Christian Zionism

[farouk]

Lice?

..it also says, 'in Cenchrea, for he had a vow' (Acts 18.18).

The grammar apparently fits for it to refer possibly to Aquila. Although it's generally taken to mean Paul. There is a manuscript which also has an alternative suggesting that it was Priscilla who shaved her head, although it probably wasn't the case, even though according to Numbers 6 it could have been a woman shaving her head for a Nazarite vow, too.

 

[Ryan]

Numbers 6:6-8 "‘All the days of his separation to the Lord he shall not go near to a dead person. He shall not make himself unclean for his father or for his mother, for his brother or for his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head. All the days of his separation he is holy to the Lord."

Why do you think Jesus had to die before the 2 thieves?

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, you need to go back to Numbers 6. There is no requirement to be in the temple to make a vow. One could make one anywhere, Nazarite or otherwise.

where the alter is there is. if it ends sorry that is listed there at the end. where the alter is there is per tnd. I read and I quote.

And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
14 And he shall offer his offering unto the Lord, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,
15 And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.
16 And the priest shall bring them before the Lord, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering:
17 And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering.
18 And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.

so then why is taught then the temple need to built when the alter and so forth from moses will do?

where was the alter then? in the temple! that I why I said that. where will it be per your doctrine? the third temple in Ezekiel.

 

[Ryan]

where the alter is there is. if it ends sorry that is listed there at the end. where the alter is there is per tnd. I read and I quote.



so then why is taught then the temple need to built when the alter and so forth from moses will do?

where was the alter then? in the temple! that I why I said that. where will it be per your doctrine? the third temple in Ezekiel.

Where else will he be able to complete it?

 

[jasoncran]

that is because it was prophecied and he was number amongst the transgessors. I can see why you want to go that way but I disagree with that. jesus drank wine. and was accused of being a winebibbler by the Pharisees. he didn't deny that.

he drank with them at the first communion.

I will ask my leadership on that. I know one who would know and used to teach at liberty.

 

[jasoncran]

Where else will he be able to complete it?

so jesus must offer a sin offering for himself per that vow?

 

[Ryan]

that is because it was prophecied and he was number amongst the transgessors. I can see why you want to go that way but I disagree with that. jesus drank wine. and was accused of being a winebibbler by the Pharisees. he didn't deny that.

he drank with them at the first communion.

I will ask my leadership on that. I know one who would know and used to teach at liberty.

I am not saying Jesus didn't drink wine. But when he made that vow, he in essence became a Nazarite and from that point forward, could not drink anymore fermented drink. That is why he said "I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

 

[jasoncran]

uhm that cant be as he wrote the law then he can break it? yes God can do that. but that isn't the way you make it sound. I take that verse to mean I wont be able drink since im going to non-corporeal form.

God the father in heaven need not eat nor drink those are allusions to earthly things so that we can grasp the message. ie the mansions in heaven and also the feast in heaven.

any jew would get those meanings easily. considering the chuppa!

 

[Ryan]

so jesus must offer a sin offering for himself per that vow?

Did he not kill an animal to cover for Adam and Eve's sin? Did he not get baptized, even though he was perfect. I still haven't wrapped my head around this one yet to be honest. But if it was prescribed in the Torah, and is a requirement, then yes. More study will be required, but who is the Prince in Ezekiel 45?

Ezek. 45:17: 'It shall be the Prince's part to provide the Burnt Offerings, the Grain Offerings and the Wine Offerings, at the Feasts, on the New Moons and on the Sabbaths, at all the appointed Feasts of the House of Israel. He shall provide the Sin Offering, the Grain Offering, the Burnt Offering and the Peace Offerings, to make atonement for the House of Israel.'

Ezek. 45:18: 'Thus says the Lord Yahveh, In the first month, on the first of the month, you shall take a young bull without blemish and cleanse the Sanctuary.'

Ezek. 45:19: 'The Priest shall take some of the blood from the Sin Offering and put it on the door posts of the House, on the four corners of the ledge of the Altar and on the posts of the gate of the Inner Court.'

Ezek. 45:20-21: 'Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive. So you shall make atonement for the House. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a Feast of seven days. Unleavened bread shall be eaten.'

Ezek. 45:22: 'On that day the Prince shall provide for Himself and all the People of the Land a bull for a Sin Offering.'

Ezek. 45:23: 'During the seven days of the Feast, He shall provide as a Burnt Offering to Yahveh, seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a Sin Offering.'

Ezek. 45:24: 'He shall provide as a Grain Offering an ephah with a bull, an ephah with a ram and a hin of oil with an ephah.'

Ezek. 45:25: 'In the seventh month, on the fifteenth day of the month, at the Feast, He shall provide like this, seven days for the Sin Offering, the Burnt Offering, the grain offering and the oil.'​

 

[jasoncran]

for his own sin that is. he was baptized and etc because to set an example. the issue there did and jesus have to offer a sin offering for his OWN sins.

that isn't the messiah.why? because if he is then he must offers sin offering for the people and himself.
to the FATHER. the father there is mentioned. his glory and his name. in the tanach.whenever GOD speaks its the father not the son.any vision or appeareance is the son of course.
so then no that can be.this messiah of yours would have to atone daily for the sins or yearly and well that is problematic as the book of Hebrews say that he is above that fraility of needing to go yearly. he did that for us at the cross.

sorry,the atonement per

For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

that implies that Christ is above the Aaronic priesthood.the priest offers it not the prince!

7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

sorry that need to intercede for the sins of the jews and the gentiles is done at the cross when Christ died. you make it sound like isreal is above the cross.

 

[Deborah13]

..it also says, 'in Cenchrea, for he had a vow' (Acts 18.18).

The grammar apparently fits for it to refer possibly to Aquila. Although it's generally taken to mean Paul. There is a manuscript which also has an alternative suggesting that it was Priscilla who shaved her head, although it probably wasn't the case, even though according to Numbers 6 it could have been a woman shaving her head for a Nazarite vow, too.

It seems to me there is somewhere where Paul buys the sacrifices for other men to take this vow but it's not clear if he did it too. I thought he did because of shaving his head.

 

[farouk]

It seems to me there is somewhere where Paul buys the sacrifices for other men to take this vow but it's not clear if he did it too. I thought he did because of shaving his head.

Deborah13:

I think it's good to remember anyway that in terms of Numbers 6, at any rate, it could have been either Paul or Aquila or Priscilla that shaved his or her head.

Though it was probably Paul.

And I'm sure I've read in commentary somewhere that this was what it is assumed that Paul was doing in later going to the temple.

 

[Ryan]

for his own sin that is. he was baptized and etc because to set an example. the issue there did and jesus have to offer a sin offering for his OWN sins.

that isn't the messiah.why? because if he is then he must offers sin offering for the people and himself.
to the FATHER. the father there is mentioned. his glory and his name. in the tanach.whenever GOD speaks its the father not the son.any vision or appeareance is the son of course.
so then no that can be.this messiah of yours would have to atone daily for the sins or yearly and well that is problematic as the book of Hebrews say that he is above that fraility of needing to go yearly. he did that for us at the cross.

sorry,the atonement per



that implies that Christ is above the Aaronic priesthood.the priest offers it not the prince!



sorry that need to intercede for the sins of the jews and the gentiles is done at the cross when Christ died. you make it sound like isreal is above the cross.

One didn't have to offer a "sin offering" necessarily for sin. Consider Mary requiring to bring bring an offering to complete the purification process. Was it for sin? No. It was just part of the purification. No big deal.

 

[jasoncran]

that doesn't help you I have read and quoted the prophet clearly and here is where it says.

[
9 Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:
16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.
20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.
21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.
23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord God.
28 And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.

his sin ,meaning that Priests and is high priest must do what the earlier priests did. sorry that is why I cant buy your position. that priest must atone first for himself then enter to atone for others. sorry that cant be Christ finished that.

dee, when you read the book of Leviticus you should see Christ if you are reading it correctly

that is what I told a newborn babe in Christ. the torah points us to the LORD and reflects his nature.

 

[farouk]

The various Levitical offerings weren't necessarily for sin, anyway.

This is why those who interpret Ezekiel as showing a rebuilt temple in the Millennium are not at all advocating any sense of sin sacrifices (which would otherwise impinge upon the sufficiency of the Lord Jesus' work at the Cross.)

 

[jasoncran]

sorry farouk that cant be. why? then you might want to rip out those sections of the bible where they mirror each other in language

never mind that clear part wher God says the priests of zadok that didn't go astray and where are they today?

Leviticus 21

King James Version (KJV)

21 And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people:
2 But for his kin, that is near unto him, that is, for his mother, and for his father, and for his son, and for his daughter, and for his brother.
3 And for his sister a virgin, that is nigh unto him, which hath had no husband; for her may he be defiled.
4 But he shall not defile himself, being a chief man among his people, to profane himself.
5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.
6 They shall be holy unto their God, and not profane the name of their God: for the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and the bread of their God, they do offer: therefore they shall be holy.
7 They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he is holy unto his God.
8 Thou shalt sanctify him therefore; for he offereth the bread of thy God: he shall be holy unto thee: for I the Lord, which sanctify you, am holy.
9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
10 And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;
11 Neither shall he go in to any dead body, nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother;
12 Neither shall he go out of the sanctuary, nor profane the sanctuary of his God; for the crown of the anointing oil of his God is upon him: I am the Lord.
13 And he shall take a wife in her virginity.
14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.
15 Neither shall he profane his seed among his people: for I the Lord do sanctify him.
16 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the Lord do sanctify them.
24 And Moses told it unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel.

almost word for word on what the priest was to do!

so how can it be changed then to only a worship when he lists what they were to do?

 

[farouk]

sorry farouk that cant be. why? then you might want to rip out those sections of the bible where they mirror each other in language

never mind that clear part wher God says the priests of zadok that didn't go astray and where are they today?



almost word for word on what the priest was to do!

so how can it be changed then to only a worship when he lists what they were to do?

I don't understand your point.

After the finished sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 9 & 10), any further sacrifices cannot be sin atoning.

After the church has gone at the Rapture, but when Israel is in the land in the Millennium, there are some Scripures, including in Ezekiel which seem to speak of a rebuilt temple and where sacrifices are made. Often these are explained in terms of offerings connected with worship rather than supposedly sin atoning ones.

(This is what I was referring to.)

 

[jasoncran]

sorry it doesn't. reread the book from chapter 40-46 and then tell me that.it mentions that zeke was to tell isreal in capitivity to repent and if they do then I will end their captivity and when they do build this temple and have those priests do that. its a conditional promise and history shows isreal didn't follow through.

 

[farouk]

sorry it doesn't. reread the book from chapter 40-46 and then tell me that.it mentions that zeke was to tell isreal in capitivity to repent and if they do then I will end their captivity and when they do build this temple and have those priests do that. its a conditional promise and history shows isreal didn't follow through.

It depends really whether one sees clearly prophetic Scripture as being part of one linear timeline, referring to an unbroken series of events.

Often Scripture promises can have their multiple fulfilment.

Personally I am strongly of the view that the Lord Jesus's finished sacrifice for sin is complete for all time; Hebrews and other passages clearly say so. Not all sacrifices in Scripture, such as Levitical offerings, are for sin, though.

 

[jasoncran]

sorry that isn't found in the bible.

first off the alter had to be cleansed daily and a sin offering first for the land then any other freewill offering was to be offerend and that is mentioned. I don't cherry pick verse. the idea of levite is done. if cant see that clearly please pray for that to be shown. paul makes the idea of a levite in a temple and also jesus does as well with worship. he says the hour is coming and now is where they that worship the father shall neither worship in this mountain nor Jerusalem.

the levites offer up sin sacrifices. question

how can a gentile visit jesus then in millennium?