Christian Tolerance?

[Tina]

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In my conversations with PR, she has advocated that while Muslims and Christians both worship God the father, she feels Muslims are neglecting the Role of Jesus(AS) in Divinity, and thus are not believers and subject to the same punishments of any infidel.

I thought Muslims don't regard God (Allah) as "Father" ....

The confusion arises from the concept of the trinity, which is even confusing to christians.

There's nothing confusing about the simple concept of Trinity except for what Anti-Trinitarians like Muslims make out of it !

As a matter of fact, I can also say the same about the Islamic concept of "Tawhid" (Oneness of God) ... The word "Tawhid" is found nowhere in the Quran. Strangely, the Quran says that it will be Jesus (not Allah), Who will return from heaven to judge people.


Hadith 4:658
Allah’s apostle said, ‘How will you be when the son of Mary descends amongst you and he will judge people by the law of the Koran and not by the law of the gospels?â€

Hadith 3:425
Allah’s apostle said “By Him in whose hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig.


I wonder how the "Oneness of God (Tawhid) " concept fits in with Islam in light of above ... And yet Muslims dare to come to Christian forums and argue against Trinity !

 

[watchman F]

Sometimes, I'll PM a fellow Christian to tame themselves more. It might be a good idea to bring Yaqub up to speed via PM's. With a little less aggressive offense and a strong defense, he could make his points with them same dignity you do. He has it in him, but by introducing himself the way he did, he sort of set himself up.


During the past year I have tried and tried again to discover what it is about Christianity that allows such as those who have no regard for Godliness. Time after time my attempts at civility were thrown in my face in contemptuous manner. Today, I visited this forum and the first thing I saw was the bit about ours not being the God of Abraham. Here it was again. Always with a reason which defies logic. It was too much for me.

Should I give up trying to understand these people who throw so many rocks in the name of God? No. That would not be right. I had abandoned the former gentle manner which is my normal style for a more direct one hoping to gain a better understanding. But no. There is none to be had.

Assalamu to you brother. I shall try to be more accepting of others.

Yaqub

How can Christians put behind them what has happened, when Muslims attack and kill them daily. Muslims kill as many Christians as they can everyday throughout the world. Just how civil should we be while Muslims kill us everyday? We share with you what we know as a matter of fact, and do we get any thanks? No, we only get insults and cursings. Muslims seem to think anyone who is not a Muslims lies about everything said against Islam. That kind of logic suggest that Muslims are beyond reason.

I agree

 

[PouringRain]

I believe that Christians, Muslims, and Jews alll worship the same God. The God of Abraham. I know that many of you disagree and that many of you would argue that Jews also do not believe Muslims worship the same God. There are Jews who would say that Muslims do. Many Jews would say that Christians do not worship the same God as them. From my understanding, if necessary, a Jew is permitted to pray in a mosque, but never a church, although it is not preferable.

Sorry, I do not have a lot of time to go into all of this more, nor to reply much. I will have more time in several days from now. It is not that I believe all religions serve the same god, it is only that I accept that Is, Ch, and Ju all worship the same God. I also feel the beliefs are more compatible than many Christians would like to think. Islam is actually closer to Judaism than Christianity is. I don't believe that when Jesus came he intended to create a "new religion." I also believe that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

[watchman F]

I believe that Christians, Muslims, and Jews alll worship the same God.

And you are wrong

 

[watchman F]

I believe that Christians, Muslims, and Jews alll worship the same God.

And you are wrong

Every Jew or Muslim that does not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and repent of their sins, receiving Him into their hearts, will die and go to Hell. Plain and simple.

 

[Caroline H]

[quote="watchman F":19n2zb9k]

I believe that Christians, Muslims, and Jews alll worship the same God.

And you are wrong

Every Jew or Muslim that does not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and repent of their sins, receiving Him into their hearts, will die and go to Hell. Plain and simple.[/quote:19n2zb9k]

Worshiping God won't send anyone to heaven though, It's only by Christ. Anyone can worship God, it's just a matter of whether He will accept that worship, and ultimately it comes down to whether they are covered by Christ's blood.

 

[Tina]

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I was once a trinitarian, and I could not grasp the concept.

It's no wonder you left Christianity .. you cannot even understand a simple concept of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I am confused, you are saying those hadeeth confirm the trinity? or somehow suggest worshipping of Jesus(AS)?

All I'm trying to say is that your concept of "Tawhid" (Oneness of God) according to Islam is highly questionable in light of the surah verses that say it will be Jesus Who will judge people in the end, not Allah.

 

[shad]

It's no wonder you left Christianity .. you cannot even understand a simple concept of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Hi Tina,

Simple concept is that Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world and He was sent to earth by His Father who is also our Father, to forgive our sins who accept Jesus' offering of forgiveness. Without Jesus, no one will be saved. The Holy Spirit is Their helper.

We don't have to accept or understand trinitarians' doctrines to be saved.

Most essential in Christianity is that we love God and His beloved Son, Jesus and serve them with all our heart, soul, strength and mind.

Let's not complicate Christianity.

 

[Tina]

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Did I say that belief in "Trinity" is essential for Salvation ?

Let's not complicate Christianity ....

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":28og6fch]Every Jew or Muslim that does not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and repent of their sins, receiving Him into their hearts, will die and go to Hell. Plain and simple.

Worshiping God won't send anyone to heaven though, It's only by Christ. Anyone can worship God, it's just a matter of whether He will accept that worship, and ultimately it comes down to whether they are covered by Christ's blood. [/quote:28og6fch]I agree there will be many within the Christian church that do not make it to Heaven. It is only through the belief on Jesus as Messiah coupled with true repentance that we will receive eternal life.

 

[shad]

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Did I say that belief in "Trinity" is essential for Salvation ?

Let's not complicate Christianity ....

Mujahid Abdullah wrote:
I was once a trinitarian, and I could not grasp the concept.

He was talking about the trinity. And you came with this.

It's no wonder you left Christianity .. you cannot even understand a simple concept of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You seem to be implying the trinity. Are you saying that you dont think it is essential to believe in trinity to be saved?

 

[jasoncran]

if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

 

[Nick]

Let's try and keep this away from a trinity debate please.

 

[Tina]

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You seem to be implying the trinity. Are you saying that you dont think it is essential to believe in trinity to be saved?

if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

I believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to the Bible, but the word "Trinity" ain't found in the Bible. But I still believe in Trinity - it's a perfect short term, and I've no problem believing in the divinity of Christ as it's in the Bible.

I know one of the main doctrines of Christianity that Muslims reject is "Trinity", using the argument that the word is not found in the Bible. So I prefer to go by "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" instead, which is the same ....

Just as the word "Tawhid" ain't found in the Quran but only inferred, but Muslims believe in "Oneness of God" ... even then, their "Oneness of God" concept seems highly questionable as it contradicts some surah verses .....

 

[Tina]

It also is telling, you deny polytheism, yet you advocate the worship of more than one god, and try to justify it in the OT, and now the Quran.

I advocate no such thing ! ... And you've just proven my point that you do not understand the simple concept of Trinity. Trinity isn't just jusified in OT,.. the NT has plenty of scriptures that point to Trinity too .

I believe I've already presented Quranic verses that say it will be JESUS Who will judge people in the end, NOT Allah. And yet you've failed to defend your "Oneness of God" belief in light of this ...

 

[Tina]

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If speaking the truths come across as animosity to you, I cannot be held accountable for your sensitivity. At least you agree with my point that it will be JESUS Who will judge people in the end, NOT Allah, even if according to your own Islamic interpretation, His sovereign rule and judgement amounts to nothing special !

The Quran also states that when Allah created Adam, he commanded angels to prostrate to the MAN -- a HUMAN BEING, and all the angels did. Interestingly, satan is the only one who refused .....


Surah 15:26-35
We created the human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire. Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate; all of them, except Iblis (Satan). He refused to be with the prostrators. He said, "O Iblis (Satan), why are you not with the prostrators?" He said, "I am not to prostrate before a human being, whom You created from aged mud, like the potter's clay." He said, "Therefore, you must get out; you are banished. "You have incurred My condemnation until the Day of Judgment."

 

[Tina]

You did not address all of my previous post - could you please explain your reasoning behind trying to prove we are commanded to worship more than one god, i.e. Jesus(AS) (and now Adam I guess), but claim you dont advocate worshipping more than one god?

I stand by the belief that I advocate no such thing as worshipping more than One God. Jesus is equated with God in the NT, and He is what was concealed in the OT revealed in the NT. He is the Judge and Ruler in the end and that's what makes Him Soverign and worthy of worship. I never said Muslims are commanded to worship more than one god, if I did, please point out to me my post where I said that. All I said is that your Quran, or Hadith, has given special rights and provisions to Jesus alone to judge people in the end, which to me as a Christian, seems to contradict your "Oneness of God" belief. And the God of the Bible never once asked angels to prostrate to any of His creations like human beings, whether in heaven or on earth, which is another character of God that differs that of Allah.

 

[Tina]

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The moment an Islamic doctrine is challenged, Muslims like you construe it as an "attack".

You have just demonstrated a fine example of "Tolerance" .... which is what this thread is all about !

 

[Ed the Ned]

Tina, It makes no sense to argue with Mujahid regarding the issue of the Trinity or Allah or God. I stated earlier in this thread we should be discussing Islamic Tolerance. It does not exist and no matter what pretty picture Mujahid is trying to paint Islams do not have tolerance. They don't have tolerance when it comes to regious freedom.
Have you ever heard of "honour killings", which has been on the increase in Islam, as the leaders do not want to formally condemn it. Fathers who murder their own daughters because they have become to western or have made friends with boys that are non muslim and therefore have dishonoured their name.
A person has a God given right to choose if he wants to follow Christ or not. It is also starnge how muslims boast about Christians converting to Islam yet claim that muslims that convert to Christianity should be put to death under Islamic law. Where is the tolerance that Muslims expect from Christians yet fail to show themselves? Its OK to convert Christians to Muslims in America, yet not OK to convert Muslims to Christian in Iraq!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ed the Ned]

But you have to seperate Islamic actions from the actions of Muslims - honor killings are not allowed in Islam. They are practiced by some Muslims, but are not allowed.

What is the punishment for such killings in Islamic counties? Less than 2 years! From my search of the web, I came across a case where the father was given a 6 month sentence for killing his daughter then his wife. If Honour killings were so sespicable to Muslims as it is not allowed in the Koran and in Islamic teachings then why is there not a major out cry from Muslims?
I cannot see how we can seperate the two until we see a major outcry from Muslim Cleric and Islamic lawmakers that hand down stiff sentences for such actions. This does not happen and I fear never will as it might lead to immoral behaviour as we have seen by Jordan law makers.

Honor killings are justified as a necessary part of culture in other Muslim countries such as Jordan, which is technically a secular kingdom with a representative parliament. In 2001 King Abdallah presented a bill outlining stiff penalties for honor killings, but parliament rejected it, stating, "it [punishing honor killings] would encourage adultery and create new social problems." Four years later, honor killings accounted for one-third of all violent deaths in Jordan in 2005, where perpetrators received as little as six months in prison under the penal code.

http://www.islamist-watch.org/928/does-islam-justify-honor-killings

You have not heard Muslim leaders speak out against it because they dont get air time - and you have not looked for the Muslim leaders who speak out against it.

How much airtime do Muslim clerics have in Islamic countires? Surely we should be seeing an a solid attempt within Islamic counties to stop these killings that are clearly not in the Koran. If there is a genuine attempt to stop Honour killings in those counties, It will spill over to Christian counties and some childs life would have been saved. It just seems that in the context of Islam, morallity is given higher value than life!

I find it stange that you never esponded to the second part of my previous post!

A person has a God given right to choose if he wants to follow Christ or not. It is also starnge how muslims boast about Christians converting to Islam yet claim that muslims that convert to Christianity should be put to death under Islamic law. Where is the tolerance that Muslims expect from Christians yet fail to show themselves? Its OK to convert Christians to Muslims in America, yet not OK to convert Muslims to Christian in Iraq!!!!!!!!!!