[_ Old Earth _] Christ is Truth, and Urim and Thummim is the ocular device that reveals it

[cupid dave]

We know this is the case because logically, a device which was given to the High Priest in order to divine the will of God would necessarily require it devulge the Truth.





Jewish Encyclopedia:

URIM AND THUMMIM


Biblical References.—Biblical DatObjects connected with the breastplate of the high priest, and used as a kind of divine oracle. Since the days of the Alexandrian translators of the Old Testament it has been asserted that

mean "revelation and truth" (δήλωσις καὶ ἀλήθεια).


So what are the hypothesis that can explain how this would work???

Here is one:

It takes a cube shape because the Jews used the Cube ritually in so many ways, that it hints at something that would allow communication with God that reveals the Truth, aka, Christ.


When the jew wants to pray to God, he dons the Tfillin which is a cube he ties onto his forehead, hinting at the idea of its symbolism for what goes on inside his mind.

Modern thinking suggests that there is a concrete model for this same idea, as set forth by Guilford's Model of Intelligence:

The Cube proposed herein contains the 22 letters of the Hebrew Alphabet which were used to write the Old Testament.
They are place markers for concepts that are grouped into those well known and mystical numbers which scripture repeats again and again in order to focus our attention of the number sets of 3, 7, and 12.

 

[cupid dave]

Religion in general has avoided the whole issue of Urim and Thummim.

They have been content to side step any investigation into the idea because of fatalism, or the belief that some things, even with prayer, are beyond human comprehension, so why try?

Only the Mormons have ventured to base their entire relgious insight on the fact they they believe Smith had in his hands the "Golden Glasses," i.e. the Urim and Thummim.

They capitalize on this fatalistic christian rationale by further explaining these urim and thummim Golden Glasses were taken away from Smith and never seen by anyone ever again.

This view is supported by no evidence that Smith every actually had such a pair of glasses, nor by anything in the Bible that suggests glasses were the mystical way priests could "see" what God wished for them ot "see."

Does that not bother any christian or Jew?
Does that not suggest that other religions ought at least counter mormonism with an examination of the whole idea and look to the scriptures to better understand what this Urim and Thummim is all about?


If you woukld like to read what I have prepared in detail and examine this idea from the point of view that it ought be supported in te Bible, then PM me for a one on one, because I wil not cast pearl before swine.

 

[Knotical]

Aren't Urim and Thummim two of the dwarfs in the Hobbit?

 

[cupid dave]

Aren't Urim and Thummim two of the dwarfs in the Hobbit?

LOL

May as well be for the religious community.
They have zero interst in a discovery or recreation of any device that will allow direct contact between the user and God, because that will render them worthless, and actually hold the possibility for pulling down the pants of the priesthood, as way off the mark about the Bible and the sacred message.

The worst possible scenario for religion, Jewish, muslim, and Christian, would be an Urim and Thummim that the angels did NOT take back!

 

[Sinthesis]

They were probably just dice, but loaded by God.

 

[jasoncran]

the urim and thurim( dave that is the kaballah) were means to which the high priest heard from god. when it says and david went to the priest and inquired of the lord that is what they did with them. they used the twelve stones of isreal and formed letters as lead by the Spirit with the urim and thurim being yay or nay. nothing fantastic about them.

 

[cupid dave]

the urim and thurim( dave that is the kaballah) were means to which the high priest heard from god. when it says and david went to the priest and inquired of the lord that is what they did with them. they used the twelve stones of isreal and formed letters as lead by the Spirit with the urim and thurim being yay or nay. nothing fantastic about them.

Yeah,...

The kabbalahists played around with the idea I think, but they never seem to have set down or told us exactly what they thougt this was or how it might accoplish the job of figuring out what God was to divine.

My take is that U&T is about a pattern that our mind uses to organize the sensory information coming into the brain in some fixed fashion or relationship between the different organs which connect us to the external world.

I would first suggest that the five senses are a starting point for everything we examine, comparing what we see with what we feel or smell, for instance.

In other words, my first guess would be that five markers or "stones" represent the five basic sensory inputs nwe can and ought comoare in order to discover the Truth about what we are thinking.
Since Truth is the word Jesus said personified his presence among us, this all follows pretty logically so far, imo.


We might add the idea that in general, people seem to think about things on different planes of introspection which some people see as five different genral perspective thatthe abcients probably recognized too:

This is just the brain storming beginning which infers that two dice doesn't seem to make sense beyond the implication that God throws dice in spite of what Einstein said.

 

[jasoncran]

i dont buy the kaballah , rather all of it. if jeff has time i will ask him on this as its mentioned in great detail in exodus.ramban will mention the
caballah.

 

[cupid dave]

i dont buy the kaballah , rather all of it. if jeff has time i will ask him on this as its mentioned in great detail in exodus.ramban will mention the
caballah.

I don't "buy" kabbalah either because the rabbi themselves admit it is the Secret Doctrine of Israel.

If the Rabbi know the secret, they are not and have not told us, but more likely, they don't even know what the secret is.
The whole present subject of Kabbalah arose in the 12th century of this era, and was a combination of tales and laymen's guesses and legends.
That they understood there was some mystery science once known to the priesthood is enough for us to examine some of the things that have come down, but none of the explanations concerning what those drawings and artifacts actually mean.

What I surmise about the U&T has scripture that detail the geometry of the five stones and presents information that can at least be ypothesized as intentional hints for us to use in order to re-discover the object.
I could even argue that we ought expect that scrioture would contain the hints and leads necessary for the discovery of such a valuable tool.

 

[Adam]

The only reference to five stones in scripture are the five slingstones David chose to kill the Philistine.

They were smooth. There is no geometry given and certainly not "detailed geometry." The choice of weapon was preferable to heavy armor and a sword. The stones were used for one purpose: to kill the Philistine. There is no relevance to five senses here.


Also, your picture regarding "Ancient Sketch About Kaballah" is not ancient. The invention of the microscope is older. Its subject matter is neither in regard to these five stones or the Urim and Thummim.


If you want to have a compelling story, you need to at least be informed and knowledgable about the subject under discussion. You can't just make a collage out of random google search results and expect to have a reasonable argument. Everything you "surmise" seems to be self-proclaimed without any grounding in reality or fact-checking.

It is whimsical and entirely false.

 

[Adam]

with the urim and thurim being yay or nay.

Something like that...

 

[jasoncran]

the caballah is older then you think, its the zohar and other additions that make it bad. the gemetria and pictographic language of the hebrews is usefull.

 

[cupid dave]

the caballah is older then you think, its the zohar and other additions that make it bad. the gemetria and pictographic language of the hebrews is usefull.

I agre with you, the Kabbalah goes all the way back to the wilderness of the Sinia, when MNoses used it to codify the hands of his priests so that they could memorize the text of the Torah.
The actually written Torah did not appear as canon until @900BC, which was 400 years after the Kohanim priests had been orally presenting it from memory.
They coded all the pertinent information on their hands so that the old Telephone Game would not eradicate the actual facts over tie.

They wolud assmble at least 10 preists together in a quorum before any presenttation would begin, and each priest would present his "part" of the story or scriptures in turn.

What I was referring to was that all those priestly "secrets' had been lost and it was in the 12th century that Jews had begun a reconstructionism to try to gather all the clues they coud find to figure out what it had been.

 

[jasoncran]

no that isnt the case.cabbalan goes back to the third century with the zohar

 

[cupid dave]

Something like that...

Yep...

Somethin' like that, but the Urim and Thummim also was part of the priestly arts still present as a vistage of what it had been 3362 years ago when the Kohans perform the ritual Hand Blessing ceremony that still attests to this process of the Oral Torah:

There is a divine relationship between the physical model of the five parts if the Cube-shaped Urim/Thummim and the use of the hands of the Kohans is seen in the various ways these men would hold their hands:

We read about this whole thing re-appearing again in the end days as Christ returns with the seven stars in his hand:

 

[stovebolts]

I'm not on my outer where I can link, but essentially the way I recall it, the urim worked in conjunction with the breast piece. If you recall, the breast piece had 12 stones, each inscribed with the name of a tribe. The urim was simply a parchment with gods devine name which was placed inside the breastplate. I can post scripture later if there is any doubt.

As far as the oracles of god, it was said that letters on the breastplate would light up and with guidance from the holy spirit one would be able to put the letters in their proper sequence to see what gods response was.

 

[Adam]

Yep...

Somethin' like that, but the Urim and Thummim also was part of the priestly arts still present as a vistage of what it had been 3362 years ago when the Kohans perform the ritual Hand Blessing ceremony that still attests to this process of the Oral Torah:

There is a divine relationship between the physical model of the five parts if the Cube-shaped Urim/Thummim and the use of the hands of the Kohans is seen in the various ways these men would hold their hands:

We read about this whole thing re-appearing again in the end days as Christ returns with the seven stars in his hand:

The hand blessing is fairly modern.

There is no scriptural or cultural/historical support for your other claims.

 

[cupid dave]

I'm not on my outer where I can link, but essentially the way I recall it, the urim worked in conjunction with the breast piece. If you recall, the breast piece had 12 stones, each inscribed with the name of a tribe. The urim was simply a parchment with gods devine name which was placed inside the breastplate. I can post scripture later if there is any doubt.
As far as the oracles of god, it was said that letters on the breastplate would light up and with guidance from the holy spirit one would be able to put the letters in their proper sequence to see what gods response was.

Yes, that is partly true, in that the breast plate has 12 stones on a square geometric shaped necklace that went around the neck of the high priest or kohan, a the jews called him.

The part about the lighting up was not in the bible.

That was a common hypothesis among some groups of believers who were trying to figure out ideas about how this thingee would work.

Their idea of course, was surrealistic and magic, since they implied that god lite the lights for them.
My first observation was that 12 items in rows cannot form a square, but would require a rectangular arrangement.


That seemed curious, that 4 rows of 3 stones each were to form a necklace that hung around Aaron's neck which repeatedly was over emphasized by the term "foursquare."




Ex 35:32 And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
33 And in the cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work
Ex 28:15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work.

Assuming that the hint of this being "curious" gives permission to try arrangements that would be square some ides occurred to me.


The theory I came up with was that these stones were "cunningly" set in four rows of three stones grouped together this way:

 

[stovebolts]

Actually the breast plate in it's entirety held 14 stones. 2 of which were upon the shoulders. Among all 14 stones and the devine name of Lord all Hebrew characters were represented.

Jog my memory, but I din't recall anything resembling anything like a necklace.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/beged/priestly_garments-7.htm

 

[cupid dave]

Actually the breast plate in it's entirety held 14 stones. 2 of which were upon the shoulders. Among all 14 stones and the devine name of Lord all Hebrew characters were represented.

Jog my memory, but I din't recall anything resembling anything like a necklace.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/beged/priestly_garments-7.htm

Two of the 14 to which you refer were actuallyn the ephoid, a pouch which held the five parts of the U&T.

The Breastplate you show above is clearly not square, but rectangular in shape.

It does not arrange the stones in the "curious" placements which I have shown above, but seems to be getting whited out (by the mods I presume).

<body style="display:block;"><body background="http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6433/blankwr0.jpg">


(If the people running this site are so convinced that this diagram may be harmful to your belief system i a reassured that the evidence is beginning to add up.)