heaven, of course.

Now I am sure that I will not be able to teach hopeful the correct doctrine on this topic, but for those reading this may I say to you that Sin is lawlessness and that is validated in 1 John 3:4.

Lawlessness then is a disregard for God and His “laws” or His Word. To abide in Jesus, who is perfect and without sin, is to not sin. God sees us, in Jesus, as completely forgiven. Our sin has been taken away and we are cleansed by His blood and that is validated in 1 John 2:1-2 and also in Romans 5:1.

It is very helpful to understand the sense of the Greek grammer in 1 John 3:6 When John writes ---
“…no one who sins….” the verb ‘sins’ is an active, present tense verb that implies “habit, continue, unbroken sequence.” In fact some Bible translations (ESV and NIV) use the phrase “keeps on sinning,” which is more accurate. The same could be said of 1 John 3:9.

So the question for you and me is not, “Do I sin?” or “How can I reach a sinless state?” -----
but rather the questions should be “How do I react when I sin?”

A Christian is one who does not live in a lifestyle of habitual sin. All of the time, we commit sin and even struggle with sin. That is a normal part of our Christian experience and human life.
Sin will always be present with us on this earth. But we do not live lives of unbroken sinful sequences.

When a healthy Christian sins, there is a feeling of disgust and disappointment. There is a quickness to repent; there is a felt need for forgiveness and that is a product of the Holy Spirit working in our consciousness.

Now, this conversation and topic, IMHO is very anti-bible IMHO. Hopeful i has said and is saying that he does not sin! However, the Bible says in 1 John 1: 8-10......
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

Now who do you think is correct here. Hopeful or God? It is a simple, easy question.

Well it depends on what you mean when you say that you are sinless.

Not practicing KNOWN Sin which is deliberate action we choose to do.....Then YES, of course it's possible then to sin-less! Every Saint is called to live a sanctified sinless life.

But the flesh is weak, and Sin dwells in it's members, Just as Paul tells us in Romans 7, so unfortunately we do sin which does in fact plague us while we are in this body of sin can happen.

God is good, we can repent and be forgiven immediately through God's grace, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Once we accept Jesus we are justified and forever saved from the penalty of sin which is death.

There is coming a day when we will be without sin. That will be the day that we see Jesus face to face; we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is: sinless!

 

[Hopeful 2]

I am so very sorry to see your inability to properly understand Matthew 5:48.

I understand it perfectly.

Sinlessness refers to the state of being free from sin, embodying perfect moral purity and righteousness. In Christian theology, sinlessness is an attribute ascribed primarily to God and, in the New Testament, to Jesus Christ.

All those "in" Christ, are perfectly obedient too.

As Christians, we will sin - less," but we will never be sinless, until we get to heaven, of course.

If we can sin less, why can't we cease from sin altogether ?
Answer: We can. (1 Peter 4:1)

Now I am sure that I will not be able to teach hopeful the correct doctrine on this topic, but for those reading this may I say to you that Sin is lawlessness and that is validated in 1 John 3:4.

Lawlessness is sinfulness.

Lawlessness then is a disregard for God and His “laws” or His Word. To abide in Jesus, who is perfect and without sin, is to not sin.

Agreed, so why do you keep flip-flopping on that point ?

God sees us, in Jesus, as completely forgiven. Our sin has been taken away and we are cleansed by His blood and that is validated in 1 John 2:1-2 and also in Romans 5:1.

Only the pure are "in" Christ, as there is no sin "in" Him.

It is very helpful to understand the sense of the Greek grammer in 1 John 3:6 When John writes ---
“…no one who sins….” the verb ‘sins’ is an active, present tense verb that implies “habit, continue, unbroken sequence.” In fact some Bible translations (ESV and NIV) use the phrase “keeps on sinning,” which is more accurate. The same could be said of 1 John 3:9.

Your understanding of Greek grammar seems to be your license to keep walking in darkness.
I adjure in Jesus' name to give that understanding back to the devil, from whence it came.

So the question for you and me is not, “Do I sin?” or “How can I reach a sinless state?” -----

If that state is reachable, why keep inferring that it is impossible ?

but rather the questions should be “How do I react when I sin?”

Why not just hold to your repentance from sin to begin with, and you won't have to react at all.

A Christian is one who does not live in a lifestyle of habitual sin. All of the time, we commit sin and even struggle with sin. That is a normal part of our Christian experience and human life.
Sin will always be present with us on this earth. But we do not live lives of unbroken sinful sequences.

Sin, in Christ, is an oxymoron.

When a healthy Christian sins, there is a feeling of disgust and disappointment. There is a quickness to repent; there is a felt need for forgiveness and that is a product of the Holy Spirit working in our consciousness.

Healthy Christians don't sin.
Pretenders do though.

Now, this conversation and topic, IMHO is very anti-bible IMHO. Hopeful i has said and is saying that he does not sin! However, the Bible says in 1 John 1: 8-10......
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrigIf he can sin less, why can't he stop sinning altogether ?hteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

1 John 1:6, 8, and 10, address those walking in darkness, which Pro 4:19 says is the way of the wicked...sin.

Now who do you think is correct here. Hopeful or God? It is a simple, easy question.

God is correct, and His Son commanded us to be as perfect as His Father is. (Matt 5:48)
So is Peter. (1 Peter 4:1)
So is John. (1 John 3:9, 5:18)
So is Paul. (Rom 6:7, 18, 22)

Well it depends on what you mean when you say that you are sinless.

Perfectly obedient to God, is what I mean.

Not practicing KNOWN Sin which is deliberate action we choose to do.....Then YES, of course it's possible then to sin-less! Every Saint is called to live a sanctified sinless life.

As all sin is known, (James 1:14-15), all men can be sinless.

But the flesh is weak, and Sin dwells in it's members, Just as Paul tells us in Romans 7, so unfortunately we do sin which does in fact plague us while we are in this body of sin can happen.

Paul's pre-conversion narrative not withstanding, he told us how to destroy that "flesh" in Rom 6.
Baptize it into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
The results are in Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

God is good, we can repent and be forgiven immediately through God's grace, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Once we accept Jesus we are justified and forever saved from the penalty of sin which is death.

You errantly keep inferring that there is sin in Christ.
Sinners are not in Christ, and in fact, are not even heard when they pray. (John 9:31)

There is coming a day when we will be without sin. That will be the day that we see Jesus face to face; we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is: sinless!

On the day of judgement, the sinners will be raised to everlasting destruction.
It will then be too late to repent and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Too late to destroy the old man, (Rom 6:6), and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
Do it now.

 

[JLB]

This is what Yahshua the Messiah said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (John 8:34). Therefore, if a person sins, he or she is a slave to sin and Satan. John says the same, "He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8).

When you study the word committeth, you find it refers to a continual sinning or practicing of sin.




Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who
sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:7-8

 

[live2blieve]

When you study the word committeth, you find it refers to a continual sinning or practicing of sin.

View attachment 21037


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who
sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:7-8

Your statement "When you study the word committeth, you find it refers to a continual sinning or practicing of sin" is opposite from the witnesses you presented. The study of 1 John clearly shows that "commiteth" is G4160 and means "to do", whereas G4238 means "habitual". I John uses G4160 and not G4238, there are two different words. Please compare:

Whosoever committeth [G4160] sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4).

Transgression of the law is sinning even once, not habitually.

 

[Rodger]

I understand it perfectly.

All those "in" Christ, are perfectly obedient too.

If we can sin less, why can't we cease from sin altogether ?
Answer: We can. (1 Peter 4:1)

Lawlessness is sinfulness.

Agreed, so why do you keep flip-flopping on that point ?

Only the pure are "in" Christ, as there is no sin "in" Him.

Your understanding of Greek grammar seems to be your license to keep walking in darkness.
I adjure in Jesus' name to give that understanding back to the devil, from whence it came.

If that state is reachable, why keep inferring that it is impossible ?

Why not just hold to your repentance from sin to begin with, and you won't have to react at all.

Sin, in Christ, is an oxymoron.

Healthy Christians don't sin.
Pretenders do though.

1 John 1:6, 8, and 10, address those walking in darkness, which Pro 4:19 says is the way of the wicked...sin.

God is correct, and His Son commanded us to be as perfect as His Father is. (Matt 5:48)
So is Peter. (1 Peter 4:1)
So is John. (1 John 3:9, 5:18)
So is Paul. (Rom 6:7, 18, 22)

Perfectly obedient to God, is what I mean.

As all sin is known, (James 1:14-15), all men can be sinless.

Paul's pre-conversion narrative not withstanding, he told us how to destroy that "flesh" in Rom 6.
Baptize it into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
The results are in Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

You errantly keep inferring that there is sin in Christ.
Sinners are not in Christ, and in fact, are not even heard when they pray. (John 9:31)

On the day of judgement, the sinners will be raised to everlasting destruction.
It will then be too late to repent and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Too late to destroy the old man, (Rom 6:6), and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
Do it now.

You said.......
"If we can sin less, why can't we cease from sin altogether ?"
Answer: We can. (1 Peter 4:1)

Obviousely you have refused to focus on one thing at a time.

The reason why we can not cease from sin altogether is because we are all sinners!
Romans 3:23..."ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

1 Peter 4:1 seems to have cause you some confusion. That is because your understanding of salvation is flawed at it foundation.
The reference to "ceasing from sin" = Peter's idea here is to be that walking a path of Christ-like suffering prevents following the opposite path, which leads through indulging in sin. It's not that Christians who suffer, or who are prepared to suffer for Christ, have become sinless and perfect. We have not. We will still make sinful choices. But we have certainly set the course of our lives away from the comfort, escape, and pleasures of sin and toward the readiness to be uncomfortable, to experience hard things, for the sake of Jesus.

Just so that everyone reading these comments understand and that there is NO confusion, allow me to say to all of you that Nowhere does the Bible say that a Christian in this life will ever be completely perfect—that is, free from all sin.
What my friend "hopeful" is saying is completely his personal "opinion" and there are NO Bible Scriptures to validate that opinion.

Now the Bible facts are that As long as we are on this earth, we will always struggle against temptation and sin. All anyone has to do is read Romans 7 and see for your self the struggle we all have with the old nature. That is one reason Jesus taught His disciples to pray (in The Lord’s Prayer), “Forgive us our sins … And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” (Luke 11:4, Matthew 6:13).

Sometimes we sin by our actions; sometimes by our motives. Often we sin not because of what we do, but because of what we fail to do. For example, we fail to love or forgive others, or in other ways fail to do things we ought to do—and that is sin.

However, there are three important truths we need to repeat over and over to ourselves.

First, just because we sin does not mean we are no longer God’s children. Our fellowship with God may be broken, but our relationship is not.

Second, when we sin God stands ready to forgive us, and we need to turn to Him immediately.
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

Third, God wants to help us (through His Holy Spirit, who lives within every believer) to avoid sin in the future. “Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature” (Galatians 5:16).

If you are born again, Thank God that you belong to Christ, and thank Him for His grace and forgiveness when you do sin—and for strength to overcome future temptation. “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One” (1 John 2:1).

Now, study, read the Word, learn Bible doctrine so that you can be approved, a workman for Christ!

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

When you study the word committeth, you find it refers to a continual sinning or practicing of sin.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who
sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:7-8

Your statement "When you study the word committeth, you find it refers to a continual sinning or practicing of sin" is opposite from the witnesses you presented. The study of 1 John clearly shows that "commiteth" is G4160 and means "to do", whereas G4238 means "habitual". I John uses G4160 and not G4238, there are two different words. Please compare:

Whosoever committeth [G4160] sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4).

Transgression of the law is sinning even once, not habitually.

The problem with the "habitual sin" argument and the "does sin" argument is that we all commit sin on a regular basis. To deny this is to deny reality.

To find the real meaning of John's words in 1 John, we need to look beyond the flesh to the new creature God creates when He gives birth to us form out of His Spirit. This new creature was "created", was "created according to God", and was "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). The new lives we have in Christ is what John was talking about when he said...

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:9)​

The new creature that was born of God cannot sin for the simple reason that he has been born of God.

 

[Rodger]

The problem with the "habitual sin" argument and the "does sin" argument is that we all commit sin on a regular basis. To deny this is to deny reality.

To find the real meaning of John's words in 1 John, we need to look beyond the flesh to the new creature God creates when He gives birth to us form out of His Spirit. This new creature was "created", was "created according to God", and was "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). The new lives we have in Christ is what John was talking about when he said...

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:9)​

The new creature that was born of God cannot sin for the simple reason that he has been born of God.

Yes, the translations and paraphrases show that there are two broad understandings of this verse: habitual and absolute.

The position that "hopeful" has been propagating has been called the new nature view. According to this view believers never sin as an expression of their born-of-God new natures. The new nature doesn’t sin even occasionally. It is sinless.

Who is correct is the real question?

The one who is wrong is the one who denies that sin is an ongoing problem. Just as we need God’s initial forgiveness to be saved, we likewise need his ongoing cleansing and forgiveness, because sin is still an ongoing problem and anyone who had read Romans 7 knows this is a fact.

You said exactly what I have been saying.........
"The problem with the "habitual sin" argument and the "does sin" argument is that we all commit sin on a regular basis. To deny this is to deny reality."

1 John 3:9 does not teach that believers achieve sinlessness in this life. Rather, it underscores that those born of God cannot continue unrepentantly in sin because “God’s seed abides” in them.

Amen!

 

[Rodger]

I understand it perfectly.

All those "in" Christ, are perfectly obedient too.

If we can sin less, why can't we cease from sin altogether ?
Answer: We can. (1 Peter 4:1)

Lawlessness is sinfulness.

Agreed, so why do you keep flip-flopping on that point ?

Only the pure are "in" Christ, as there is no sin "in" Him.

Your understanding of Greek grammar seems to be your license to keep walking in darkness.
I adjure in Jesus' name to give that understanding back to the devil, from whence it came.

If that state is reachable, why keep inferring that it is impossible ?

Why not just hold to your repentance from sin to begin with, and you won't have to react at all.

Sin, in Christ, is an oxymoron.

Healthy Christians don't sin.
Pretenders do though.

1 John 1:6, 8, and 10, address those walking in darkness, which Pro 4:19 says is the way of the wicked...sin.

God is correct, and His Son commanded us to be as perfect as His Father is. (Matt 5:48)
So is Peter. (1 Peter 4:1)
So is John. (1 John 3:9, 5:18)
So is Paul. (Rom 6:7, 18, 22)

Perfectly obedient to God, is what I mean.

As all sin is known, (James 1:14-15), all men can be sinless.

Paul's pre-conversion narrative not withstanding, he told us how to destroy that "flesh" in Rom 6.
Baptize it into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
The results are in Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

You errantly keep inferring that there is sin in Christ.
Sinners are not in Christ, and in fact, are not even heard when they pray. (John 9:31)

On the day of judgement, the sinners will be raised to everlasting destruction.
It will then be too late to repent and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Too late to destroy the old man, (Rom 6:6), and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
Do it now.

Something came to my mind about this topic just now. IF...IF a Christian brother/sister can not and does not commit sin after coming to Christ to be saved as YOU insist, then why did Jesus give instructions on how to deal with Christians that did sin?

When we look at other passages we see that God clearly prescribes how we should deal with Christians who sin, and when rebuked, keep on sinning. It is not assumed that such sinning results in a loss of salvation, but it may very well lead to severe discipline:

Matthew 18:15-20..........
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 “For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst”.


Then in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, Paul writes to the Christians...........
"It is actually reported that there is immorality (SIN) among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,".

Then again, in 1 Timothy 5 we read what Paul said to Christians......
"19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning".

In the light of these texts, when we read them, it is clear that 1 John 3:9 is saying that a genuine, born again Christian must not live as he or she once did as an unbeliever. Thus, the translations that say “makes a practice of sinning,” is the correct understanding avoiding the inference that it is just one sin.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Yes, the translations and paraphrases show that there are two broad understandings of this verse: habitual and absolute.

The position that "hopeful" has been propagating has been called the new nature view. According to this view believers never sin as an expression of their born-of-God new natures. The new nature doesn’t sin even occasionally. It is sinless.

I think Hopeful's view goes well beyond the sinlessness of the new nature/new man/spiritual nature which is born of God and includes the complete sinless perfection of every true Christian.

Who is correct is the real question?

The one who is wrong is the one who denies that sin is an ongoing problem. Just as we need God’s initial forgiveness to be saved, we likewise need his ongoing cleansing and forgiveness, because sin is still an ongoing problem and anyone who had read Romans 7 knows this is a fact.

I agree Romans 7 proves this point, but I have encountered may people who have clearly read Romans 7 and disagree with us. It's too bad for them because it is also hard to understand Romans 8:1 without understanding Chapter 7.

You said exactly what I have been saying.........
"The problem with the "habitual sin" argument and the "does sin" argument is that we all commit sin on a regular basis. To deny this is to deny reality."

True. The reality of our sins and the sinfulness of the flesh is hard to deny.

1 John 3:9 does not teach that believers achieve sinlessness in this life. Rather, it underscores that those born of God cannot continue unrepentantly in sin because “God’s seed abides” in them.

Amen!

I could pick on this a little bit because the verse does not allude to the concept of repentance of sin but to not doing sin. But it is hard to argue with the fact that God always corrects us when we go wrong and does not stop until we repent and succumb to His correction. To that I can say amen.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You said.......
"If we can sin less, why can't we cease from sin altogether ?"
Answer: We can. (1 Peter 4:1)

Obviousely you have refused to focus on one thing at a time.

Your attempts to derail will profit nobody.
We ca be made new creatures, without a sin nature.
But that wouldn't suit your version of Christianity, so you reject it.

The reason why we can not cease from sin altogether is because we are all sinners!
Romans 3:23..."ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Repent of sin, then you will be a non-sinner !

1 Peter 4:1 seems to have cause you some confusion. That is because your understanding of salvation is flawed at it foundation.
The reference to "ceasing from sin" = Peter's idea here is to be that walking a path of Christ-like suffering prevents following the opposite path, which leads through indulging in sin. It's not that Christians who suffer, or who are prepared to suffer for Christ, have become sinless and perfect. We have not. We will still make sinful choices. But we have certainly set the course of our lives away from the comfort, escape, and pleasures of sin and toward the readiness to be uncomfortable, to experience hard things, for the sake of Jesus.

I am not at all confused by 1 Peter 4:1, because I have taken Peter's message to heart.
I've armed myself with the same mind as Christ had.
I was crucified with Him, suffering with Him, and have ceased form sin.
Gal 5:24 says..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Why won't you ?

Just so that everyone reading these comments understand and that there is NO confusion, allow me to say to all of you that Nowhere does the Bible say that a Christian in this life will ever be completely perfect—that is, free from all sin.

Nowhere ?
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
I have 25 more references to the freedom in Christ that man can obtain.

What my friend "hopeful" is saying is completely his personal "opinion" and there are NO Bible Scriptures to validate that opinion.

Supra.

Now the Bible facts are that As long as we are on this earth, we will always struggle against temptation and sin. All anyone has to do is read Romans 7 and see for your self the struggle we all have with the old nature. That is one reason Jesus taught His disciples to pray (in The Lord’s Prayer), “Forgive us our sins … And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” (Luke 11:4, Matthew 6:13).

Temptation, surely.
But those who have turned from sin, (repented of sin), don't sin anymore.

Sometimes we sin by our actions; sometimes by our motives. Often we sin not because of what we do, but because of what we fail to do. For example, we fail to love or forgive others, or in other ways fail to do things we ought to do—and that is sin.

James tell us in James 1:14-15, what constitutes sin.

However, there are three important truths we need to repeat over and over to ourselves.
First, just because we sin does not mean we are no longer God’s children. Our fellowship with God may be broken, but our relationship is not.

If you sin, you are not a child of God.
It is written..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, " (1 John 3:8-10)

Second, when we sin God stands ready to forgive us, and we need to turn to Him immediately.
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

There is another verse, declaring our freedom from sin !

Third, God wants to help us (through His Holy Spirit, who lives within every believer) to avoid sin in the future. “Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature” (Galatians 5:16).
If you are born again, Thank God that you belong to Christ, and thank Him for His grace and forgiveness when you do sin—and for strength to overcome future temptation. “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One” (1 John 2:1).
Now, study, read the Word, learn Bible doctrine so that you can be approved, a workman for Christ!

Repent of sin, and quit committing sin and bringing forth the fruit of the devil !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Something came to my mind about this topic just now. IF...IF a Christian brother/sister can not and does not commit sin after coming to Christ to be saved as YOU insist, then why did Jesus give instructions on how to deal with Christians that did sin?
When we look at other passages we see that God clearly prescribes how we should deal with Christians who sin, and when rebuked, keep on sinning. It is not assumed that such sinning results in a loss of salvation, but it may very well lead to severe discipline:
Matthew 18:15-20..........
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 “For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst”.

There were no Christians, or NT, at the time Jesus spoke in Matt.

Then in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, Paul writes to the Christians...........
"It is actually reported that there is immorality (SIN) among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,".

The immoral were chased off, as "they were with us but not of us".
If those who committed sin wanted to come back and start a real life in Christ, they would be forgiven and welcomed back.

Then again, in 1 Timothy 5 we read what Paul said to Christians......
"19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning".

Maybe after having printed that, you will take it to heart ?

In the light of these texts, when we read them, it is clear that 1 John 3:9 is saying that a genuine, born again Christian must not live as he or she once did as an unbeliever.

True, and it gives us the tip-off as to whom is of God and who is not of God.

Thus, the translations that say “makes a practice of sinning,” is the correct understanding avoiding the inference that it is just one sin.

As you don't seem to feel anyone can stop sinning, all those you cite, are practicing sinners.
Anyone who wants to love God with his whole heart, will receive the message I bring from Christ and His apostles.
It is written..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)