Christianity VS Islam - who started the battle?

[JacobBoheme]

And yet his followers wore real swords at their waste.

I believe they did this at first because they misunderstood Jesus. Jesus later corrected them when Peter tried to use the sword he purchased because of his misunderstanding. I believe he waited until that moment to correct them because he knew it would have more of an impact when revealed in that manner in the heat of what could have been a battle to the death. This is why we never hear of the Apostles or their successors carrying physical swords after this in the NT. In fact we see them going to martyrdom rather than trying to kill their assailants.

Jesus certainly didn't turn the other cheek at the temple.

"So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables." John 2:15

He did overturn some tables and drive animals out with a whip. I don't see that as a sign that we shouldn't turn the other cheek though. It was a symbolic gesture intending to draw attention to a wrong (making His Fathers temple a for profit business) in fulfillment of a prophecy.

"For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." James 1:20
"For mans anger does not bring about the righteous life" NIV James 1:20

Christ of course was not only man he was also God. We on the other hand are man and our wrath or anger doesn't work the the righteousness of God.

 

[pHghost]

that in no way negates teh overwhelming majority of the Islamic world that oppresses non-muslims.

How about a quote from the Qur'an on this, if you are so set on believing that.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion.
(Surah 2:256)

You might counter with the jihad, but look at the introduction to the passage many consider as calling for jihad:

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed, God does not like transgressors.
(Surah 2:190)

Fight those that fight you. It is quite clearly stated that a Muslim should not start the fight. And not only that:

And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
(Surah 2:192)

If they cease the attack, a true Muslim should stop the fighting.

So, as noted before, any fighting between the Christians and Muslims was a push by humans lusting for more power, wealth and land, not anything to do with the core tenets of any of the two religions.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

How about a quote from the Qur'an on this, if you are so set on believing that.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion.
(Surah 2:256)

You might counter with the jihad, but look at the introduction to the passage many consider as calling for jihad:

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed, God does not like transgressors.
(Surah 2:190)

Fight those that fight you. It is quite clearly stated that a Muslim should not start the fight. And not only that:

And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
(Surah 2:192)

If they cease the attack, a true Muslim should stop the fighting.

So, as noted before, any fighting between the Christians and Muslims was a push by humans lusting for more power, wealth and land, not anything to do with the core tenets of any of the two religions.

And yet Muhammad himself forced conversion at the point of a sword. Satan is the king of lies, is it surprising that his prophet would be a hypocrite?

 

[pHghost]

And yet Muhammad himself forced conversion at the point of a sword.

Any proof of that?

 

[JJsaint]

Who started it?

The lying heretic Muhammed. Who started the actual fighting? The Muslims, of course.

Christianity is a religion of peace, whereas Islam has a host of verses in its book about killing non-Muslims. I think we can see which side would actually strike a blow against the other.

Christianity is a religion of peace?

The middle ages was a savage and brutal place to live due to the Church...
The Church who killed heretics or anyone who stood against them....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

Luke 22:38:And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Jesus told his followers to buy a sword.

Exodus 15:3:The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Also....Judaism is a religion of anti-Christianity,it never ceases to amaze me that Christians are OK with that.....or try to ignore ''that part'' to the best of their ability...

 

[ChristianNationalist]

The Banu Qurayza eventually surrendered; according to Ibn Ishaq, all the men apart from a few who converted to Islam were beheaded, while the women and children were enslaved.

And some more evidence of the ruthlessness of Muhammad:

Muhammad expelled from Medina the Banu Qaynuqa, one of three main Jewish tribes.[12] Although Muhammad wanted them executed, Abd-Allah ibn Ubaiy chief of the Khazraj tribe did not agree and they were expelled to Syria but without their property.

When Muhammad heard of men massing with hostile intentions against Medina, he reacted with severity.[124] One example is the assassination of Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, a chieftain of the Jewish tribe of Banu Nadir who had gone to Mecca and written poems that helped rouse the Meccans' grief, anger and desire for revenge after the Battle of Badr.

source

He was also ruled by lust:

"Western criticism" has focused especially on the marriage of Muhammad to Zaynab bint Jahsh, the divorced wife of Zayd ibn Harithah, an ex-slave whom Muhammad had adopted as his son.[25] The story goes that [26] "One day Muhammad went out looking for Zayd. There was a covering of haircloth over the doorway, but the wind had lifted the covering so that the doorway was uncovered. Zaynab was in her chamber, undressed, and admiration for her entered the heart of the Prophet. After that Allah made her unattractive to Zayd.'"

some more savagery:

Muhammad is also criticised for the mass killing of the men of the Banu Qurayza, a Jewish tribe of Medina. The tribe was accused of having engaged in treasonous agreements with the enemies besieging Medina in the Battle of the Trench in 627.[30][31] Ibn Ishaq writes that Muhammad approved the beheading of some 600-900 individuals who surrendered unconditionally after a siege that lasted several weeks.[27] (Also see Bukhari 5:59:362) (Yusuf Ali notes that the Qur'an discusses this battle in verses [Quran 33:10]).[32] They were buried in a mass grave in the Medina market place. The women and children were sold into slavery.

source

 

[JacobBoheme]

Christianity is a religion of peace?

The middle ages was a savage and brutal place to live due to the Church...
The Church who killed heretics or anyone who stood against them....

The answer would depend on how you define "Christianity." If by Christianity you are speaking of the tradition / religion Jesus actually taught in the canonical Gospels then it would be a religion of peace. If it's meant in the more sociological sense of whatever people who self identify as Christian call "Christian" then it would be a mixed bag. Much of what goes under the name "Christian" is simply worldliness given the cover of the sacred.

 

[JJsaint]

The answer would depend on how you define "Christianity." If by Christianity you are speaking of the tradition / religion Jesus actually taught in the canonical Gospels then it would be a religion of peace. If it's meant in the more sociological sense of whatever people who self identify as Christian call "Christian" then it would be a mixed bag. Much of what goes under the name "Christian" is simply worldliness given the cover of the sacred.

Really? a religion of peace?

Luke 19:27:But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Matthew 10:34:Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

 

[BELIEVER !]

Sarah's lack of trust in God might be a starting place..

Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

I think the whole thing started with Abraham. He was promised a child and after 25 years of waiting decided to take matters into his own hands. He has Ishmael with his handmaiden Hagar. But, Ishmael was not the child of promise. Issac, who was born of Sarah was the child of promise whom God had made the covernent with. The problem started right there. The Jewish people came from the line of Issac and the Palestinian people came from the line of Ishmael. The Jews today believe the land they have been fighting over belongs to them because it was promised through Issac. The Palestinians believe the land is theirs through Ishmael. The Palestinians do not want a 2 state solution. They want Israel gone.

 

[JacobBoheme]

Luke 19:27:But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

That isn't a commandment given to the Apostles to kill anyone. It was a line from a parable Jesus was making use of. If you notice none of the Apostles took it in the sense of an order being given them to physically kill people. Rather than killing their enemies they submitted to martyrdom instead. True, Peter once did try to kill an enemy of Jesus but Jesus told him to put his sword back because those who live by the sword die by the sword. That coupled with the context of the statement and it's location in a parable are important factors to take into consideration imo.

Matthew 10:34:Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Following the path of justice and peace stirs up the hatred of the world. Those who hate the light will wage war against it when it manifests itself in people. There is also the inner spiritual battle that Christ may be referencing here as well. Paul explains what our sword is [ the Sword of the Spirit] because we "wrestle not against flesh and blood" but against principalities and powers of darkness (i.e. the demons). It's only the enemies of Christ who may be driven by their passions to wage physical battle against Christians but the reverse isn't been hinted at or called for.

 

[JJsaint]

That isn't a commandment given to the Apostles to kill anyone. It was a line from a parable Jesus was making use of. If you notice none of the Apostles took it in the sense of an order being given them to physically kill people. Rather than killing their enemies they submitted to martyrdom instead. True, Peter once did try to kill an enemy of Jesus but Jesus told him to put his sword back because those who live by the sword die by the sword. That coupled with the context of the statement and it's location in a parable are important factors to take into consideration imo.

Following the path of justice and peace stirs up the hatred of the world. Those who hate the light will wage war against it when it manifests itself in people. There is also the inner spiritual battle that Christ may be referencing here as well. Paul explains what our sword is [ the Sword of the Spirit] because we "wrestle not against flesh and blood" but against principalities and powers of darkness (i.e. the demons). It's only the enemies of Christ who may be driven by their passions to wage physical battle against Christians but the reverse isn't been hinted at or called for.

1) Why would Jesus mention it in a parable if it was not important
2)Jesus told his followers to buy a sword (Luke 22:36)

 

[Free]

1) Why would Jesus mention it in a parable if it was not important
2)Jesus told his followers to buy a sword (Luke 22:36)

A couple of verses do not a doctrine make. Look at how much Jesus spoke against violence. Everything needs to be taken in context. Christianity is a religion of peace

 

[JJsaint]

A couple of verses do not a doctrine make. Look at how much Jesus spoke against violence. Everything needs to be taken in context. Christianity is a religion of peace

That is make Christianity a religion of Pacifism.
People want to make Christianity a religion of people by ignoring the sword or the fact....

Exodus 15:3:The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Luke 22:36-38:36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


Was that not an instruction? How many people follow that instruction today?



Do you own a sword?


Luke 19:27:But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Do you know who the enemies of Jesus are today?




Point out where Jesus spoke against violence....

 

[Free]

That is make Christianity a religion of Pacifism.
People want to make Christianity a religion of people by ignoring the sword or the fact....

Exodus 15:3:The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Luke 22:36-38:36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


Was that not an instruction? How many people follow that instruction today?



Do you own a sword?


Luke 19:27:But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Do you know who the enemies of Jesus are today?




Point out where Jesus spoke against violence....

Matt 5:5-12, 5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (NKJV)

Matt 5:38-48, 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (NKJV)

For starters.

 

[JJsaint]

Matt 5:5-12, 5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (NKJV)

Matt 5:38-48, 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (NKJV)

For starters.

Love your enemies = personal enemies,not the governments,or other people's enemies.

Unless of course you love Communists,Pagans,Homosexuals,anti-Christians and all the enemies of the government?

''love your enemies'' -----No other person's enemies.

''But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also''

When a guy come up to you with a knife - will you defend yourself or let him stab you through?
Or would you interpret that as a literal hand slap?

According that verse - YOU SHOULD NOT DEFEND YOURSELF



Luke 22:36-38:36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


Jesus told his followers to buy a sword - YOU CANNOT IGNORE THAT.




Luke 19:27:But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


This was obviously mentioned in the parable for a reason - DO YOU KNOW THAT REASON?

 

[Mike]

Let's stay on topic. This isn't another thread about whether violence in response to violence is Biblical. It's about who started the violence.

Thanks.

 

[Stormcrow]

Christianity is a religion of peace...

Many are the paths to peace. War is one of them. Jesus didn't say, "Blessed are the peace lovers." He said, "Blessed are the peace makers."

Violence is a perfectly appropriate Christian response to those who would harm or threaten to harm others.

Ooops. Should've read Mike's post first. Sorry.