The Two Natures That Co-Exist In A Spirit-Filled Christian

[Bruce.Leiter]

Speaking only for myself......when you post such long posts with one comment or question after another, I for one can not respond to it.

If you want to have a conversation I would encourage you to ask or post ONE comment at a time as I just can not answer you in the way you are posting.

Now, allow me to say to you that in my 50 years of service to God, I have run across several individuals who have either claimed sinlessness, or strongly argued that sinlessness also known as sinless perfection and entire sanctification which is what you are trying to do here, is achievable.

Even without studying what the Bible says about the possibility of sinlessness, simple observation of people attempting to live the Christian life causes me to KNOW that what you are propossing is completely wrong. Observation of people who claim sinlessness absolutely reinforces my doubt which is why I asked you to allow me 5 minutes to speak with your wife.

One would think that if sinlessness is possible, the Bible would give us an example of someone who achieved it.

And then there are verses such as the following:

“Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20).

“…and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matthew 6:12).

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

But of course, there is a difference between what is supposed to be our goal and what the reality of our existence tells us. Of course, sinlessness is supposed to be our goal. In Matthew 5:48 Jesus says, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Sinless perfection is the goal we should all be striving towards......and we will achieve that when we are Raptured or die in Christ.

No matter how many Scriptures you post without your correct understanding, the Bible does not teach that sinlessness is possible in this boy we have with the ever present Sin Nature in it.

The people in my life whom I would describe as the most spiritually mature would never claim sinlessness. In fact, part of true spiritual maturity is being cognizant of the subtle sins in your life. True progress in the Christian life is honestly and humbly recognizing how much further you must go.

If you think you have arrived at sinlessness, think again. Unless you have arrived in heaven at the feet of Jesus, you still have work to do.

1 John 3:2.............
“Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.”

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:31-36)

The Savior said very clearly that those who shall know the truth will be free from sin, i.e. won't commit sin. Apparently, these corrupt bodies can be freed from the sin nature, because Christ will replace it. Therefore, if a believer is born again (and not all who believe are born again), he or she has only one nature:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthiand 5:17).

You are right to say that sin and Satan no longer dominate Christians as a slave master would his slaves. However, we still have a sinful nature within us, as the many New Testament commands demonstrate. Because of Christ's death and resurrection, the Father CONSIDERS us perfect in his sight and not guilty as his verdict because Jesus took our guilty verdict on himself on the cross.

But sin still remains in us and must be rooted out and replaced by our new nature that was given us with the new birth. Considers Paul's commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18:
1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

And since Paul says in Philippians 3:12-14, that he is not perfect yet, I will never claim to be sinless either:
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Our goal with Paul's is our final resurrection perfection, which we will have when God raises us from the dead.

Thank you for the explanation. As before, I pretty much agree with everything you said (except the progressive sanctification piece). I agree completely with what you said about the identity of the new man being the "newly regenerated spiritual nature of the born-again Christian". My POV about the new man having true righteousness and holiness may be slightly different than yours, but certainly I do not say or imply that I do not sin. On the contrary, I take personal responsibility for my sins and the sinfulness of my flesh. Those things are a part of who I am in Adam (the physical me), but I receive and rely heavily on the forgiveness for those things that I have in Christ. But I also see something different in the new man/the spiritual me/ who I am in Christ. I see love for God, love for the things of God, love for the people of God, and love for those who are outside. Though I sense that God's Spirit refreshes the spiritual me on a daily basis, I never see the spiritual me changing sides to be in opposition to God or the things of God. It seems like most of these things are similar to what you believe (except the progressive sanctification part).

And you have 17 years on me in terms of salvation. I was saved as a teenager in 1977. Saved in 1960?

I'm 82, have been saved for 66 years, have experienced some spiritual growth (but need more), and cannot claim to be fully sanctified yet until I die, as Paul and Peter say:
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Eph_4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph_4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
2Th_1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
2Pe_3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are right to say that sin and Satan no longer dominate Christians as a slave master would his slaves. However, we still have a sinful nature within us, as the many New Testament commands demonstrate. Because of Christ's death and resurrection, the Father CONSIDERS us perfect in his sight and not guilty as his verdict because Jesus took our guilty verdict on himself on the cross.

But sin still remains in us and must be rooted out and replaced by our new nature that was given us with the new birth. Considers Paul's commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18:
1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

And since Paul says in Philippians 3:12-14, that he is not perfect yet, I will never claim to be sinless either:
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Our goal with Paul's is our final resurrection perfection, which we will have when God raises us from the dead.

I'm 82, have been saved for 66 years, have experienced some spiritual growth (but need more), and cannot claim to be fully sanctified yet until I die, as Paul and Peter say:
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Eph_4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph_4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
2Th_1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
2Pe_3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

It is written..."Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)

No sinner serves God or Jesus Christ.
I thank God for delivering us the gifts that can free us from service to sin !

 

[Rodger]

You are right to say that sin and Satan no longer dominate Christians as a slave master would his slaves. However, we still have a sinful nature within us, as the many New Testament commands demonstrate. Because of Christ's death and resurrection, the Father CONSIDERS us perfect in his sight and not guilty as his verdict because Jesus took our guilty verdict on himself on the cross.

But sin still remains in us and must be rooted out and replaced by our new nature that was given us with the new birth. Considers Paul's commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18:
1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

And since Paul says in Philippians 3:12-14, that he is not perfect yet, I will never claim to be sinless either:
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Our goal with Paul's is our final resurrection perfection, which we will have when God raises us from the dead.

I'm 82, have been saved for 66 years, have experienced some spiritual growth (but need more), and cannot claim to be fully sanctified yet until I die, as Paul and Peter say:
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Eph_4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph_4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
2Th_1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
2Pe_3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Yes sir. Thank you and You said..........
"However, we still have a sinful nature within us, as the many New Testament commands demonstrate. Because of Christ's death and resurrection, the Father CONSIDERS us perfect in his sight and not guilty as his verdict because Jesus took our guilty verdict on himself on the cross.

But sin still remains in us and must be rooted out and replaced by our new nature that was given us with the new birth. Considers Paul's commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18"

Amen! That is exactly what I have said!

 

[Rodger]

To say "God bless" is not using His name is vain, simply because "God" is not the name.

It does not matter if you believe or don't believe me. What is important is that you believe the power of the Holy Spirit and the Bible:

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (John 8:32).

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:24).

My friend. I used that saying only to show how absurd it is for anyone to say that they do not sin and live a sinless life.

IMHO......when we say "God Bless You".....or something like "O God" or ......"Christ almighty" in any form that IS NOT PRAISE, That action is in fact using God's name in vain and is so easy to do that we dismiss it outright.

Now then.....No One believes in the power of the Holy Spirit any more than I do.

 

[Rodger]

It is written..."Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)

No sinner serves God or Jesus Christ.
I thank God for delivering us the gifts that can free us from service to sin !

And Romans 7:16-20
"For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 ;Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17;So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 ;For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19;For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20;Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."

That is coming from the Apostle Paul, who himself said that among sinners, "he was chief"!

You said........
"No sinner serves God or Jesus Christ."

That is actually incorrect. Every born again sinner is still a sinner and we all serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

You said........
"I thank God for delivering us the gifts that can free us from service to sin !"

Almost correct. The gift that sets us free from the service to sin is only one thing.....The shed blood of God!

I feel like I need to explain to you that “Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God.

That being the Biblical fact and explination we then need to understand that We all sin (Romans 3:23),

Even if what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6).

Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).

Now, However, it does not matter how many Scriptures we "slant or cherry pick" we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants.

In Romans 7:21–23, which I have used several times now, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.”

Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

My dear friend, the book of 1 John was written to Christians.
The apostle says in verse 8-9....
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”.

Do YOU understand that what you have said and are saying it directly in opposition to the Word of God???

It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” and “quench” the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.