Agape
Member
I agree with a Calvinism, Baptist preacher?
LOL, regarding Israel of course. Lemme find that article for you.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Christian Zionism
- Thread starter P31Woman
- Start date
LOL, regarding Israel of course. Lemme find that article for you.
Deborah13
Member
Well I am glad you did because it is addressing some of the very issues I have had lately that I was really trying to avoid and shouldn't.
Thanks
Agape
Member
I agree with a Calvinism, Baptist preacher?
Here is the article.
How should Bible-believing Christians align themselves in the Jewish-Palestinian conflict? There are Biblical reasons for treating both sides with compassionate public justice in the same way that disputes should be settled between nations generally. In other words, the Bible does not teach us to be partial to Israel or to the Palestinians because either has a special divine status.
I do not deny that Israel was chosen by God from all the peoples of the world to be the focus of special blessing in the history of redemption which climaxed in Jesus Christ, the Messiah. "The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth" (Deuteronomy 7:6).
Nor do I deny that God promised to Israel the presently disputed land from the time of Abraham onward. God said to Moses, "This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, 'I will give it to your offspring'" (Deuteronomy 34:4).
But neither of these Biblical facts leads necessarily to the endorsement of present-day Israel as the rightful possessor of all the disputed land. Israel may have such a right. And she may not. But that decision is not based on divine privilege. Why?
First, a non-covenant-keeping people does not have a divine right to hold the land of promise. Both the blessed status of the people and the privileged right to the land are conditional on Israel's keeping the covenant God made with her. Thus God said to Israel, "If you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples" (Exodus 19:5). Israel has no warrant to a present experience of divine privilege when she is not keeping covenant with God.
More than once Israel was denied the experience of her divine right to the land when she broke covenant with God. For example, when Israel languished in captivity in Babylon, Daniel prayed, "O Lord . . .we have sinned and done wrong . . . To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame . . . to all Israel . . . in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you" (Daniel 9:4-7; see Psalm 78:54-61). Israel has no divine right to be in the land of promise when she is breaking the covenant of promise.
This does not mean that other nations have the right to molest her. She still has human rights among nations when she has no divine right. Nations that gloated over her divine discipline were punished by God (Isaiah 10:5-13).
Secondly, Israel as a whole today rejects her Messiah, Jesus Christ, God's Son. This is the ultimate act of covenant-breaking with God. God promised that to Israel "a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6-7). But with tears this Prince of Peace looked out over Jerusalem and said, "Would that you . . . had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. . . . You did not know the time of your visitation" (Luke 19:42-44).
When the builders rejected the beautiful Cornerstone, Jesus said, "The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits" (Matthew 21:43). He explained, "Many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness" (Matthew 8:11-12)
God has saving purposes for ethnic Israel (Romans 11:25-26). But for now the people are at enmity with God in rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ, their Messiah (Romans 11:28). God has expanded his saving work to embrace all peoples (including Palestinians) who will trust his Son and depend on his death and resurrection for salvation. "Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith" (Romans 3:29-30).
The Christian plea in the Middle East to Palestinians and Jews is: "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31). And until that great day when both Jewish and Gentile followers of King Jesus inherit the earth (not just the land), without lifting sword or gun, the rights of nations should be decided by the principles of compassionate and public justice, not claims to national divine right or status.
By John Piper. ©2012 Desiring God Foundation.
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...jews-have-a-divine-right-in-the-promised-land
Ryan
Member
The thing that I disagree with is the land was based on a promise. An unconditional promise. A promise that could not be broken. Israel broke Mt. Sinai's covenant, that is how they were out of covenant and subjected to the curses of that covenant. However, the Abrahamic Covenant was sworn by God, and God himself that indicates the eternity of those promises.
Hebrews 6:13 "13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself,"
Genesis 13:14-15: "The LORD said to Abraham: Look about you, and from where you are, gaze to the north and south, east and west; all the land that you see I will give to you and your descendants forever."
This was absolutely unconditional and I am not gonna tell God that his people can't, or aren't entitled to that land.
That is why satan has been so zealous to kill off the Jews. In a remarkable twist of irony it was satan's doing to annihilate the Jews during the Holocaust that the promises of the rebirth of Israel occured. So no, I don't agree with his position as it was a promise the land was given to them. His assertion is that Israel breaking Mt. Sinai's covenant renders the promises made to Abraham void. So in a way, the Abrahamic covenant is Israel's safety net that protected them even if they broke the Sinai covenant.
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jasoncran
Member
well if one wants to go that route. the Chassidic jews and myself see that when Jacob went into Egypt it was judgment upon Isreal. abram's lack of faith is why God did that. he went to Egypt when he didn't have too. God basically said by doing that you forfeit the land. How can isreal be forever if the entire earth and all of creation will be destroyed ? the Ramban believed that as well and it is mentioned in his commentary on Beersherith.
jasoncran
Member
I have no problem with the idea of isreal having the land. what bothers me from a scriputural point that they must do the torah in bits and pieces. when the new covenant makes that really not needed and the verses us to support that don't really say that. I was raised in a legalistic background as a Jehovah's witness.
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btw you have forced me to make sure that I don't hold animosity. I don't. so I will post this video by Paul Wilbur[video=youtube;TbxlKVzNUm4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbxlKVzNUm4[/video]
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btw you have forced me to make sure that I don't hold animosity. I don't. so I will post this video by Paul Wilbur[video=youtube;TbxlKVzNUm4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbxlKVzNUm4[/video]
Ryan
Member
God couldn't forfeit anything that he had given as an unconditional promise. Rambam is well wrong on this one.
Paul Wilbur is good, I'm on a Robin Mark kick lately though. Celtic sounds are speaking to me.
Pray the trip is a blessing for him.
What unconditional promise?
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
we see here it was because of Abrahams obedience, obedience is a condition
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
we see here it was because of Abrahams obedience, obedience is a condition
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
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jasoncran
Member
actually he isn't. the orthodox jews believe that modern isreal is a sin. why because they want the torah in effect. they know that muslims and Christians to their faith is an abonomation and only the Messiah should be the one to purge them from the land. they believe only the YHWH will send the Moshiac when the jews practice the torah fully.
hmm. I do think they go that right as they see the torah. to them it is conditional.
hmm. I do think they go that right as they see the torah. to them it is conditional.
Sinthesis
Member
They also believe Jesus was a sinner, and if Jesus wasn't God Incarnate then they would be right. But they are wrong.
Yes there are Orthodox Jews who are against the modern state of Israel because they view it as sinful...and there a Christians like me who would agree with them.
jasoncran
Member
The Haredi community in Israel has adopted a policy of cultural dissociation, but at the same time, it has struggled to remain politically active, perceiving itself as the true protector of the country's Jewish nature.
The issues date to the late nineteenth-early twentieth century, with the rise of Zionism. The vast majority of Haredi Jews rejected Zionism for a number of reasons. Chief among these was the claim that Jewish political independence could only be obtained through Divine intervention, with the coming of the Messiah. Any attempt to force history was seen as an open rebellion against Judaism (for a more complete exposition of this ideology see Three Oaths; Vayoel Moshe; Neturei Karta).
More important was the dislike that the political and cultural Zionism of the time felt toward any manifestation of religion. Influenced by socialism, secular Zionists looked on religion as an outdated relic, which should disappear (or, according to some extreme views, even be eradicated) in favor of Jewish nationalism. As with the nineteenth century Reform Judaism movement in Germany, the result was mutual recriminations, rejection, and harsh verbal attacks. To Zionists, Haredi Jews were either "primitives" or "parasites"; to Haredi Jews, Zionists were tyrannizing heretics. This kulturkampf still plagues Israeli society today, where animosity between the two groups has even pervaded both their educational systems.
Despite the animosity, it was necessary for the two groups to work out some modus vivendi in the face of a more dangerous enemy, the Nazis. This was achieved by a division of powers and authority, based on the division that existed during the British Mandate in the country. Known as the "status quo", it granted political authority (such as control over public institutions, the army, etc.) to the Zionists and religious authority (such as control over marriage, divorce, conversions, etc.) to the Orthodox. A compromise worked out by Labor Zionist leader Berl Katznelson even before statehood ensured that public institutions accommodate the Orthodox by observing the Sabbath and providing kosher food.
Notwithstanding these compromises, many Haredi groups maintained their previous apolitical stance. The community had split into two parts: Agudat Israel, which cooperated with the state, and the Edah HaChareidis, which fiercely opposed it. Both groups still exist today, with the same attitudes. The Edah HaChareidis includes numerous Hasidic groups, such as Satmar, Dushinsky and Toldos Aharon, as well as several non-Hasidic groups of Lithuanian and Hungarian background.
A small minority of Jews, who claim to have been descended from communities who had lived peacefully with their Arab neighbors during the 18th and early 19th centuries, took a different stance. In 1935 they formed a new grouping called the Neturei Karta out of a coalition of several previous anti-Zionist Jewish groups in the Holy Land, and aligned themselves politically with the Arabs out of a dislike for Zionist policies
that is from wiki. these are a minority.
The issues date to the late nineteenth-early twentieth century, with the rise of Zionism. The vast majority of Haredi Jews rejected Zionism for a number of reasons. Chief among these was the claim that Jewish political independence could only be obtained through Divine intervention, with the coming of the Messiah. Any attempt to force history was seen as an open rebellion against Judaism (for a more complete exposition of this ideology see Three Oaths; Vayoel Moshe; Neturei Karta).
More important was the dislike that the political and cultural Zionism of the time felt toward any manifestation of religion. Influenced by socialism, secular Zionists looked on religion as an outdated relic, which should disappear (or, according to some extreme views, even be eradicated) in favor of Jewish nationalism. As with the nineteenth century Reform Judaism movement in Germany, the result was mutual recriminations, rejection, and harsh verbal attacks. To Zionists, Haredi Jews were either "primitives" or "parasites"; to Haredi Jews, Zionists were tyrannizing heretics. This kulturkampf still plagues Israeli society today, where animosity between the two groups has even pervaded both their educational systems.
Despite the animosity, it was necessary for the two groups to work out some modus vivendi in the face of a more dangerous enemy, the Nazis. This was achieved by a division of powers and authority, based on the division that existed during the British Mandate in the country. Known as the "status quo", it granted political authority (such as control over public institutions, the army, etc.) to the Zionists and religious authority (such as control over marriage, divorce, conversions, etc.) to the Orthodox. A compromise worked out by Labor Zionist leader Berl Katznelson even before statehood ensured that public institutions accommodate the Orthodox by observing the Sabbath and providing kosher food.
Notwithstanding these compromises, many Haredi groups maintained their previous apolitical stance. The community had split into two parts: Agudat Israel, which cooperated with the state, and the Edah HaChareidis, which fiercely opposed it. Both groups still exist today, with the same attitudes. The Edah HaChareidis includes numerous Hasidic groups, such as Satmar, Dushinsky and Toldos Aharon, as well as several non-Hasidic groups of Lithuanian and Hungarian background.
A small minority of Jews, who claim to have been descended from communities who had lived peacefully with their Arab neighbors during the 18th and early 19th centuries, took a different stance. In 1935 they formed a new grouping called the Neturei Karta out of a coalition of several previous anti-Zionist Jewish groups in the Holy Land, and aligned themselves politically with the Arabs out of a dislike for Zionist policies
that is from wiki. these are a minority.
Ryan
Member
That's a good point Reba, and I've heard many arguments whether the Abrahamic covenant is conditional or unconditional. You can make good points for both. Did it always require faithfulness on the part of man? You could argue then "the Seed" promised being the Messiah was made flesh during a period of great apostasy. Genesis 12:3 is fulfilled in Matthew 1:1-16. So then how was this promise conditional?
I believe that the Abrahamic Covenant is like a tank going down the road. The tank being the promises and the covenant, and there is nothing that anybody can do to stop it. It will bulldoze anything standing in its way. So one can either hop on and not get creamed, or dare to stand in the way of God's sovereign will. So I guess, yes it can be conditional on our part if we decide to hop on and be par takers and inheritors of it. Interesting passage I found was this:
Exodus 32:9-10 The Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”
God was so hot with Israel, he was burning to destroy Israel with the exception of Moses. Further he said he would then make a great nation out of just Moses. To me, this is telling that God will work out his own sovereign will and plan, with or without us. He will only take the righteous along for the ride.
And I think that is what God was getting at if you include verses 44 & 45 in Leviticus 26.
44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God.
45 But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the Lord
If this is the Torah they follow and how they treat other people, then it's not the same Torah I follow.
http://ivarfjeld.com/2011/03/02/ultra-orthodox-calls-messianic-jews-for-hitler/
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
Jason, my friend, when has Israel -- or the Christian "nation" for that matter -- not been in sin?
Sinthesis
Member
It seems those who consider their own holiness a virtue are always condemning the rest of their world. What zionists of any religion fail to see is that Abraham, Israel, and David have inherited the entire world through Jesus. Had Jesus needed a theocratic state He would have established one. Instead He demonstrates His authority and power through the victorious lives of individual persons who trust in Him rather than the powerless illusion of state authority. A secular state allows people of God to apply in their own lives the teaching of Mat 22:21.