[_ Old Earth _] Christ is Truth, and Urim and Thummim is the ocular device that reveals it

[cupid dave]

 

[stovebolts]

Cupid,
I can see the pictures without them being whited out. Oh, and the mod's don't have the power to "white out" your pictures. The site has automatic filters that do that.

Jason has my Ramban commentary and it's been over a year since I've studied this. Your killing me Jason lol!

Anyway, here is how the Jews interpret that verse.

15. You shall make a choshen of judgment, the work of a master weaver. You shall make it like the work of the ephod; of gold, blue, purple, and crimson wool, and twisted fine linen shall you make it.

Here is how the KJV interprets it.
And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work;
Strongs starts out with this for cunning. a primitive root; properly, to plait or interpenetrate, i.e. (literally) to weave or (gen.) to fabricate;

This is what Rashi says:
a choshen of judgment: which atones for the perversion of justice (Zev. 88b). Another interpretation: [The choshen is referred to as] judgment because it clarifies its words [see Rashi on verse 30], and its promise comes true, dere(s)nement in Old French, [meaning] a clear statement. For [the word] מִשְׁפָּט has three usages: 1) the words of the pleas of the litigants, 2) the verdict, and 3) the punishment of the judgment, whether the punishment of death, the punishment of lashes, or the punishment of monetary payment. But this one [use of the word מִֹשְפָט] serves as an expression of the clarification of words, [meaning] that it explains and clarifies its words.

like the work of the ephod: The work of a master weaver and of five kinds [of material].

And verse 30:

30. You shall place the Urim and the Tummim into the choshen of judgment so that they will be over Aaron's heart when he comes before the Lord, and Aaron will carry the judgment of the children of Israel over his heart before the Lord at all times.

The Urim and the Tummim: This [refers to the] inscription of the explicit Name, which he [Moshe] would place within the folds of the choshen, through which it would light up its words (מֵאִיר) and perfect (מְךְתַּמֵם) its words. [I.e., the Urim and Tummim explain their words, and their predictions never fail (on Yoma 73b).] In the Second Temple there was the choshen, because it was impossible for the Kohen Gadol to be missing [any of the original] garments, but that Name was not inside it. Because of that Name, it was called “judgment,” as it is said: “and he shall inquire for him through the judgment of the Urim” (Num. 27:21).

the judgment of the children of Israel: [I.e., the solution of] the matter about which they [the Israelites] are judging and debating, whether or not to do something. According to the aggadic midrash (Lev. Rabbah 10:6) that the choshen atoned for the perverters of justice-it was called “judgment” because of [its] forgiveness for the [sins of] judgment.

Assuming that the hint of this being "curious" gives permission to try arrangements that would be square some ides occurred to me.


The theory I came up with was that these stones were "cunningly" set in four rows of three stones grouped together this way:

That's a very interesting drawing. I wish I could read it a bit better. I'm assuming the words are the 12 tribes? Also, what idea gave you the placement?

 

[Adam]

 

[cupid dave]

Cupid,
I can see the pictures without them being whited out. Oh, and the mod's don't have the power to "white out" your pictures. The site has automatic filters that do that.


That's a very interesting drawing. I wish I could read it a bit better. I'm assuming the words are the 12 tribes? Also, what idea gave you the placement?

Oh,... great!

They put them back in so you can see what I am saying about the geometry.

The Breast Plate representation I showed above occurred to me for a number of reasons, but like ideas which so often come to us out of the blue, I just realized that this arrangement would agree with the square arrangement necessiated by the scriptures, (foursquare), and also explain the use of the word foursquared, as opposed to a simple square breastplate.


Foursquared actually comes from a root that means "at the corners," or "at all fours," according to Strong's Concordance.

I had been wondering what and why an altar would be "horned," and the idea of this horn on an altar which was dug up, archeologically, in Israel appeared in the News.
The connection with the five parts of the cube which is so repeated in the bible suddenly made sense:

Here, the square is clearly notable, but the "horns" pointing upwards hint to support the idea of a five piece cube.

 

[cupid dave]

Beautiful geometry.

Using the twelve "stones" of 12 triangular space where they would be set doesn't quite work in regard to being "foursquared," or "at the corners, at all fours," but still, the attempt to align the breastplate with a squared design is interesting, indeed.

When it comes to using the triangle as a means of grometrically spacing the twelve circles you show here, that idea seems to fit better with a representation of the geometry INSIDE the cube, where there are seven Faces on those triangular areas.
This geometry seems a useful hypothesis to explain what Zechariah was saying about the "capstone" in the hand of Joshua:



The "stone the builders forgot?"

(Down load this diagram. Photocopy on card stock. Cut out and fold at the dotted line between the two hexagons, so the twelve tribes form the bottom of this model. Crease the little lines between the six eyes, and squeeze there so the face rises up, 3-D, forming a Star of David design, and you too, will have the capstone in your hands!)


10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone[a] in the hand of Zerubbabel?”

 

[Adam]

A horned altar does not mean that the breastplate (a linen piece, btw, which would have hung flat which would be necessary for practicality for the person wearing it) was horned.

You are reading into the passages what you want rather than what they say.

And there certainly is no 5 pieced cube mentioned anywhere in the bible, and especially not in regard to the urim and thummim.
As was already pointed out, the five stones (also unrelated to the urim and thummim) mentioned were noted as smooth. A cube certainly could not be made from them.

 

[Adam]

Beautiful geometry.

Using the twelve "stones" of 12 triangular space where they would be set doesn't quite work in regard to being "foursquared," or "at the corners, at all fours," but still, the attempt to align the breastplate with a squared design is interesting, indeed.

When it comes to using the triangle as a means of grometrically spacing the twelve circles you show here, that idea seems to fit better with a representation of the geometry INSIDE the cube, where there are seven Faces on those triangular areas.
This geometry seems a useful hypothesis to explain what Zechariah was saying about the "capstone" in the hand of Joshua:



The "stone the builders forgot?"

(Down load this diagram, photocopy on card stock, cut out and fold so the twelve tribes form the bottom of this model and you too, will have the capstone in your hands!)


10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone[a] in the hand of Zerubbabel?”

There is no capstone. What are you selling?

 

[Adam]

Foursquared actually comes from a root that means "at the corners," or "at all fours," according to Strong's Concordance.

.

btw, foursquared does not come from a root that means "at the corners" according to Strong's Concordance.

Whatever you are trying to sell, please don't be deceptive about it.


The primitive root and related Hebrew in regard to "foursquare" is "stretched out" or "laying down."


The garment was flat.

 

[cupid dave]

28:16 Foursquare 7251 8803 it shall be [being] doubled 3717 8803; a span 2239 [shall be] the length 753 thereof, and a span 2239 [shall be] the breadth 7341 thereof.
　
　
Pronounce: raw-bah'
Foursquare 7251


Strong: H7251
Orig: a primitive root (rather identical with 7250 through the idea of sprawling "at all fours" ;
　
Strong: H7253
Orig: from 7251; a fourth (part or side):--fourth part, side, square. H7251
　
compare 702); properly, to be four (sided); used only as denominative of 7253; to be quadrate:--(four-)square(-d). H7250 H702 H7253
　
Strong: H702
Orig: masculine oarbaah \i ar-baw-aw'\i0\plain\f3\fs21\cf23 ; from 7251; four:--four.



/////

 

[Adam]

Which does not say anything about "at the corners."

Now, the related Strong's reference h7250:

1) to lie stretched out, lie down

a) (Qal)

1) to lie down

a) for repose

b) for copulation (of woman with beast)

b) (Hiphil) to cause to lay down (of cattle breeding)

 

[cupid dave]

Which does not say anything about "at the corners."

Now, the related Strong's reference h7250:

1) to lie stretched out, lie down

Yes, Strong does say foursquare, 7250, is a word..."related" to another word ,7251.

Though, yes, that is true... the actual word "foursquare"is what I am interested in.
Foursquare means "at all fours."


Pronounce: raw-bah'
Foursquare 7251
Strong: H7251
Orig: a primitive root (rather identical with 7250 through the idea of sprawling "at all fours."

Nevertheless, I do not think the breastplate actual was 3-D, with the horns as shown in my graphic for illustratiion sake.
The "square" arrangement of 12 stones would only be possible in the 2-D layout, resting flat on the chest of the High Priest, if it was formed in the geometry below:

This brings my point full circle, then, as I previously hypothesized, that the Urim and Thummim was a cube-shaped set of five geometric shapes which is actually a model, a physical rplication, for the Pattern to the Temple of our thinking.

 

[cupid dave]

Among all 14 stones and the devine name of Lord all Hebrew characters were represented.

The traditional arrangement of the 3 stones into 4 rows has always ignored the geometric fact that a square can not be formed 3X4.

The jewels were sown onto the cloth breastplate which had been doubled over leaving a pocket inside for the Ephod, a small case that held the Urim and Thummim.
Two onyx stones were swon on the shoulders of that little sack.

The only way this breastplate could be foursquare, holding the stones "at all fours" is a shown below:

Of course, this geometry is the shadow of the 3-D cube shaped Urim and Thummim which is to be found inside the ephod, which is behind the "curious" foursquare breastplate, in the doubled over fold of the clothe used to make it "cunningly."

 

[Adam]

So.... you came to the conclusion that the urim and thummim is a set of 5 stones because of the phrase "at all fours."

That's hardly coming "full circle."



BTW, there are a number of ways that you can lay 12 stones, including 3x4 that will fit inside of a square, providing that there is no requirement (which there is none given in the scripture) that the stones be equidistant.

 

[stovebolts]

Cupid,

2 things.

1. How would a rigid cube be formed with the materials that God commanded the breastplate to be made with?
2. How come I don't find anything about the breastplate that your describing from any Jewish sites?

 

[cupid dave]

BTW, there are a number of ways that you can lay 12 stones, including 3x4 that will fit inside of a square, providing that there is no requirement (which there is none given in the scripture) that the stones be equidistant.

Of course, we could just draw a square aound anything.

But such reasoning would still make us wonder why a square when the rectangle would be so natural.
The square is a "curious" and specific choice, indeed.

Nevertheless, we know that this "curious" breastplate was made "cunningly", and hence not so simple as that.

It is not unreasonable that we might entertain what I have suggested so far as a possible example of cunningness.
To go further, we remember that the names of the twelve tribes were scribed upon the stones, too.

When we read about the camp of the Hebrews, around the Tabernacle, where the Levites would set up their tents, we see reinforcement for this foursquare breastplate again, with the square hole in the center:

And, the land assigned to those Levites who would be surrounded by the other twelve tribes, replicating their positions around the empty center square was also square in area:

Superimposing the proposed idea of this cube shaped Urim and Thummim over the geometry of the curious breastplate and then again, Tabernacle layout is related to the reasoning that suggests the Urim and Thummim concerns a pattern. That we now understand the brain to be a pattern seeking mechanism is making the point here, that this cube with its "curious" pattern has something to do with ho we think.

We find that the Jews were taught, (mindlessly perhaps), to tie a small cube to their forehead when praying, (the tefillin).
These cubes add support to the connections I am making here, however tenuous one may consider them to be.
But my hypothesis here is that the Urim and Thummim reveals a pattern to the way we mentally relate to the pattern in Nature.
By such a pattern to our own thinking, we develop the mental image which describes to us the Truth about the Reality which lies external to us.

It is in this process of using this pattern" that we "divine" the facts-of-Life, or the will of God, i.e.; by Urim and thimmim

 

[Adam]

There is no reason to assume these shapes. They are not suggested either implicitly or expllicitly.

If you had discovered some pattern that allowed you to "divine" the facts of life, you would have already been given the knowledge that your emphasis on the word "cunningly" puts a false context there and you would refrain from making such expressions, especially since the word is not "cunningly", but is "cunning" which is a different intent entirely.


Among the spiritual gifts is discernment. It is a spiritual gift, and there need be no physical manifestation in order to receive or understand this gift. The possession of discernment is what allows people like me to see that you are turning objects into idols and have gained no insight by doing so.

I suggest you stop wasting your time on things placed in the box of numerology, astrology, vain repetitions, ect. and turn your attention back to God.

 

[cupid dave]

Cupid,

2 things.

1. How would a rigid cube be formed with the materials that God commanded the breastplate to be made with?
2. How come I don't find anything about the breastplate that your describing from any Jewish sites?

1) The five pieces would have been made like jewelry, using gold and/or silver/brass, copper...



4 And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the Lord commanded, saying,
5 Take ye from among you an offering unto the Lord: whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the Lord; gold, and silver, and brass,





I am no Bezaleell, but I made a replica using copper which is shown below:

2) How come...?

Because the Jews in the time of Moses were full of understanding which was soon lost.
They lost the Urim and Thummim, the breast plate, the Tefillin, the Book of Deuteronomy, the Ark, the Temple, and even the lanuage of Hebrew which had to be revived in the 19th century.


The reason this is all coming out now is because it is the end times:



Joel 2:28
And afterwards? Afterwards I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and daughters will be prophets. Your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men see visions;

 

[stovebolts]

1) The five pieces would have been made like jewelry, using gold and/or silver/brass, copper...



4 And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the Lord commanded, saying,
5 Take ye from among you an offering unto the Lord: whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the Lord; gold, and silver, and brass,

Without looking it up, I believe the passage you are quoting is in regard to the materials used to construct the Tabernacle and it's furnishings.

Here is what the ephod and breastplate were to made of.

Exodus 28:6-28 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and purple, scarlet, and fine twined linen, the work of the skilful workman. It shall have two shoulder-pieces joined to the two ends thereof, that it may be joined together. And the skilfully woven band, which is upon it, wherewith to gird it on, shall be like the work thereof and of the same piece; of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen. And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel: six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the six that remain on the other stone, according to their birth. With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones, according to the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be inclosed in settings of gold. And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulder-pieces of the ephod, to be stones of memorial for the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before Jehovah upon his two shoulders for a memorial. And thou shalt make settings of gold, and two chains of pure gold; like cords shalt thou make them, of wreathen work: and thou shalt put the wreathen chains on the settings. And thou shalt make a breastplate of judgment, the work of the skilful workman; like the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, shalt thou make it. Foursquare it shall be and double; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span the breadth thereof. And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, four rows of stones: a row of sardius, topaz, and carbuncle shall be the first row; and the second row an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond; and the third row a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst; and the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be inclosed in gold in their settings. And the stones shall be according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names; like the engravings of a signet, every one according to his name, they shall be for the twelve tribes. And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains like cords, of wreathen work of pure gold. And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate. And thou shalt put the two wreathen chains of gold in the two rings at the ends of the breastplate. And the other two ends of the two wreathen chains thou shalt put on the two settings, and put them on the shoulder-pieces of the ephod in the forepart thereof. And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate, upon the edge thereof, which is toward the side of the ephod inward. And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and shalt put them on the two shoulder-pieces of the ephod underneath, in the forepart thereof, close by the coupling thereof, above the skilfully woven band of the ephod. And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be upon the skilfully woven band of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.

 

[cupid dave]

There is no reason to assume these shapes. They are not suggested either implicitly or expllicitly.

If you had discovered some pattern that allowed you to "divine" the facts of life, you would have already been given the knowledge that your emphasis on the word "cunningly" puts a false context there and you would refrain from making such expressions, especially since the word is not "cunningly", but is "cunning" which is a different intent entirely.


Among the spiritual gifts is discernment. It is a spiritual gift, and there need be no physical manifestation in order to receive or understand this gift. The possession of discernment is what allows people like me to see that you are turning objects into idols and have gained no insight by doing so.

I suggest you stop wasting your time on things placed in the box of numerology, astrology, vain repetitions, ect. and turn your attention back to God.

Well, sure.
People like you have always thought that they did God a service when they repressed ideas and warned others that knowledge was a dangerous thing, somehow.
This explains why, today, these questions and hypothesis are still unaddressed by the very Bible people who ought fear the Lord, not dispise his words as dangerous.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

This kind of fear mongering about numeriology, astroloy, and vain repetitions (whatever that is), has been the way honest investigators have always been attack, first verbally, and then, with action that forced them to be silent or face the rack.

To distinguish the research and discussions I have presented, so far, you may remember that I drew your attention to the study and theological reseach of the religious Jews who rekindled ideas starting just 800 years ago, things known to them and their people from the depths of Judaism.

They seem to have recognized that the knowledge the Lord refers to is about Thinking.

If one were to review this thread, one would find that my general idea concerns how man thinks.

That has been the thrust of explaining why there was the Urim and Thummim to hint the way for us to find Truth, (i.e. Christ: John 14:6).
I also see the analogy between this device that was to be an ancient mediator between the High Priest and God, in those days of Moses, and its analogy with Christ, for us now, as the living Urim and Thummim, the mediator between Christians and God, today.


As far as the wisdom of advising people to avoid discussing Bible topics which you fear will raise ideas you never thought about and would repress, on the grounds that the virgin soil of such investigation may be dangerous to your own preconceived and private interpretations, I remind of the Reformation, where the Church authorities in 1600 thought they, too, served God in keeping the bible silent on some matters.

We Protestants were wesaring the same shoe then that I clothe my presentations in now.

 

[Adam]

I encourage learning. It is apparent that I am quite educated, a result of my own position that a wealth of knowledge is preferable to wild guesses.

Knowledge is never dangerous and ideas are always welcome until they go against the evidence to the point that the ideas reveal themselves to be baseless.


Your picture, for example, is not what you represent it to be. It comes from a manuscript written by a Christian (a Trinitarian Mystic with a Hebraist focus, to be more exact). It is not Jewish, nor is it 800 years old. It is also not in regard to thinking. It is a sketch in regard to the beard, not the brain.


BTW, i have never advised against discussing any topics. We can discuss any topic all day long to your heart's content. My beliefs are in no danger because we are not even discussing the bible at this point. We are discussing YOUR private invention, external to what the bible says or implies.

You are projecting, now. It isn't me who is being stubborn and repressive. You have a pet theory which you want to be true so you avoid, ignore or manipulate the facts so you don't have to acknowledge that your belief in this matter has no grounding in reality.

Discussing ideas is much different than worshipping them as gods.


I assume you obsess over making the perfect model for your ideas under the misquided perception that you are actually making the real thing. Again, I advise you that the work of men's hands neither see, hear, eat, smell or speak. This object is part of an illness and puts distance between you and God.