The Two Natures That Co-Exist In A Spirit-Filled Christian

[Rodger]

No, the folks reborn of God's seed do not commit sin.
His seed cannot bring forth liars, adulterers, or thieves. (1 John 3:9)

I find teachings enabling a true servitude to God, liberating.

So true, but it only applies to those who still walk in and after the flesh, instead of in and after the Spirit.
Rebirth gives us a new nature.
One that reigns in those whose old self/nature was crucified with Christ.

Can you tell me if Spurgeon ever actually repented of sin?
Or did he die in his disobedience ?
He is speaking from the perspective of still being in the flesh.
A circumstance those in Christ have forsaken.

The narrative of his life prior to his conversion, (Rom 7:5), would surely include those words.

The narrative of Paul's pre-conversion life would surely include that message.
Thankfully, he wrote Romans 8:2, which magnifies the difference his pre-conversion life with where he was when he wrote Romans.
Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
He had been freed from what you call..."his sinful nature/slave to the law of sin" by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".
You can be freed too.

Thankfully, rebirth from God's seed alleviates the slavery you write of.

Nobody in the OT.
But God has cleansed the heart of all that submit to Him; by the blood of Christ Jesus. (Acts 2:38)

OT writings that apply to those still living an OT lifestyle.
There are righteous men on earth since we have been enabled to walk "in Christ".
It is those outside of Christ that walk in the flesh and not in the Spirit.

I disagree.

Did they do that, or did they opt to die in their sins ?
I hope they obeyed a Godly exhortation.

Thank God for an apostle's admonissions and guidance !
If we walk in the Spirit, we won't be able to do do the things of the flesh !

Perfectly apt, as it addresses those who walk in darkness.
As do verses 6 and 10.
If we walk in the light, though, all or past sins can be washed away buy the blood of Christ. (1 John 1:7)
So those walking in the light/God, can say they have no sin !

Your rebirth is different from the one I believe in.

Chafer is right.
Thank God for making it possible to have but one "nature", after the old one was is destroyed and a new creature is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ! (Rom 6:4,6)
Thank God !

Speaking only for myself......when you post such long posts with one comment or question after another, I for one can not respond to it.

If you want to have a conversation I would encourage you to ask or post ONE comment at a time as I just can not answer you in the way you are posting.

Now, allow me to say to you that in my 50 years of service to God, I have run across several individuals who have either claimed sinlessness, or strongly argued that sinlessness also known as sinless perfection and entire sanctification which is what you are trying to do here, is achievable.

Even without studying what the Bible says about the possibility of sinlessness, simple observation of people attempting to live the Christian life causes me to KNOW that what you are propossing is completely wrong. Observation of people who claim sinlessness absolutely reinforces my doubt which is why I asked you to allow me 5 minutes to speak with your wife.

One would think that if sinlessness is possible, the Bible would give us an example of someone who achieved it.

And then there are verses such as the following:

“Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20).

“…and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matthew 6:12).

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

But of course, there is a difference between what is supposed to be our goal and what the reality of our existence tells us. Of course, sinlessness is supposed to be our goal. In Matthew 5:48 Jesus says, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Sinless perfection is the goal we should all be striving towards......and we will achieve that when we are Raptured or die in Christ.

No matter how many Scriptures you post without your correct understanding, the Bible does not teach that sinlessness is possible in this boy we have with the ever present Sin Nature in it.

The people in my life whom I would describe as the most spiritually mature would never claim sinlessness. In fact, part of true spiritual maturity is being cognizant of the subtle sins in your life. True progress in the Christian life is honestly and humbly recognizing how much further you must go.

If you think you have arrived at sinlessness, think again. Unless you have arrived in heaven at the feet of Jesus, you still have work to do.

1 John 3:2.............
“Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.”

 

[live2blieve]

John 8:31-36 says that we will no longer be SLAVES to sin and Satan when we have the new birth ("servant of sin"), not that we will no longer do or think any sins. Why do you think that Jesus tells us to pray for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer?

This is what Yahshua the Messiah said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (John 8:34). Therefore, if a person sins, he or she is a slave to sin and Satan. John says the same, "He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8).

As Paul says in Romans 7 about his own struggles against sin, he hates sin and doesn't want to do it, but he does it anyway.

In Romans chapter 7, Paul described himself BEFORE the Holy Spirit came, for contrast. And in chapter 8 he shows the change the Holy Spirit made. Please see for yourself:

What a poor man I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
I thank my God by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore the same I with my mind serve the law of God, but with my flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:24,25)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who in Christ Jesus, who do not live according to the flesh, but according to the spirit,
because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1,2)

Thanks be to God that you, who were formerly slaves to sin, have have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which you were entrusted.
But then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:17,18).

Notice that Paul speaks of himself in chapter 7 as a captive of sin, and in chapters 6 and 8 as having been delivered from the captivity of sin.

Why do you think that Jesus tells us to pray for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer?

The Lord's Prayer was given to the disciples under the Old Covenant, not to us under the New Covenant. Notice that then forgiveness was conditional: first you have to forgive others, and only then God will forgive you (Matthew 6:14,16). Under the New Covenant forgiveness is not by our works to forgive others, but by Grace: first God forgives us and then gives us the ability to forgive others:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you (Ephesians 4:32). See also Collosians 3:12,13.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Speaking only for myself......when you post such long posts with one comment or question after another, I for one can not respond to it.

If you want to have a conversation I would encourage you to ask or post ONE comment at a time as I just can not answer you in the way you are posting.

Now, allow me to say to you that in my 50 years of service to God, I have run across several individuals who have either claimed sinlessness, or strongly argued that sinlessness also known as sinless perfection and entire sanctification which is what you are trying to do here, is achievable.

Even without studying what the Bible says about the possibility of sinlessness, simple observation of people attempting to live the Christian life causes me to KNOW that what you are propossing is completely wrong. Observation of people who claim sinlessness absolutely reinforces my doubt which is why I asked you to allow me 5 minutes to speak with your wife.

One would think that if sinlessness is possible, the Bible would give us an example of someone who achieved it.

And then there are verses such as the following:

“Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20).

“…and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matthew 6:12).

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

But of course, there is a difference between what is supposed to be our goal and what the reality of our existence tells us. Of course, sinlessness is supposed to be our goal. In Matthew 5:48 Jesus says, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Sinless perfection is the goal we should all be striving towards......and we will achieve that when we are Raptured or die in Christ.

No matter how many Scriptures you post without your correct understanding, the Bible does not teach that sinlessness is possible in this boy we have with the ever present Sin Nature in it.

The people in my life whom I would describe as the most spiritually mature would never claim sinlessness. In fact, part of true spiritual maturity is being cognizant of the subtle sins in your life. True progress in the Christian life is honestly and humbly recognizing how much further you must go.

If you think you have arrived at sinlessness, think again. Unless you have arrived in heaven at the feet of Jesus, you still have work to do.

1 John 3:2.............
“Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.”

Here are some posts to show you Jesus', Paul's, John's, and Peter's views on perfect obedience to God...
It is written...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Jesus commanded it.
The rest attest to it.
So do I, thanks be to God.

 

[Rodger]

Here are some posts to show you Jesus', Paul's, John's, and Peter's views on perfect obedience to God...
It is written...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Jesus commanded it.
The rest attest to it.
So do I, thanks be to God.

Sorry pal.......too long to read and respond to.

I will however say to you that some people, and you, might view the command to be perfect as a proof text for sinless perfection.

However, several passages of Scripture acknowledge the ongoing struggle with sin in a Christian’s life (Ga. 5:17; Rom. 7:15-20, 1 John 1:8-10, Philippians 3:12).

In no way can Jesus’ words be used to defend the doctrine of sinless perfection, as Scripture consistently conveys a different message. We will never be perfect, in the sense of “sinless,” in this life.

This realization should frustrate any honest person, for who can achieve moral perfection? Who hasn’t experienced coveting, lust, or hatred? The idea that we can be perfect like God seems hyperbolic. Moreover, the Bible clearly states that we are not perfect. We are all sinners and have fallen short of God’s standard.

Now my friend....if as I asked you already, would like me to explain the Scriptures one by one to you I will be glad to do so.

Lets do the 1st one you posted of Matthew 5:48........
"“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Now lets take this Scripture as "literal" which you are doing.

Right here in red and white Jesus clearly teaches that the heavenly standard of righteousness is absolute. You must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Do you understand that what YOU are saying is that salvation is only offered to those who are "good enough,"?

Now because the Bible says NO-ONE is good, NO ONE is righteous because no one is ever "good enough", No ONE is saved. My dear friend, that's why God offers salvation by grace through faith plus nothing on our part.

Two things follow from Jesus' teaching in this chapter and in this final sentence.

1). Simply following the law of Moses as it was taught by Israel's religious leaders was not nearly good enough. Those who would follow Jesus' teaching, His disciples, must live out righteousness which begins with their inner lives (Matthew 5:21–22, 27–28).

That righteousness means surrendering personal rights for the good of others, have YOU done that? This extends even to the point of loving and praying for their enemies (Matthew 5:43–47).

2). It quickly becomes clear that it is absolutely impossible for sinful human beings to live up to God's standard or righteousness in our own power. That's why the Apostle Paul will famously state in his letter to the Romans, "None is righteous, no, not one" in Romans 3:10. He and Matthew and the rest of the New Testament writers all make it clear that perfect righteousness as Jesus has described it in this chapter can only be received as a gift from God through faith in Jesus by faith in Him as the payment for the worlds sin.(Romans 3:23–25).

Now, if you would like to have a correct explination of the Scripture that "you think" apply to the sinless of man, please post them one at a time and I will be blessed to give you the correct understanding.

God bless.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sorry pal.......too long to read and respond to.
I will however say to you that some people, and you, might view the command to be perfect as a proof text for sinless perfection.

I'm sorry to see you be so dismissive of the Lord Jesus Christ's command in Matt 5:48.

However, several passages of Scripture acknowledge the ongoing struggle with sin in a Christian’s life (Ga. 5:17; Rom. 7:15-20, 1 John 1:8-10, Philippians 3:12).
In no way can Jesus’ words be used to defend the doctrine of sinless perfection, as Scripture consistently conveys a different message. We will never be perfect, in the sense of “sinless,” in this life.

Weren't you crucified with Christ ?
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

This realization should frustrate any honest person, for who can achieve moral perfection? Who hasn’t experienced coveting, lust, or hatred? The idea that we can be perfect like God seems hyperbolic. Moreover, the Bible clearly states that we are not perfect. We are all sinners and have fallen short of God’s standard.

Applying the failures of the OT won't work on NT peoples and abilities.
It is written..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
Aren't you "in Him" ?

Now my friend....if as I asked you already, would like me to explain the Scriptures one by one to you I will be glad to do so.

No thanks, as I need no persuasion to return to a life of death.
In fact, I have been empowered to resist it !
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

Lets do the 1st one you posted of Matthew 5:48........
"“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Now lets take this Scripture as "literal" which you are doing.
Right here in red and white Jesus clearly teaches that the heavenly standard of righteousness is absolute. You must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Do you understand that what YOU are saying is that salvation is only offered to those who are "good enough,"?

Do you really feel that salvation will be offered to those that hate God ?
It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."
And..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Servants of sin hate God.

Now because the Bible says NO-ONE is good, NO ONE is righteous because no one is ever "good enough", No ONE is saved. My dear friend, that's why God offers salvation by grace through faith plus nothing on our part.

Jesus was good, or do you state otherwise ?
Turning from sin and being washed by the blood of Christ will result in reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost
That makes people 'good'.

Two things follow from Jesus' teaching in this chapter and in this final sentence.
1). Simply following the law of Moses as it was taught by Israel's religious leaders was not nearly good enough. Those who would follow Jesus' teaching, His disciples, must live out righteousness which begins with their inner lives (Matthew 5:21–22, 27–28).

Yep, but OT men walking in the flesh, couldn't accomplish what men walking in the Spirit can do now in the NT.
Thank God for rebirth from God's seed !

That righteousness means surrendering personal rights for the good of others, have YOU done that? This extends even to the point of loving and praying for their enemies (Matthew 5:43–47).

I have done that in the past and even now am doing it.
Tomorrow, I will be doing it some more.
I guess you don' have to do that though, as you don't believe it is possible.
So what use do you suppose you are you to God ?

2). It quickly becomes clear that it is absolutely impossible for sinful human beings to live up to God's standard or righteousness in our own power. That's why the Apostle Paul will famously state in his letter to the Romans, "None is righteous, no, not one" in Romans 3:10. He and Matthew and the rest of the New Testament writers all make it clear that perfect righteousness as Jesus has described it in this chapter can only be received as a gift from God through faith in Jesus by faith in Him as the payment for the worlds sin.(Romans 3:23–25).

Isn't it a great thing that we no longer have to be sinful humans, since we have destroyed the old man and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ? (Rom 6:4)

Now, if you would like to have a correct explination of the Scripture that "you think" apply to the sinless of man, please post them one at a time and I will be blessed to give you the correct understanding.
God bless.

I don't find defenses for sin to be correct explanations on any level.
It is written..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I would like to know what your "sources" are for your post.

I wrote that myself.

I have NO desire to argue or belabor the fact that your information is incorrect and is not Biblical.

That's not an argument. I could have said, "I have no desire to argue or belabor the fact that progressive sanctification is incorrect and not biblical". Instead, I challenged the notion by giving the correct biblical view complete with references.

Sanctify/Sanctification, basically means “to make holy or to set apart for God's use”.
There’s a whole cluster of words in this linguistic family: holy, holiness, sanctity, sanctification.

You originally said, "the word translated 'sanctification' in most Bibles means 'separation.'" The new definition above is much better. In regard to God's one-time up-front sanctification of us, He used His power of creation to make us new creatures in Christ, alive from the dead, one with Him, and fit for His service. I referenced 1 Corinthinan 6:11, 1 Thesselonians 5:23, Hebrews 2:11, Hebrews 10:10, and Hebrews 10:14 to support the notion that it is a completed one-time event and not progressive.

But often however, it seems to me that the words “sanctify” and “sanctification” are dug up from their native soil of Old and New Testaments and replanted in a strange kind of spiritualized moralism that focuses on what we do.

I don't know what you are talking about here.

Now you said that there is something called "self sanctification". NO sir, Biblically there is NO such thing.

Now then, YES..... the OT occasionally talks about “consecrating ourselves” or “sanctifying ourselves.”

My dear friend, Self-sanctification, that is, somehow generating holiness by one’s own efforts, is an impossibility.

We can no more self-sanctify than we can self-deify. When God called Israel to “be holy,” he spoke to a people he had already declared holy (Lev. 19:2; Exod. 19:6).

Five verses in the OT contain the words, "sanctify yourselves" (Josh 3:5, Josh 7:13, 1 Sam 16:5, 1 Chron 15:2, and 2 Chron 29:5). The Septuagint uses the Greek words in the same word group you mentioned above (i.e., "There’s a whole cluster of words in this linguistic family: holy, holiness, sanctity, sanctification"). Certainly the OT writer(s) did not intend this to be a command for people to make themselves holy or to generate holiness by their own efforts, which as you said is not humanly possible. Obviously, the OT call to sanctify oneself is about turning from sin to God. And we find the same concept in the NT in that we are called to put off the old man and to put on the new man. Yes, God brought us from death to life, but we are the ones who must put off the old and put on the new.

Concerning the end-in-mind of progressive sanctification (i.e., judging ouselves to be more like Jesus and less like the devil as the frequency, duration, or severity of our sins deminishes over time), it is simply not supported by Scripture. It is impossible to be honest before God and conclude that our sins (all of which come from the flesh) are shrinking over time or that the righteousness displayed in your conduct is approaching that of Jesus. On the contrary, as we grow spiritually, we become more and more aware of the fact that the gap between our performance and what is required of us is infinitely large. As a result, as we grow spiritually, we become more and more cognizant of our need for God’s grace, and we become more and more thankful that He does not judge us according to our works. And we become more and more aware that our mind's alignment with God’s will is not changing over time. Our alignment with God is a state of being created when He made us new creatures in Christ with new hearts that are rightly aligned with Him.

 

[Rodger]

I wrote that myself.

That's not an argument. I could have said, "I have no desire to argue or belabor the fact that progressive sanctification is incorrect and not biblical". Instead, I challenged the notion by giving the correct biblical view complete with references.

You originally said, "the word translated 'sanctification' in most Bibles means 'separation.'" The new definition above is much better. In regard to God's one-time up-front sanctification of us, He used His power of creation to make us new creatures in Christ, alive from the dead, one with Him, and fit for His service. I referenced 1 Corinthinan 6:11, 1 Thesselonians 5:23, Hebrews 2:11, Hebrews 10:10, and Hebrews 10:14 to support the notion that it is a completed one-time event and not progressive.

I don't know what you are talking about here.

Five verses in the OT contain the words, "sanctify yourselves" (Josh 3:5, Josh 7:13, 1 Sam 16:5, 1 Chron 15:2, and 2 Chron 29:5). The Septuagint uses the Greek words in the same word group you mentioned above (i.e., "There’s a whole cluster of words in this linguistic family: holy, holiness, sanctity, sanctification"). Certainly the OT writer(s) did not intend this to be a command for people to make themselves holy or to generate holiness by their own efforts, which as you said is not humanly possible. Obviously, the OT call to sanctify oneself is about turning from sin to God. And we find the same concept in the NT in that we are called to put off the old man and to put on the new man. Yes, God brought us from death to life, but we are the ones who must put off the old and put on the new.

Concerning the end-in-mind of progressive sanctification (i.e., judging ouselves to be more like Jesus and less like the devil as the frequency, duration, or severity of our sins deminishes over time), it is simply not supported by Scripture. It is impossible to be honest before God and conclude that our sins (all of which come from the flesh) are shrinking over time or that the righteousness displayed in your conduct is approaching that of Jesus. On the contrary, as we grow spiritually, we become more and more aware of the fact that the gap between our performance and what is required of us is infinitely large. As a result, as we grow spiritually, we become more and more cognizant of our need for God’s grace, and we become more and more thankful that He does not judge us according to our works. And we become more and more aware that our mind's alignment with God’s will is not changing over time. Our alignment with God is a state of being created when He made us new creatures in Christ with new hearts that are rightly aligned with Him.

I see that asking you to discuss one topic at a time was ignored.

The literal word translated “sanctification” in the Bibles means “separation.” It is used in the New Testament, according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, of the separation of the believer from evil, and it is the result of obedience to the Word of God. Progressive sanctification is what gradually separates the people of God from the world and makes them more and more like Jesus Christ.

ALL Christian sanctification is a progressive action and is is Christ centered and not "self" centered.

You have purposefully IMHO, misapplied the 5 Scriptures to support your "opinion". There is NO such thing as "self sanctification" and more than there is a "self righteousness"!

Scripture defines the Christian life in 3 ways.......
Justification – I am saved at the moment I trusted Jesus as the Saviour of my life.
Sanctification – I am being saved as I go through life and as I grow in knowledge and faith.
Glorification – I will be saved at the moment of my death and will be with Christ eternally.

To those in the internet world reading this, I would like for all of you to know that Sanctification is not a self-help program. You’re not bettering yourself. As a Christian, It is the Holy Spirit at work in you as you surrender to His leadership in your life. Paul stated in Philippians 2:3.....
“For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose”.

He is shaping you and molding you. It’s a continual process in which God is conforming you to the image of Christ.

 

[Rodger]

I'm sorry to see you be so dismissive of the Lord Jesus Christ's command in Matt 5:48.

Weren't you crucified with Christ ?
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

Applying the failures of the OT won't work on NT peoples and abilities.
It is written..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
Aren't you "in Him" ?

No thanks, as I need no persuasion to return to a life of death.
In fact, I have been empowered to resist it !
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

Do you really feel that salvation will be offered to those that hate God ?
It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."
And..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Servants of sin hate God.

Jesus was good, or do you state otherwise ?
Turning from sin and being washed by the blood of Christ will result in reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost
That makes people 'good'.

Yep, but OT men walking in the flesh, couldn't accomplish what men walking in the Spirit can do now in the NT.
Thank God for rebirth from God's seed !

I have done that in the past and even now am doing it.
Tomorrow, I will be doing it some more.
I guess you don' have to do that though, as you don't believe it is possible.
So what use do you suppose you are you to God ?

Isn't it a great thing that we no longer have to be sinful humans, since we have destroyed the old man and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ? (Rom 6:4)

I don't find defenses for sin to be correct explanations on any level.
It is written..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

You said.........
"I'm sorry to see you be so dismissive of the Lord Jesus Christ's command in Matt 5:48."

I am sorry to see that you refuse to accept the actually meaning of that Scripture but use it to try and validate an opinion.
You said...........
"Weren't you crucified with Christ ?
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)".

In the nicest way I can possible say this, I am saddened that you have been so wrongly taught the Word of God in that you would use Scriptures to make them say what YOU want them to say.
So that I may speak to those in the internet world reading our discussion, may I say 1st that CONTEXT is always the way to understand a Scripture, Having said that....In Romans 6:1, the apostle Paul asks believers a rhetorical question, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?” That verse sets the CONTEXT for verses 6-7 that you posted.
This does not mean that believers are sinless. Quite frankly, the idea that any man can live sinless is silly and childness to me. The Scripture you posted rather means that sin is no longer our master which is confirmed in verses 17-18........
“Thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness”.

You said............
"Do you really feel that salvation will be offered to those that hate God ?
It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."
And..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Servants of sin hate God."

My friend.........your question shows the depth of your ignorance to the Word of God.

The answer is YES! How did YOU get saved? You at one time was last and loved your sin more than God but God loved you so much that even in your condition He died to save you!

"For God so loved the world"...the what, THE WORLD! That He grace His only begotten Son!

I can not keep responding to these long posts. If (3rd) you would like to continue the discussion, please ask one topic, one question at a time (3 rd time).

If you can notdo that or refuse to do that, then this will end my conversation with you.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I see that asking you to discuss one topic at a time was ignored.

The literal word translated “sanctification” in the Bibles means “separation.” It is used in the New Testament, according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, of the separation of the believer from evil, and it is the result of obedience to the Word of God. Progressive sanctification is what gradually separates the people of God from the world and makes them more and more like Jesus Christ.

ALL Christian sanctification is a progressive action and is is Christ centered and not "self" centered.

You have purposefully IMHO, misapplied the 5 Scriptures to support your "opinion". There is NO such thing as "self sanctification" and more than there is a "self righteousness"!

Scripture defines the Christian life in 3 ways.......
Justification – I am saved at the moment I trusted Jesus as the Saviour of my life.
Sanctification – I am being saved as I go through life and as I grow in knowledge and faith.
Glorification – I will be saved at the moment of my death and will be with Christ eternally.

To those in the internet world reading this, I would like for all of you to know that Sanctification is not a self-help program. You’re not bettering yourself. As a Christian, It is the Holy Spirit at work in you as you surrender to His leadership in your life. Paul stated in Philippians 2:3.....
“For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose”.

He is shaping you and molding you. It’s a continual process in which God is conforming you to the image of Christ.

Sorry, I missed the request to discuss one topic at the time. Please advise on the topic under consideration and I'll try to address it.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

If the topic is the progressivity of sanctification, Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” It is sometimes cited as Scriptural evidence that God sanctifies us little by little over time. This is understandable because the English translation of the verb (i.e., “those who are being sanctified”) makes it appear that sanctification is being done in present time. But the verb is a present participle in the Greek, which means that the time of action is contemporaneous with that of the main verb. In this case, the main verb, translated, “He has perfected,” is a perfect tense verb that indicates completed action in past time with abiding results. To render the Greek present participle correctly, we must put its time of action with that of the main verb (i.e., in past time). Therefore, a better rendering would be, “For by one offering He has perfected forever the sanctified ones.” This rendering makes it clear that Hebrews 10:14 is speaking of sanctification as a completed act of God with abiding results and not a progressive cleaning over time.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I see that asking you to discuss one topic at a time was ignored.

As stated above, tell me the topic and I'll try to address it.

The literal word translated “sanctification” in the Bibles means “separation.” It is used in the New Testament, according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, of the separation of the believer from evil, and it is the result of obedience to the Word of God. Progressive sanctification is what gradually separates the people of God from the world and makes them more and more like Jesus Christ.

This paragraph contains several topics. One topic that I addressed is the definition of "sanctification". The broad brush definition you quote does not fit the context of every instance of the word's use in the NT.

One topic that is totally unsupported by Scripture is the idea that God's sanctification of us is a gradual process that makes us more like Jesus over time. This topic has two sub-topics. One sub-topic is the progresivity or lack of progressivity of sanctification. I tried to address that sub topic above. The other sub topic is the concept that we become more like Jesus over time. That sub-topic needs a bunch more discussion.

ALL Christian sanctification is a progressive action and is is Christ centered and not "self" centered.

This is just a repeat of the false claim that sanctification is progressive along with a poorly conceived criticism of our need to put off the old man and put on the new man (the latter is another potential topic for further discussion)

You have purposefully IMHO, misapplied the 5 Scriptures to support your "opinion". There is NO such thing as "self sanctification" and more than there is a "self righteousness"!

This is not an argument. It just repeats your claim.

Scripture defines the Christian life in 3 ways.......
Justification – I am saved at the moment I trusted Jesus as the Saviour of my life.
Sanctification – I am being saved as I go through life and as I grow in knowledge and faith.
Glorification – I will be saved at the moment of my death and will be with Christ eternally.

This is the way people who believe in progressive sanctification see justification, sanctification, and glorification. But just stating your beliefs without providing Scriptural evidence of your position does not move the conversation forward. Beyond that shortcoming, it also brings in several additional topics that need further discussion.

To those in the internet world reading this, I would like for all of you to know that Sanctification is not a self-help program. You’re not bettering yourself.

This sentence assumes that most people reading this are not familiar with Scripture and/or do not have the necessary experience to sort out false doctrine as they are guided by the Holy Spirit. My experience on this and other forums is that most people on these sites have well-developed points of view and are not easily convinced to change their minds.

As a Christian, It is the Holy Spirit at work in you as you surrender to His leadership in your life. Paul stated in Philippians 2:3.....
“For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose”.

This is definately another topic for further discussion. I believe it fits perfectly under the topic of self-sanctification. Certainly, the Bible's numerous lengthy passages (Ro 12:1–15:16, Ga 5:1–6:10, Eph 4:17–5:21, Co 2:6–3:17, Titus 1:5–3:11, Ja 1:12–25; 3:13–4:10, and 1 Peter 1:13–2:12; 4:1–11) tell us in various ways to "walk" in the light that the Lord shines on our paths and that doing so produces the fruit of the Spirit and prevents the fruit of the flesh. This has at least three sub-topics for further dission: 1) God's role as leader, 2) our roles as followers, and 3) how are our lives changed when we walk in the Spirit and deny the flesh what it wants.

He is shaping you and molding you. It’s a continual process in which God is conforming you to the image of Christ.

This is a separate topic of discussion as I am aware of no Bible verses that indicate "sactification" relates to God "shaping you and molding you". Seems like this would be in a new topic for discussion on Christian Maturity.

 

[Rodger]

As stated above, tell me the topic and I'll try to address it.

This paragraph contains several topics. One topic that I addressed is the definition of "sanctification". The broad brush definition you quote does not fit the context of every instance of the word's use in the NT.

One topic that is totally unsupported by Scripture is the idea that God's sanctification of us is a gradual process that makes us more like Jesus over time. This topic has two sub-topics. One sub-topic is the progresivity or lack of progressivity of sanctification. I tried to address that sub topic above. The other sub topic is the concept that we become more like Jesus over time. That sub-topic needs a bunch more discussion.

This is just a repeat of the false claim that sanctification is progressive along with a poorly conceived criticism of our need to put off the old man and put on the new man (the latter is another potential topic for further discussion)

This is not an argument. It just repeats your claim.

This is the way people who believe in progressive sanctification see justification, sanctification, and glorification. But just stating your beliefs without providing Scriptural evidence of your position does not move the conversation forward. Beyond that shortcoming, it also brings in several additional topics that need further discussion.

This sentence assumes that most people reading this are not familiar with Scripture and/or do not have the necessary experience to sort out false doctrine as they are guided by the Holy Spirit. My experience on this and other forums is that most people on these sites have well-developed points of view and are not easily convinced to change their minds.

This is definately another topic for further discussion. I believe it fits perfectly under the topic of self-sanctification. Certainly, the Bible's numerous lengthy passages (Ro 12:1–15:16, Ga 5:1–6:10, Eph 4:17–5:21, Co 2:6–3:17, Titus 1:5–3:11, Ja 1:12–25; 3:13–4:10, and 1 Peter 1:13–2:12; 4:1–11) tell us in various ways to "walk" in the light that the Lord shines on our paths and that doing so produces the fruit of the Spirit and prevents the fruit of the flesh. This has at least three sub-topics for further dission: 1) God's role as leader, 2) our roles as followers, and 3) how are our lives changed when we walk in the Spirit and deny the flesh what it wants.

This is a separate topic of discussion as I am aware of no Bible verses that indicate "sactification" relates to God "shaping you and molding you". Seems like this would be in a new topic for discussion on Christian Maturity.

OK....I will address the 1st responce on your post.

Scripture defines the Christian life in 3 ways.......
Justification – I am saved at the moment I trusted Jesus as the Saviour of my life.
Sanctification – I am being saved as I go through life and as I grow in knowledge and faith.
Glorification – I will be saved at the moment of my death and will be with Christ eternally.

You said........
This is the way people who believe in progressive sanctification see justification, sanctification, and glorification. But just stating your beliefs without providing Scriptural evidence of your position does not move the conversation forward. Beyond that shortcoming, it also brings in several additional topics that need further discussion.

As those 3 events are so basic Christianity, I really did not think that Scriptures were needed. I see that I was in error on your part. So the.............

1. Justification.
Hab. 2:4 = "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith".

Romans 3:24-26 =
"And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus".

Romans 4:25.......
"Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification."

Romans 5:1..........
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".

2. Sanctification
2 Thess 2:13.......
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

Acts 26:18.......
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

3. Glorification
Romans 8:30........
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Colossians 3:4......
"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Philippians 3:21.....
"Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body."

1 John 3:2..............
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

 

[Rodger]

As stated above, tell me the topic and I'll try to address it.

This paragraph contains several topics. One topic that I addressed is the definition of "sanctification". The broad brush definition you quote does not fit the context of every instance of the word's use in the NT.

One topic that is totally unsupported by Scripture is the idea that God's sanctification of us is a gradual process that makes us more like Jesus over time. This topic has two sub-topics. One sub-topic is the progresivity or lack of progressivity of sanctification. I tried to address that sub topic above. The other sub topic is the concept that we become more like Jesus over time. That sub-topic needs a bunch more discussion.

This is just a repeat of the false claim that sanctification is progressive along with a poorly conceived criticism of our need to put off the old man and put on the new man (the latter is another potential topic for further discussion)

This is not an argument. It just repeats your claim.

This is the way people who believe in progressive sanctification see justification, sanctification, and glorification. But just stating your beliefs without providing Scriptural evidence of your position does not move the conversation forward. Beyond that shortcoming, it also brings in several additional topics that need further discussion.

This sentence assumes that most people reading this are not familiar with Scripture and/or do not have the necessary experience to sort out false doctrine as they are guided by the Holy Spirit. My experience on this and other forums is that most people on these sites have well-developed points of view and are not easily convinced to change their minds.

This is definately another topic for further discussion. I believe it fits perfectly under the topic of self-sanctification. Certainly, the Bible's numerous lengthy passages (Ro 12:1–15:16, Ga 5:1–6:10, Eph 4:17–5:21, Co 2:6–3:17, Titus 1:5–3:11, Ja 1:12–25; 3:13–4:10, and 1 Peter 1:13–2:12; 4:1–11) tell us in various ways to "walk" in the light that the Lord shines on our paths and that doing so produces the fruit of the Spirit and prevents the fruit of the flesh. This has at least three sub-topics for further dission: 1) God's role as leader, 2) our roles as followers, and 3) how are our lives changed when we walk in the Spirit and deny the flesh what it wants.

This is a separate topic of discussion as I am aware of no Bible verses that indicate "sactification" relates to God "shaping you and molding you". Seems like this would be in a new topic for discussion on Christian Maturity.

He is shaping you and molding you. It’s a continual process in which God is conforming you to the image of Christ.

You said......
"This is a separate topic of discussion as I am aware of no Bible verses that indicate "sactification" relates to God "shaping you and molding you". Seems like this would be in a new topic for discussion on Christian Maturity."

Scriptures say =
When we trust God, we allow Him to mold us and lead us toward His desires for us. This process can be challenging, but it ultimately brings transformation and sanctification. Together, let us learn to fully place our faith in God and trust in His perfect plan for our lives. Hebrews 11:6

“It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality.” –
1 Thessalonians 4:3
“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” – Hebrews 12:14
“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” – John 14:26

“For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” – Ephesians 2:10

 

[for_his_glory]

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:31-36)

The Savior said very clearly that those who shall know the truth will be free from sin, i.e. won't commit sin. Apparently, these corrupt bodies can be freed from the sin nature, because Christ will replace it. Therefore, if a believer is born again (and not all who believe are born again), he or she has only one nature:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthiand 5:17).

This is speaking about the Spiritual inner man that connects us to God and His Son Christ Jesus after we have been Spiritually reborn again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7. We still live in this fleshly body where the nature to sin dwells as flesh and Spirit can not mix and we have not yet been made incorruptible nor immortal, but to follow that of Galatians 5:16-26.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Sanctification is a process of transformation that happens after we trust in Christ for salvation. It's a lifelong process of being set apart for God's use or in other words being made holy as we continue to grow in faith. None of us are perfect yet, but being perfected by the Holy Spirit as we still live in a fleshly body where the nature to sin dwells and we battle against flesh and Spirit daily. This is why it is so important to try and guard our self, but sometimes we do get in the flesh when we allow our emotions to get in the way letting anger well up in us that speaks angry words. This is a process of time that we keep walking in the Spirit as flesh and Spirit will fight against each other as no one is yet perfect as Christ is perfect, but we are to try and be perfect that only comes by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who works in us towards that perfection that is Christ.

This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality as this happens when Christ returns on the last day and we are changed as we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory, 1Corinthians 15:50-58, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory, Colossians 3:1-4.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. Colossians 3:5-10

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness
and let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord and whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Colossians 3:12-17.

 

[Rodger]

As stated above, tell me the topic and I'll try to address it.

This paragraph contains several topics. One topic that I addressed is the definition of "sanctification". The broad brush definition you quote does not fit the context of every instance of the word's use in the NT.

One topic that is totally unsupported by Scripture is the idea that God's sanctification of us is a gradual process that makes us more like Jesus over time. This topic has two sub-topics. One sub-topic is the progresivity or lack of progressivity of sanctification. I tried to address that sub topic above. The other sub topic is the concept that we become more like Jesus over time. That sub-topic needs a bunch more discussion.

This is just a repeat of the false claim that sanctification is progressive along with a poorly conceived criticism of our need to put off the old man and put on the new man (the latter is another potential topic for further discussion)

This is not an argument. It just repeats your claim.

This is the way people who believe in progressive sanctification see justification, sanctification, and glorification. But just stating your beliefs without providing Scriptural evidence of your position does not move the conversation forward. Beyond that shortcoming, it also brings in several additional topics that need further discussion.

This sentence assumes that most people reading this are not familiar with Scripture and/or do not have the necessary experience to sort out false doctrine as they are guided by the Holy Spirit. My experience on this and other forums is that most people on these sites have well-developed points of view and are not easily convinced to change their minds.

This is definately another topic for further discussion. I believe it fits perfectly under the topic of self-sanctification. Certainly, the Bible's numerous lengthy passages (Ro 12:1–15:16, Ga 5:1–6:10, Eph 4:17–5:21, Co 2:6–3:17, Titus 1:5–3:11, Ja 1:12–25; 3:13–4:10, and 1 Peter 1:13–2:12; 4:1–11) tell us in various ways to "walk" in the light that the Lord shines on our paths and that doing so produces the fruit of the Spirit and prevents the fruit of the flesh. This has at least three sub-topics for further dission: 1) God's role as leader, 2) our roles as followers, and 3) how are our lives changed when we walk in the Spirit and deny the flesh what it wants.

This is a separate topic of discussion as I am aware of no Bible verses that indicate "sactification" relates to God "shaping you and molding you". Seems like this would be in a new topic for discussion on Christian Maturity.

You said.........
"This sentence assumes that most people reading this are not familiar with Scripture and/or do not have the necessary experience to sort out false doctrine as they are guided by the Holy Spirit. My experience on this and other forums is that most people on these sites have well-developed points of view and are not easily convinced to change their minds."

My experience is that a great number of people on Christian forums do not actually understand the Scriptures. Many, ,many people are taught something un-biblical, and they want to try and influence others on forums. If that is not true, then why in the world are you and I discussing such an elementary topic as the "sinlessness" of men which is impossible.
Then there are man, many who bring their "denominational dogma" to a forum for some kind of vindication.
I am absolutely positive that you are a well meaning Christian but you have been wrongly taught something that is not possible!
“Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20).
“…and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matthew 6:12).
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).
Of course, sinlessness is supposed to be our goal. In Matthew 5:48 which you have used, Jesus says.... “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Sinless perfection is the goal we should all be striving towards. Until we are glorified in God’s presence in heaven, though, we will still inhabit a sin-infected body. The struggle against our flesh is constant, even for the most mature Christian (Romans 7:15–24). In the Christian life, we should progressively achieve greater and greater victory over sin, but our battle against sin will not end this side of eternity.

Even when shown the Scriptures of how impossible that is, some on forums dig in deeper.
My advice is that when you are in a hole, stop digging.

 

[Rodger]

This is speaking about the Spiritual inner man that connects us to God and His Son Christ Jesus after we have been Spiritually reborn again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7. We still live in this fleshly body where the nature to sin dwells as flesh and Spirit can not mix and we have not yet been made incorruptible nor immortal, but to follow that of Galatians 5:16-26.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Sanctification is a process of transformation that happens after we trust in Christ for salvation. It's a lifelong process of being set apart for God's use or in other words being made holy as we continue to grow in faith. None of us are perfect yet, but being perfected by the Holy Spirit as we still live in a fleshly body where the nature to sin dwells and we battle against flesh and Spirit daily. This is why it is so important to try and guard our self, but sometimes we do get in the flesh when we allow our emotions to get in the way letting anger well up in us that speaks angry words. This is a process of time that we keep walking in the Spirit as flesh and Spirit will fight against each other as no one is yet perfect as Christ is perfect, but we are to try and be perfect that only comes by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who works in us towards that perfection that is Christ.

This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality as this happens when Christ returns on the last day and we are changed as we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory, 1Corinthians 15:50-58, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory, Colossians 3:1-4.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. Colossians 3:5-10

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness
and let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord and whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Colossians 3:12-17.

Ding ....Ding......Ding! We have a winner!

 

[for_his_glory]

Ding ....Ding......Ding! We have a winner!

Just giving what scripture says.