I have never studied Calvin's works. I tried but over my head in a flash.... I dont know how much of a clavinist i am.
Mean folks come in all sizes and shapes from the RCC to WoF. Maybe you do not see your own venom most often we dont.
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I have never studied Calvin's works. I tried but over my head in a flash.... I dont know how much of a clavinist i am.
Mean folks come in all sizes and shapes from the RCC to WoF. Maybe you do not see your own venom most often we dont.
H
Hitch
Guest
This meanie is out for a smoke and glass of wine. :waving
Scotth1960
Member
Dear Reba, Get real. We are to confess our sins to God and to the Church, not to the whole world. What would be the point. The whole world wants to bring Christians down. I am not looking for the sins of others, why should others be looking for my sins. Calvin's errors are in the public record, and those who follow the Reformers stand against truth. They follow sola scriptura, which was not taught by the Church Fathers. At least you are kind to me. People are trying to make me into something I am not. I am a friend to all. Just because I disagree with what Calvin taught and did does not make me an enemy of the Calvinists. They are the ones who are calling me enemy. Some Calvinists are not quite so harsh as others. My dear father and mother belonged to a Calvinist church, so I know many good people who are really going to be with the LORD. Undoubtedly, and anyway, only God could say otherwise. I judge no Calvinist. Would that Calvinists would stop judging me. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
PS May God forgive me for my sins; that is my public confession.
I have sinned greatly against God and His laws.
We all are sinners. Yes we are to confess to Him. Scott that includes John Calvin. He does not owe us a written opology any more than you owe one to me. There are writtings of Calvin which appiear to say he did not repent. We dont know his heart. His writtings were clouded by the politics of the day he may of had his reasons. Who here has said Calvin did not order , or have something to do with the death of Servetus.
See we all are totaly depraved. including John Clavin and me We are saved by Grace. you me and John Clavin
Scotth1960
Member
Dear Hitch, I am finished discussing Calvinism with you. There will be no good result for either of us. You continue your error or ad hominem attacks against me. It is wrong to put things in personal terms. I am not attacking you personally. Just disagreeing with Calvinism. I am given grace by God to do that. Things that should not be discussed on CF should be
Roman Catholicism versus Protestantism
Roman Catholicism versus Eastern Orthodoxy
Calvinism versus Arminianism
Infant baptism versus believers (adults) only baptism
pre tribulation rapture verse post tribulation rapture
I believe nobody has convinced anybody else to change positions/views/doctrines
based on Scripture.
Calvinism doesn't justify your presenting your case as an attack against me personally, and questioning me as a man. You are totally out of line in making this an argument about personality (personalities). Discuss doctrines dispassionately and with charity from the Scripture, making no reference to ourselves as persons, thank you.
Sincerely,
Scott R. Harrington Erie PA PS For what it's worth, and I mean this, don't take this as an attack: God bless you.
I am disagreeing with Calvinism, not attacking people who are Calvinists, please understand the difference.
Scotth1960
Member
God bless you Reba. AMEN. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That is the amazing grace of God in Christ. In Erie PA Scott Harrington PS I would say that we are totally deprived, not totally depraved. At his worst, man is still created in the image and likeness of God. So man's sin is not infinite. But a finite number of sins can lead souls into perdition. We all need God's mercy if we are going to be saved from our sins. God save us. God have mercy on me; my sins are many.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
H
Hitch
Guest
You re on .Originally Posted by Scotth1960
Dear Hitch, How is this for a dare. Go and find for yourself what Calvin wrote about Servetus, and why Calvin had him murdered. Should we be having such men as our Bible teachers? Men who burn people at the stake? How does Calvin defend this move? What about the Golden Rule? Would Calvin have wanted Servetus to have burned Calvin at the stake?
Scott
Let me know when you start, I'll start the same week .
Scotth1960
Member
Dear Hitch, ISTM, no Christian should name a system of theology after a man. After no other man than Christ Jesus. Our theology should be merely Christian (cf. C.S. Lewis, "Mere Christianity"). If we can take it apart, and can't put it back together based on an unbiased, pure-hearted reading of the NT, then we should reject every "tradition of men" that comes along. All of the great Reformation systems of theology are named after men, why is that, if they come from God?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
H
Hitch
Guest
Scott You re on .Originally Posted by Scotth1960
Dear Hitch, How is this for a dare. Go and find for yourself what Calvin wrote about Servetus, and why Calvin had him murdered. Should we be having such men as our Bible teachers? Men who burn people at the stake? How does Calvin defend this move? What about the Golden Rule? Would Calvin have wanted Servetus to have burned Calvin at the stake?
Let me know when you start, I'll start the same week .
You and I have nothing else to talk about. Man up to the challenge you made or formally withdraw.
dadof10
Member
Scotth1960
Member
Dear Hitch, Do you want me for some reason to read the Institutes of the Christian Religion. If I do, how do I know whether or not Calvin has contradicted himself in his other writings without reading all of his published works? I am not assuming that he did, but I can't be sure that he didn't. From what I have read from those who have read Calvin, some theologians say that Calvin may have changed his mind some time about some issues. Okay, I'll read the ICR if you will read what Calvin said about Servetus. You should not put things in bullying terms and in terms of animosity. Calvin, however, does not need to be endorsed by every Bible-believing Christian. Why defend a man? We need to defend the NT, not particular individuals. We should not be online to defend ourselves, but to defend faith in Jesus Christ. That may not be Calvinism, it hasn't been proven by anyone here that Calvinism is synonymous with NT Christianity. In Erie PA Scott HarringtonScott You re on .
Let me know when you start, I'll start the same week .
You and I have nothing else to talk about. Man up to the challenge you made or formally withdraw.
H
Hitch
Guest
No fair playing by the rules like that Dad...
Scotth1960
Member
Dear Reba, From beginning to end, salvation in Christ is God's work. It does not come to us against free will. God wants us to choose Him, and to do that, we must have free will.
Anthony Coniaris writes:
Salvation is not static but dynamic, it is not a completed stated, a state of having arrived ... but a constant moving ... toward becoming like Christ, toward receiving the fullness of God's life ... It can never be achieved fully in this life".
Anthony Coniaris, Introducing the Orthodox Church. Light and Life Publishing Company, Minneapolis, MN, 1982; p. 48.
God save us all. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
dadof10
Member
Hitch,
I think it's pretty much common knowledge that the Geneva Council (under Calvin) had Michael Servetus burned at the stake for heresy. I don't know any Calvinist apologist who disputes this. That being said....Who cares?
Even if Calvin gave the order directly or lit the torch himself, what does that have to do with the truth of his theology? We are talking about sin here, right? Calvin was a sinner, yes. So was EVERY OTHER CHURCH LEADER, THEOLOGIAN, DOCTOR, ETC. Are they all wrong? What makes Calvin's sin greater than anyone else's...mine, for instance? Judging the "sins" of theologians before deciding whether their doctrines are sound is a silly way to discern doctrinal truth. Besides, usually the people who involve themselves in this undertaking are trying to remove the speck from YOUR eye while ignoring the plank in their own. They ignore or explain away the sins of their own side.
Now, I know someone's going to throw "by their fruits ye shall know them" out there and try and stretch the meaning to cover doctrine. Let's get it out of the way.
The verse is not talking about doctrine, it's referring SPECIFICALLY to prophets, their "fruit" being the truth of their prophecies.
Jesus sent His Holy Spirit upon His Church, not any individual members, so even though these members sin (and they all do) the Truth can be assured. It's never contingent upon the sanctity of it's members, but the sanctity of the Holy Spirit.
I think it's pretty much common knowledge that the Geneva Council (under Calvin) had Michael Servetus burned at the stake for heresy. I don't know any Calvinist apologist who disputes this. That being said....Who cares?
Even if Calvin gave the order directly or lit the torch himself, what does that have to do with the truth of his theology? We are talking about sin here, right? Calvin was a sinner, yes. So was EVERY OTHER CHURCH LEADER, THEOLOGIAN, DOCTOR, ETC. Are they all wrong? What makes Calvin's sin greater than anyone else's...mine, for instance? Judging the "sins" of theologians before deciding whether their doctrines are sound is a silly way to discern doctrinal truth. Besides, usually the people who involve themselves in this undertaking are trying to remove the speck from YOUR eye while ignoring the plank in their own. They ignore or explain away the sins of their own side.
Now, I know someone's going to throw "by their fruits ye shall know them" out there and try and stretch the meaning to cover doctrine. Let's get it out of the way.
The verse is not talking about doctrine, it's referring SPECIFICALLY to prophets, their "fruit" being the truth of their prophecies.
Jesus sent His Holy Spirit upon His Church, not any individual members, so even though these members sin (and they all do) the Truth can be assured. It's never contingent upon the sanctity of it's members, but the sanctity of the Holy Spirit.
H
Hitch
Guest
Then read them all instead of pretending yo kow what you so louldly complain about
LOL Dont whine, You made a challenge of your own volition, stand up or stand down but dont whine
Scott You re on .
Let me know when you start, I'll start the same week .
You and I have nothing else to talk about. Man up to the challenge you made or formally withdraw.
Scotth1960
Member
Dear Hitch, I will have to see if Calvin uses the term "predestined to hell" or "predestined to sin" in the ICR. If YOU have read that book, you should not just be playing games with me, and why can't you tell me what the ICR says about this?
True, Calvin could be correct in his theology even while burning Servetus. But if he is wrong in one way, who is to say he is not wrong in another? Actually, it is fair to say, if Calvin said "and the Son", then, according to the historic Church, he is semi-Sabellian. I believe I have said many times in CF that the historic Christian Church preaches against the FILIOQUE. And Calvinism is Augustinian error in this error, is FILIOQUISM. If you read John 15:26, you will see Christ does not say "AND THE SON". So Calvin's theology is semi-Sabellian, and therefore defective. Take care. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
Scotth1960
Member
Friend, Who cares? That is not a charitable view, is it? Servetus surely cares. Don't misunderstand, I am not advocating the views on theology of Servetus. I just don't think heretics should be burned, or anyone else for that matter. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
H
Hitch
Guest
Scott You re on .
Let me know when you start, I'll start the same week .
You and I have nothing else to talk about. Man up to the challenge you made or formally withdraw.
Scotth1960
Member
Dear Hitch,
Perhaps you and I should both read the ICR at the same time. As for the Servetus thing, the point is probably moot. You are not likely to find any apology from Calvin, go figure. Something unjustifiable cannot be justified. Calvin could have been burned by the Roman Catholics, and the Calvinists could have burned the Roman Catholics. There was a lot of burning going on in the 16th century. Today, people we think are heretics are no longer burned by anyone. So the point is probably moot, I grant you. It still remains, why would any Christian need to call himself a "Calvinist" or an "Arminian" when these are just 2 limited, man-made schemes? In Erie Scott