Christian Calvanism

[Scotth1960]

1. Psa 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
How can a dead man chose God?

2. Exactly - IF God chose based upon your goodness then you'd be the author of your salvation and deserve some of the glory.

3. God does what he pleases - Can God do wrong?
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

4. And what is so bad about this?
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

5. If they could fall away then it would show that they were not in Christ in the first place and that they were counting on something they did or would not do for salvation. How do you explain:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Now - while we are at this would you mind commenting on:
"The greatest and most fruitful missionaries - Paton, Carey, etc. were Calvinistic in their theology.
The greatest and most fruitful Puritan writers or any Christian writers - Owen, Watson, Bunyan, Boston, etc. were Calvinistic in their theology.
The greatest and most fruitful evangelists and preachers - Whitfield, Spurgeon, Edwards, Newton, etc. were Calvinistic in their theology."

I understand this short post will not convince or was very thorough but I felt led to post anyway.

God bless

Friends, The Bible does teach predestination, but not Calvinism. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[reba]

Dear Reba, From beginning to end, salvation in Christ is God's work. It does not come to us against free will. God wants us to choose Him, and to do that, we must have free will.
Anthony Coniaris writes:
Salvation is not static but dynamic, it is not a completed stated, a state of having arrived ... but a constant moving ... toward becoming like Christ, toward receiving the fullness of God's life ... It can never be achieved fully in this life".
Anthony Coniaris, Introducing the Orthodox Church. Light and Life Publishing Company, Minneapolis, MN, 1982; p. 48.

God save us all. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

These scriptures say what they say. Just as John 3;16 does some how my thought must fit His.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

 

[dadof10]

Friend, Who cares? That is not a charitable view, is it? Servetus surely cares. Don't misunderstand, I am not advocating the views on theology of Servetus. I just don't think heretics should be burned, or anyone else for that matter. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

You're missing the point, Scott. Pick your favorite theologian. Is he/she a sinner? Has this person committed sin? I assume the answer is "yes". Does that disqualify his doctrinal teachings? What if you found out that he was an adulterer, for instance. Would you reject everything he taught and convert to Buddhism? The personal sin of an individual, while scandalous, does not DQ his teaching.

The Church Christ founded is built on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not on any individual theologian or group of teachers. He guides His CHURCH as a whole. Read Acts 15.

 

[reba]

Friends, The Bible does teach predestination, but not Calvinism. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

I just saw the above..... From the little i know of Calvinism sorta the same thing

could be said of any preacher or teacher etc. Kinda like this .... the Bible teaches salvation but not Billy Grahmism....

Again i have never studied Calvins works.

Romans 3:10 in my head says man is depraved

Eph 1 speaks of His will in our salvation


Joh here tells me just how save and saved i m in Him not just once but twice..
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.


Been a long day i will get to the others later....

 

[Scotth1960]

You're missing the point, Scott. Pick your favorite theologian. Is he/she a sinner? Has this person committed sin? I assume the answer is "yes". Does that disqualify his doctrinal teachings? What if you found out that he was an adulterer, for instance. Would you reject everything he taught and convert to Buddhism? The personal sin of an individual, while scandalous, does not DQ his teaching.

The Church Christ founded is built on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not on any individual theologian or group of teachers. He guides His CHURCH as a whole. Read Acts 15.

Dear dadof10. True. It is just a question of whether one needs to be a Calvinist in order to be a Christian. If God guides the CHURCH as a whole, He guides those who are non-Calvinist. If Calvinism can be shown to be a heresy, it is no part of the CHURCH that Christ founded. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS see: http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

 

[dadof10]

Dear dadof10. True. It is just a question of whether one needs to be a Calvinist in order to be a Christian. If God guides the CHURCH as a whole, He guides those who are non-Calvinist. If Calvinism can be shown to be a heresy, it is no part of the CHURCH that Christ founded. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS see: http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

True? Then why all the "Calvin was a murderer" smack?

I'm not a Calvinist. I'm Catholic. I think that double-predestination is a horrible doctrine and Calvin was a heretic. However, I hate the doctrine on it's merits alone not on any virtue or vice of it's leading proponent. All this sensationalism just gets in the way of real debate.

 

[Sam21]

Man apart from God's help through Christ is not able to attain the righteousness that is required by God in order to be saved,however if man were totally depraved then he would not be unable to do ANYTHING good, we could not even tie our shoes or brush our teeth or drive a car. God told Cornelius that He had noticed the GOOD WORKS of Cornelius before the man came to Christ,if Cornelius was totally depraved and unable to even make a righteous decision then how did the man do all those good works?
Human beings apart from God can and do make righteous decisions, so we are able to decide for or against Christ. So the premise that man is so totally depraved that he is unable to make a righteous choice is ridiculous, we have the knowledge of good and evil and we can good well chose which one we want. God told Cain,"IF you do well you will be accepted", Cain had the ability to know good from evil and the ability to chose.

 

[Hitch]

Man apart from God's help through Christ is not able to attain the righteousness that is required by God in order to be saved,however if man were totally depraved then he would not be unable to do ANYTHING good, we could not even tie our shoes or brush our teeth or drive a car. God told Cornelius that He had noticed the GOOD WORKS of Cornelius before the man came to Christ,if Cornelius was totally depraved and unable to even make a righteous decision then how did the man do all those good works?
Human beings apart from God can and do make righteous decisions, so we are able to decide for or against Christ. So the premise that man is so totally depraved that he is unable to make a righteous choice is ridiculous, we have the knowledge of good and evil and we can good well chose which one we want. God told Cain,"IF you do well you will be accepted", Cain had the ability to know good from evil and the ability to chose.

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


Some will say well thats OT and,,, Ok;'

Matthew 7:17-18, "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."


Tieing shoes is not in view here, but rather the ability to please God.

 

[mondar]

Dear dadof10. True. It is just a question of whether one needs to be a Calvinist in order to be a Christian. If God guides the CHURCH as a whole, He guides those who are non-Calvinist. If Calvinism can be shown to be a heresy, it is no part of the CHURCH that Christ founded. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS see: http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

True? Then why all the "Calvin was a murderer" smack?

I'm not a Calvinist. I'm Catholic. I think that double-predestination is a horrible doctrine and Calvin was a heretic. However, I hate the doctrine on it's merits alone not on any virtue or vice of it's leading proponent. All this sensationalism just gets in the way of real debate.

dadof10, I appreciate two things.
First, you hit the nail on the head when you said about these guys talking "smack." I dont know if you know this, but many of them are the "Jack Chick" brand of radical fundamentalists.

Second, I am aware that the council of Trent brands Calvinists heretics and that from the usual Roman Catholic position I am a heretic. However, I hope you don't have to dwell on that too much in any conversations we might have.

 

[dadof10]

dadof10, I appreciate two things.
First, you hit the nail on the head when you said about these guys talking "smack." I dont know if you know this, but many of them are the "Jack Chick" brand of radical fundamentalists.

Second, I am aware that the council of Trent brands Calvinists heretics and that from the usual Roman Catholic position I am a heretic. However, I hope you don't have to dwell on that too much in any conversations we might have.

Mondar, have I ever?

This is the definition of Heretic:

1: a dissenter from established religious dogma; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth

2: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine :

Heretic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

By the first definition, Calvin was a heretic, by the second, you are to me and I to you. You have "accepted belief or doctrine" that I "dissent" from, which makes me a heretic...technically.

I have no problem with the word, I've been called much worse, but a lot of people do. I usually don't use it except for expediency, which is the case here.

BTW, I would never call you a heretic. Not to your face anyway.

 

[mondar]

Mondar, have I ever?

No, you have never called me a heretic. For that I thank you.... : ).

While some person might think what I believe to be heretical, I can appreciate polite restraint in conversation. You do not feel the necessity to come into a conversation and wave the term "heretic" all over the boards when referring to me, or to Calvinists in general.

This is the definition of Heretic:

1: a dissenter from established religious dogma; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth

2: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine :

Heretic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

By the first definition, Calvin was a heretic, by the second, you are to me and I to you. You have "accepted belief or doctrine" that I "dissent" from, which makes me a heretic...technically.

I have no problem with the word, I've been called much worse, but a lot of people do. I usually don't use it except for expediency, which is the case here.

BTW, I would never call you a heretic. Not to your face anyway.

LOL, I guess I can appreciate that.

 

[Scotth1960]

I take it Scott you are refusing to asnwer yes or no with respect to have you read Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. Is that correct?

Dear Hitch, Forgive me if I was angry at the rhetoric on this site. I need to calm down and re-group. We are unlikely to change minds about this controversial topic. Someone will produce Bible texts that they say support "Calvinism". Go figure. Another person will produce an equal amount of Bible texts that they say are against Calvinism, such as 2 Peter 3:9. That one verse alone should tell people God does not will the destruction of any sinner.
In any case, it should come down to proper exegesis of Scripture. Someone quoted Psalm 39:5 in the KJV. I believe a more accurate version of the original is Psalm 38:6 in the OSB. The Psalm numbering from the LXX Greek OT Septuagint differs from the numbering of the Hebrew-KJV Psalms. The KJV exaggerates. In the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), this Psalm reads, "Behold, You make my days as a handbreadth, And my existence is as nothing before You: But all things are vanity, and every man living. (Pause)." Not quite the drastic language of the KJV. Life is vain without God, but man does not live in vain when he lives in (with) God. Man is still in "the image and likeness of God" (Genesis 1:26-27). Man was blessed by God, in spite of the fact that man later sinned. God provided a solution (promised salvation in Christ) (Genesis 3:15). Man is now no longer completely vain, because Christ in His humanity and His divinity redeems every man every woman every child who believeth in Him (John 3:16).

By the way, Hitch, I am reading the ICR. Institutes of the Christian Religion. It does not teach (I CHECKED) the FILIOQUE. But Calvin, TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, did believe in or support the Filioque. I shall have to do a GOOGLE search, John Calvin and the Filioque.
God bless you. Please don't say things to me like "bug off" any more. No offense, you just need to follow the rules of this forum about inappropriate language. Personal attacks are not acceptable. True?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Eventide]

Re: False understanding of election

Hello to everybody.

Does any christian here believe or hold Calvanistic views?

I have little experience with Calvanism, other than the written works are quite thick ;)

My basic understanding is that Calvanist views show that humans have no freewill, and that god has already chosen the path of each and every person regardless of their actions or love of Jesus. Is this over simplified? (I'm almost positive it is!). Can anyone give me a better understanding?

Thanks!

Dear guest,

Calvinisim (named after the man John Calvin) is based upon a faulty system of ELECTION. Calvinism claims that some of Adam's race are Unconditionally Elected by God whereas the others are not, and that they have no chance at all of being saved by the precious shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Calvinism claims that these Unconditionally Elected ones are what the scriptures refer to as the 'elect'.. and that is its false basis.

According to the scriptures, all are condemned in Adam and all can be justified freely in Christ, who is the last Adam, and the one who is the elect.

The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the elect of God, the Chosen One in whom He delights, and all are chosen IN HIM, after they trust in Him, after they hear the gospel, and after they believe. (See Matt 12:18, Isaiah 42, and Eph 1:13)

 

[stranger]

Re: False understanding of election

Dear guest,

Calvinisim (named after the man John Calvin) is based upon a faulty system of ELECTION. Calvinism claims that some of Adam's race are Unconditionally Elected by God whereas the others are not, and that they have no chance at all of being saved by the precious shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Calvinism claims that these Unconditionally Elected ones are what the scriptures refer to as the 'elect'.. and that is its false basis.

According to the scriptures, all are condemned in Adam and all can be justified freely in Christ, who is the last Adam, and the one who is the elect.

The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the elect of God, the Chosen One in whom He delights, and all are chosen IN HIM, after they trust in Him, after they hear the gospel, and after they believe. (See Matt 12:18, Isaiah 42, and Eph 1:13)

Hi Eventide,

Calvinist find an order of salvation in passages like Romans Romans 8:29-34 (New International Version, ©2010)

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

From this there is an order in which salvation is affected: foreknew, predestined, called, justified etc. At the point of called the man hears the gospel. The activities of foreknowing and predestining have to do with God. It would be hard to argue against this. What happens though, if you don't mind me saying, is that salvation is broken into parts at the expense of the whole. The parts are not mutually exclusive of one another so God can retain His sovereignty without depriving man of his responsibility.

 

[Eventide]

Re: False understanding of election

Hi Eventide,

Calvinist find an order of salvation in passages like Romans Romans 8:29-34 (New International Version, ©2010)

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Do you believe that God foreknew the wicked as well, and determined their destiny beforehand..?

From this there is an order in which salvation is affected: foreknew, predestined, called, justified etc. At the point of called the man hears the gospel. The activities of foreknowing and predestining have to do with God. It would be hard to argue against this. What happens though, if you don't mind me saying, is that salvation is broken into parts at the expense of the whole. The parts are not mutually exclusive of one another so God can retain His sovereignty without depriving man of his responsibility.

I notice that you didn't actually address my comments concerning election.. so allow me to ask you this..

Why do you believe that God chose YOU when He plainly says that if ye shall seek to save your life that ye shall lose it.. and that if any man shall come after Me, let him DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross and follow Me..

Are you exempt from this ?

 

[stranger]

Re: False understanding of election

Do you believe that God foreknew the wicked as well, and determined their destiny beforehand..?



I notice that you didn't actually address my comments concerning election.. so allow me to ask you this..

Why do you believe that God chose YOU when He plainly says that if ye shall seek to save your life that ye shall lose it.. and that if any man shall come after Me, let him DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross and follow Me..

Are you exempt from this ?

Hi Eventide,

Since God knows those that are His, he would 'presumably' also know those who are not His. I say this as a deduction or inference such as you will find on an apologetic forum.

I'm not exempt and believe that crucifixion of the flesh unto death is necessary before we enter into Kingdom of God.

Why do I believe that God chose 'me'? If I were 'in His rest' I would have the internal witness of the Holy Spirit' saying I am a child of God. Presently I don't make that claim.

 

[Eventide]

Re: False understanding of election

Hi Eventide,

Since God knows those that are His, he would 'presumably' also know those who are not His. I say this as a deduction or inference such as you will find on an apologetic forum.

So the point is that God foreknew and predetermined their end as well.. corporately.. just like He did for those who do believe Him and are declared righteous.. it doesn't necessarily mean that He selected specific individuals as Calvinism teaches.

I'm not exempt and believe that crucifixion of the flesh unto death is necessary before we enter into Kingdom of God.

So you're no different than anyone else.. FLESH gives birth to flesh and yours is just as condemned as mine.

Why do I believe that God chose 'me'? If I were 'in His rest' I would have the internal witness of the Holy Spirit' saying I am a child of God. Presently I don't make that claim.

You're not saved ? Is that what you're saying ? Or you just don't know it ?

 

[stranger]

Re: False understanding of election

So the point is that God foreknew and predetermined their end as well.. corporately.. just like He did for those who do believe Him and are declared righteous.. it doesn't necessarily mean that He selected specific individuals as Calvinism teaches.

So you're no different than anyone else.. FLESH gives birth to flesh and yours is just as condemned as mine.

You're not saved ? Is that what you're saying ? Or you just don't know it ?

The tread isn't about me.

The point I do want to make is that Romans 8:29,30 refers ONLY to those who are saved. Now if you are talking about those who are not saved, this verse doesn't mention them.

While Calvinist are happy to talk about corporate 'in Christ or in Adam' scripture sometimes refers to individuals. The body of Christ is corporate but we are individual members of it. So while I'm not a Calvinist I don't see that they are doing anything wrong here. Do you want to talk about individuals in scripture?

 

[Eventide]

Re: False understanding of election

The tread isn't about me.

Nobody said it was..

 

[Scotth1960]

Re: reply

Curious, If I were you I wouldn't be bothered by what Calvinism is or not. You see, John Calvin can't save or any human for that matter. There is only one way to get into heaven, and that way is through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Salvation should be simple as pie. Please don't complicate it by listening to all the world's to all the world's solutions to have eternal life. Listen to the one who can save you, and He is Jesus Christ. He loved you so much that He died on a cross for the forgiveness of your sins and others. But the choice is yours to make. Think about it, do you really want to go to hell because you are afraid to make a decision. You could even die tomorrow, without making Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior. Are you ready to make that decision now? If so, say the following prayer with me.

Dear Heavenly Father, I come to You in the name of Jesus. Your Word says, him that cometh to Me, I will in no way cast out, but you take me in and I thank You for it. Your Word says, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I am calling on Your name, so I know You have saved me now.

You also said, if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I believe in my heart Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I believe that He was raised from the dead for my justification, and I confess Him now as my Lord, and I do believe with my heart, I have become the righteousness of God in Christ, AND FINALLY I AM SAVED!!!! Thank You Lord.



May God bless, Golfjack

Amen. Calvinism contradicts the NT Scriptures. Christ's atonement is not limited. It's unlimited. He is the expiation not just for the sins of the elect, but the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington