Christian Tolerance?

[Danus]

I dont expect tolerance.

I also do not feel Islam is as Tollerant of false religions as modern American christians are.

If a Muslim, living in a Muslim land, ruled by sharia law, and has a just Muslim ruler ruling it, renounces Islam openly, that person is subject to the death penalty. In order for him to be put to death the land he lives in MUST fulfill all those conditions. The Hadd punishment can not be delved out by commoners with no knowledge of the law, the Hadd cannot be delved out without eye witnesses. If all these conditions are fulfilled than the death penalty is mandatory and as a Muslim I can not argue with that.

Like I said, I dont expect christians to be tollerant. when they are its fine, if they change that stance I wont be suprised or hurt by it.

I think we are far too tolerant. In the US we are being undermined by people who know nothing of our two religions to begin with. Many would just assume be Muslim if it meant that no one would fly planes into our places of business, or try to bomb something. Christians typically don't use the word "tolerant" in the same way as our secular culture does.

Right now the Muslim communities in America have an advantage. They can run to the secular liberals and cry intolerance and hate while pointing at the Christian and Jews and gain support.

 

[Danus]

I dont expect tolerance.

I also do not feel Islam is as Tollerant of false religions as modern American christians are.

I think this part of your quote says it all. However, I'd strike the word "Christians" from that last sentence. What is discussed in the Christian community is not what you hear on TV from presidents trying to assure the Muslim communities that we are only after the "Muslim Terrorist" and that we know Islam is a peaceful religion. Those are just words for the camera and for the liberal humanist. (Modern America)

Islam is not tolerant of any religion other than Islam. It may seem tolerant. It wants the world to think it is...but it's not and I think in your heart you know this.

 

[Danus]

Go and read how Ahli Kitab are to be treated when under the rule of Muslims from Muslim sources, and you will see how far our tollerance goes and what we are not tolerant of.

there are some restrictions on Ahli Kitab, but they are aloud to practice their religion.

Quick question, where did you get your oppinion of the tollerance of Islam from?

Tolerance is not a word worth kicking around is it? You would not tolerate me standing on your street corner speaking about Christianity would you? I've no idea what part of the world your in, but I think we can agree that America is pretty well "tolerant" of people's belief systems. Right? And I think we could agree that American secular law is far more "tolerant" that sharia law ...correct?

Go and read how Ahli Kitab are to be treated when under the rule of Muslims

Has nothing to do with Islamic tolerance and you know it. That might work on the secular crowd who reads a verse or two, but on the whole it's garbage as an argument.

 

[Danus]

We may in fact be down the street from one-another. I live in The good ol' US of A.

I was born here, I converted to Islam from christianity 12 years ago. Ive been overseas, and I have talked to Christians and sikhs in Lahore Pakistan. We talked about eachothers faiths being tollerant of one-another as we all worshipped at the same khanaqa. the Khanqa of Mian Mir Qadri, who is revered by Muslims, sikhs and Christians in Pakistan. So I have witnessed Islamic tollerance first hand.
Later, in Punjab Province, I attended a gathering of scholars, one of the scholars brought a guest with him. This man was an American Missionary and Pastor who wanted to see our gatherings. This mIssionary was invited on stage to say a few words. He expressed how when he came to India as a missionary to the Indian Punjab, he was quite suprised to see how welcomed he was by everyone, even though he was clearly on christian missionary trip, he expressed how his notions of Islam were all changed when he arrived in the Punjab. The next day at another gathering, I saw the Pastor, and since we were both Americans, I introduced myself to him. I was quite supprised when he told me he had just become Muslim, and that his church had fired him that day, but he was happy with his decision.

Again when I went to Syria to learn Arabic, I encountered christian monks. I practiced my Arabic with one (he spoke very good english), We talked about the christianity of the apostle Pauls home, Damascus, versuses the christianity I grew up with in America. They are quite different, in fact its hard to imagine the two being one in the same. They also told me a little of their History, which pre-dated Islam, yet they still worship at the same church in Damascus. Funny how not one time did I hear of any oppression, or of how horrible his life was under Islamic law.

I have also witnessed the reaction of christians like you to Islam. They are very different. But Im sure you have the world all figured out.

so let me ask you again, where did you form your oppinin on Islamic tollerance? Cause I formed mine sitting with non-muslims in Muslim lands.

I’ve found that discussions in generalities are not very productive. Not to say that general statements and words can not, or should not, be used, but if we can’t back them up with specifics there is no point in entertaining them.

That said the word “Tolerance†falls clearly in to the category of general. It’s like the word “wealthy†in that it is not specific enough to define. So to your question; where do I get my understanding of Islamic “toleranceâ€, I have to say that it’s a wide collection of sources that include the Koran all the way to the media as well as other historical evidences.

However, in order to draw my conclusions I would have to be weighing all that I know against my own understanding of “toleranceâ€. So, in the end it would not even matter if I gave you my specifics. We’d just be locked into you trying to convince me otherwise using your standard of the same word, “toleranceâ€

Christians and Muslims differ on some very wide points of view that can not be bridged with understandings from each of our knowledge of truth. For example, Muslims will say things like; “we respect Christ†as if that’s all you have to say to us to be brothers. It’s not. You don’t believe in the deity of Christ. You follow your religious law, we don’t. We’re not under it.

One thing I will not do is treat you or your beliefs with disrespect as far as I can while still holding a discussion, and while I will agree that there are some fine peace loving Muslim people, I’ve known and know several that I call friends, I do not see, or consider Islam as a tolerant religion as a whole. I do not think God speaks through the Koran at all. I think God spoke to the Jews. God was with us as Christ as documented through the NT of the Holly Bible and that’s it as far as our known documented text. God still speaks and works through us in other ways, but He is not, and has not, given us any other instructions in the form of other religions since his sacrifice on the cross.

Islam created itself after the fact. It took itself further away from the truth of God when we compare what’s written in the Koran and the Holly Bible. No amount of debate will make it otherwise. If you want to say you’re for peace and tolerance, great, but it’s a hard and impossible sell for Islam as a whole to the Jewish and Christian populations. It does not change what we have seen from Islam since its inception, and while that might be our problem to deal with in regards to violence, it’s more so a problem for the good people involved in Islam, or who are unfortunate enough to live in an Islamic country where they are forced into the Islamic religion and only given the choice of death if they happen to develop other beliefs.

 

[jasoncran]

ma, what were the barbary pirates?

 

[jasoncran]

because they were agressively attacking all nations in the name of allah to spread islam.

we stopped them in tripoli. we told them that if they leave us alone we wont bother them.they stopped as they lost monetery support, the might of u.s constitution caused them to think about it.

not the first time we dealt with islam

now what of the filipino insurrection? why are the marines called leathernecks?

 

[jasoncran]

what is your point jason?

islam historically for the most part has been the agreessor.

there are sins of the christian church as a whole,but when has the church as a whole formed an army and killed the enemies of the church and not followed the teachings of christ.

for being simply an unbeliver.not in the case of defending the inocents.

 

[jasoncran]

really, last night you said that the taliban would punish usama

they have been training terrorist in that country for yrs before we attacked them,

remember tora bora, why did we bomb that compound?
to get bin laden
9-11 wasnt the first killings of americans via suicide bombers.
the uss cole
rydayah, saudi arabia
and others

 

[jasoncran]

odd, as i have acessed to intel that you have no clue on. al queda is very much alive. i have seen the links to the chains myself on the lower levels to a big wig in country and others.

that was yrs ago, but i'm sure that others joined in to replace the lost leaders of al queda.

we did that type of fighting to the brits, that how we won, they would win a battle and hold a city only discover that though they captured an officer, we continued the fight.

so the taliban arent muslims. i recall that you called the islamic republic of afghanistan the most respected muslim country to me

btw the pashtun i was with hated the taliban. kunar province resisted them quite well.(the taliban)
so now afghanistan wasnt a practicing islam at the time when they were under the taliban or the russian rule?

odd, i know muslims personally that would disagree.btw we had a mosque on my compound paid for by u.s dollars.

we are by bush words at war not with islam but the extremists, i know the difference.

you claim otherwise. i know that they are some that dont want war, but they are few and not heard,

 

[jasoncran]

because you claim that islam as a whole tolerates christians. based on my experciences as a soldier an what i was told from an army chaplain that was in saudi. no. one cant pray or talk about or show a bible in public even at the embassy without risk of death.

kuwati muslims are almost the same

even in taliban free kunar(where i was) that isnt the case as well.

i only talked to the westernize muslims that were terps about the faith, they asked i answered. i wanst there to proseylite but to defend by country, i cant act on my faith and cause a local jihad, and cause the fellow soldiers of mine to die for my zeal to save souls. so i did witness very discreetly.

many of the terps like my christian music, and also respected me as i saw them as humans first then muslims. i treated them as i wanted to be treated. i was kind, they repricotated.

 

[Danus]

Islam wants us to think it's peaceful. It wants the world to believe that the terrorist are not representing true Islam. It's a sham. Islam is trying to sell us a lie to spread it's own lie.

Islam is not a peaceful religion but dangerous and oppressive form of government. It's all about sharia law and imposing that throughout the world.

[youtube:s8nc1bl3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm-GBMUqRU8[/youtube:s8nc1bl3]

 

[Chris]

so much as it amazes me. Why, I wonder, is this so important to some of you? We Muslims do not engage in any similar behavior against Christians. We try our best to res Forgiveness and non-violence are of paramount importance. If a Muslim knows this why do some Christians not?

Christianity and Islam do not compete. We are supposed to be brothers in God. Is it only spiritual immaturity which inspires this foolishness or is there something even more profound?

What I would like to discuss is the reasons some of you might have for attempting to undermine my religion. I don't spend my time dreaming up reasons why Christianity is false. I have better things to do. Don't you? Also I'd like to know what you think God's reaction to your behavior might be.Yaqub

Thanks for your comment and i think tolerance and respect all round would be a better world. Also comments based on ignorance never help of which I am an offender.

A group of people with a similar viewpoint and is always at risk of becoming isolationists with narrow minded opinions. Every religion included there. please take my next words as a method of bridging the gap and helping us to understand each other.

In a spirit of helping you to understand why there might be comments as you have noted towards Islam.
In Australia where I live as it is hot here most of us just wear minimal clothing bikinis etc something that no-one has an issue with except some Muslim guys have made derogatory comments towards our girls because of the way they are dressed I don't understand this.. What's wrong with my wife's appearance? and this is probably the worst example of stupidity i can remember in recent times
we had riots in Sydney in 2006 over things like this.

Often TV often portrays a Muslim/ terrorist relationship. Which I think is tragic for all the good people out there who are Muslims. Tolerance doesn't make prime time viewing.Probably much the same as i feel sorry for some Catholic priests at the moment.They suffer for the stupidity of the other ones.

Possibly because of this people feel threatened. and maybe this carries over into here.

I had some neighbors that moved here that were Muslim and we had dinner together and traded recipes. The whole time I thought how much i hated it that TV had tainted the meeting of these people with false expectations.

The other really important thing Jesus told us to love unconditionally and stand firm in our faith, it can be a tricky balance doing that sometimes.
please feel free to contribute back for better tolerance and understanding

I hope that helps you,
god bless,
Chris

 

[Nick]

so much as it amazes me. Why, I wonder, is this so important to some of you? We Muslims do not engage in any similar behavior against Christians. We try our best to res Forgiveness and non-violence are of paramount importance. If a Muslim knows this why do some Christians not?

Christianity and Islam do not compete. We are supposed to be brothers in God. Is it only spiritual immaturity which inspires this foolishness or is there something even more profound?

What I would like to discuss is the reasons some of you might have for attempting to undermine my religion. I don't spend my time dreaming up reasons why Christianity is false. I have better things to do. Don't you? Also I'd like to know what you think God's reaction to your behavior might be.Yaqub

Thanks for your comment and i think tolerance and respect all round would be a better world. Also comments based on ignorance never help of which I am an offender.

A group of people with a similar viewpoint and is always at risk of becoming isolationists with narrow minded opinions. Every religion included there. please take my next words as a method of bridging the gap and helping us to understand each other.

In a spirit of helping you to understand why there might be comments as you have noted towards Islam.
In Australia where I live as it is hot here most of us just wear minimal clothing bikinis etc something that no-one has an issue with except some Muslim guys have made derogatory comments towards our girls because of the way they are dressed I don't understand this.. What's wrong with my wife's appearance? and this is probably the worst example of stupidity i can remember in recent times
we had riots in Sydney in 2006 over things like this.

Often TV often portrays a Muslim/ terrorist relationship. Which I think is tragic for all the good people out there who are Muslims. Tolerance doesn't make prime time viewing.Probably much the same as i feel sorry for some Catholic priests at the moment.They suffer for the stupidity of the other ones.

Possibly because of this people feel threatened. and maybe this carries over into here.

I had some neighbors that moved here that were Muslim and we had dinner together and traded recipes. The whole time I thought how much i hated it that TV had tainted the meeting of these people with false expectations.

The other really important thing Jesus told us to love unconditionally and stand firm in our faith, it can be a tricky balance doing that sometimes.
please feel free to contribute back for better tolerance and understanding

I hope that helps you,
god bless,
Chris

While we must acknowledge that the Qu'an teaches hate and violence towards non-Muslims, and while we must be aware that there is an increasing number of Muslims, especially in Indonesia being trained up in extremist teachings, or rather core teachings of the political (not relligious) side of Islam, there are also many Muslims that only practice the religious side of Islam. Your post highlights most of my experiences with Muslims personally - most of them are very nice people who just come from a different perspective than us. I don't like the automoatic assumption that some people have towards Muslims that they're Arab terrorists. That is not the case. In fact the largest single population of Muslims is in Indonesia and Malaysia. Hardly Arab at all.

 

[Jon-Marc]

No matter who you are, some will find fault with what you say and believe. I am often being told how wrong I am and just write them off as being deceived. I don't know everything or have all the answers, but I know I'm right about what little I do know. Of course, i could be wrong.

 

[Chris]

A thought comes to mind- A post like this appears a in a Christian forum hmmmm..nothing is surer to get a rise and an argument going. If this is a stir ill bet they got a laugh. No more for me LOL.

Chris looks for the delete button but the mod has it.

 

[l'Chante]

I understand what you mean, Chris. I work with numerous Muslims and I call most of them 'friends'. Not that I will go over for supper, but we get on so well at work.. As a matter of fact - I did one of my Muslim friend's niece's Afrikaans homework on Thursday night. (It's my mother tongue, so I'm an expert in the field )

Her elderly mother always send some ginger cookies to work because she knows that I simply love whatever she bakes. (Hey, you can't beat Indian cooking - love the briani as well)

The Muslim ladies here vary from covering all but their eyes, to some only covering their hair, to dressing the same as everybody else. I don't consider Muslims to be evil, however, I would love nothing more then all of them converting to Christianity.

 

[Danus]

I don't think anyone is saying Muslims are evil by definition. However, I'm not short of identifying Islam as evil at it's very core.

Evil creeps up in disguise. In the case of Islam it's deceptive, not only to the good people involved in it, but also to those Islam labels as infidels. Islam, as an organized religion, has a clear agenda to spread itself over the world by FORCE if necessary. Look at the countries governed by Islamic law. If you are born into that you don't have a free choice. That's your religion like it or not. If you turn from it they simply kill you. It's their LAW, which they claim is the law of Allah.

As Christians we need to look at the facts of the Islamic movement over time and around the world. That's not to say that Muslims are evil, but Islam is no where near Christianity...not even close, yet Muslims often like to associate themselves with the bible, Christ, and the same God in nature that we worship. They are not. Should we tolerate that?

In America we have a large "secular" movement that is largely clueless of any religion. They like to use this word "Tolerance" but only when it fits into their agenda. At what point to we stop being blindly tolerant and put our foot down for what is right? Christians have a definition of what is right, but that definition often conflicts with what the secular movement defines as right. What is right to them is what is right to the individual with little regard to the affect on society.

 

[Barbarian]

At what point to we stop being blindly tolerant and put our foot down for what is right?

When we repeal religious freedom in America.

 

[Danus]

At what point to we stop being blindly tolerant and put our foot down for what is right?

When we repeal religious freedom in America.

Well, I think we can have religious freedom, but if we are not careful what is evil will slip in while the door is open. Happening now.

 

[coffeelover]

Evil can masquerade as anything. It can be secular, Muslim or even Christian. I also think the internet is part of the problem. It allows the the craziest most hateful ideas to spread, and adherents to reinforce each other. Good people need to use this great communication tool more effectively to spread the truth.