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Christians go thru the tribulation

L

LastDayRemnant

Guest
The bible is clear about us going thru the tribulation. Please read all of this carefully.
I believed for many years myself in the pre-trib theory, but the bible doesn't teach it and if you let the Lord show you the truth, then he will. First, lets look at the scripture the pre-tribbers use to stand on.

Rev, chapter 3

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

And verse 10 is the one they stand on,

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

It is clear that verse 10 is only referring to the church in Philadelphia , and that church only. And this scripture to the Philadephia church was fulfilled when in the 7th century every church in Asia Minor was destroyed by the Mohammedans except for the church at Philadelphia.



What did Jesus say about when the Rapture occurs.


Matt. 24,
3 And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

READ 15 AGAIN !

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE ANTICHRIST


16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

READ 21 AGAIN
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

READ 22 AGAIN
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.



27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

READ ABOUT HOW ALL WILL SEE IT IN VERSE 27

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

READ 29 AGAIN.....AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

AND VERSES 30 and 31 ARE THE RAPTURE

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

NOTICE IN VERSE 31 THAT HE IS GATHERING HIS ELECT!
At the last trumpet sound , he will gather his elect. IT IS GOING TO BE A LOUD EVENT. It says with a GREAT TRUMPET SOUND.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

THIS IS NO SECRET EVENT EITHER, READ THE LAST PART OF VERSE 29 AGAIN
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

DOES THE WHOLE WORLD SEE IT?....YES, READ THE LAST PART OF VERSE 30 AGAIN
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

OK, LETS GO BACK TO VERSE 22 AGAIN AND SEE WHO THE ELECT IS THAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.
The elect are Christians as proven by these scriptures in the New Testament.

Romans, 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's ELECT? It is God that justifieth.

Col, 3:12
12 Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

11 tim, 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the ELECT'S sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The elect are Christians here.
So according to Jesus words the Christians will be going thru the tribulation.

The tribulation isn't seven years as some think, remember the antichrist is only given power for 42 months (3 and 1/2 years)

Daniel, 7:25

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (3 and 1/2 years)

Rev, 13:5

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

What will the Antichrist do with his power? He immediately starts killing off Christians.

Daniel ,7:25
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,

Rev, 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

He has the power to kill 1/4th of the worlds population.

Rev, 6:8

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Many think that the 144,000 jews that are sealed by God become evangelists and many people are saved after the rapture. There is not one scripture that backs this up. In fact it says no one repents after the rapture. Read what it says after the church is gone and God is pouring out his wrath.

Rev, 9:20-21

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet REPENTED NOT of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 NEITHER REPENTED they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev, 16:11

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and REPENTED NOT of their deeds.

THERE IS NO REPENTENCE AFTER THE BRIDE OF CHRIST IS GONE.

Now we will get into when the rapture takes place.

I have shown you that the antichrist only has power for 42 months(3 and 1/2 years).
So what happens after that 42 months is over?

Will we know when the rapture takes place? We know that the antichrist only rules for 42 months so it will be around that time, and Jesus said he was gonna cut those days short or no flesh would be saved.

Matt, 24:22
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Everyone knows this scripture about the Thief in the night.

1st Thessalonians 5:2

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

But they don't read the next few verses.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS , THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The Lords return will come as a thief in the night to the world, but we will be waiting for his return.

Now lets go to the rapture event itself.

Here is how Jesus describes his coming.

Matt, 24

Verse 27 describes it as lightning shing from the east to the west.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Verse 29 says the sun darkens, the moon doesn't give her light , the stars fall from heaven and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Verse 30 speaks for itself.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And verse 31 is the gathering of the saints. The rapture at the last trumpet sound.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now lets compare what Jesus just described to Rev. chapter 6 verses 12-17

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

As you can see this is the same event.

Now starts the last 3 and 1/2 years which is the wrath of God.

Verses 16 and 17 confirm it with present tense.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Verse 17 says his wrath IS come....present tense, and from here on out the antichrist is not in control.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now God takes over from here on out.

Also the rapture itself may take several minutes or more to complete. Yes, in the twinkling of an eye our bodys will become incorruptible, but let's look at what happens during the rapture. The rapture is when the sixth seal is opened and before anything else happens after the rapture God puts his seal on the 144,000 Jews.

Rev, chapter 7
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Then it goes on to list the 12 tribes.
Next it shows the Church in heaven.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes
 
First let me welcome you to our fourms :angel:

Then let me ask you what position you hold on the rapture? I and a couple others on this site believe in a pre-wrath rapture of the church. So all that you have posted so far I agree with . :wink:
 
Judy said:
First let me welcome you to our fourms :angel:

Then let me ask you what position you hold on the rapture? I and a couple others on this site believe in a pre-wrath rapture of the church. So all that you have posted so far I agree with . :wink:

Thank you for the welcome Judy. Yes , i am pre wrath. I believe the first 3 1/2 years are the tribulation because the bible says the beast only has power for 42 months. I believe the last 3 1/2 years are the wrath of God and we are gone before then. I believe the rapture happens at the midway point of the seven years. The sixth chapter of revelation clearly shows this.
 
Well, now I have to disagree :sad The abomination of desolation doesn't happen until the mid point of the 7 years scripture is clear on that. When we see the abomination of desolation happen "then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"
The Antichrist has power for 42 months, but God will cut that short and we see this with the sixth seal, God seals the 144,000 for their protection and then we see a Great multitude that no one could number. Which I believe to be the raptured church.
I see the rapture happening somewhere after the mid point. Something like this.......

____________________________7 Years___________________________

_____First 3 1/2______________Abomination_____second 3 1/2________
____________________________Great Trib_____^rapture_____
______the first 3 seals_________4th/5th seal_____6th seal/God cuts short
 
Ok Judy, i will explain it best i can. Yes the The abomination of desolation shows up at the midway point. He is the antichrist who made the peace treaty with israel.

Daniel,chapter 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

He then breaks the covenant and then steps into the temple as God.

Matt, 24
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The antichrist only makes a peace treaty with Israel.
It says he overcomes the saints.

Daniel ,7:25
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,

Rev, 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

. Nowhere does it say he makes any kind of peace with the saints. He immediately starts killing them off. So his 3 and 1/2 years of power starts when he shows up.

When he steps into the temple after breaking his covenant with Israel ,then they join the Christians in the tribulation. But they won't be in it long before Christ returns. The seal of God is put on the 144,000 to protect them from the wrath of God, not from the antichrist. Just look at the sixth seal and you see it is the rapture and the marking of the 144,000. Then the seventh seal starts the wrath of God. the 144,000 are protected after that. I used to think they way you do about this, but the the fact that the antichrist kills christians and has no time for a peace treaty with them to me just doesn't allow the time frame to work.
 
Antichrist doesn't start his rampage until the abomination of desolation that is when he demands the world worship him and receive his mark. And that is when the "Great Tribulation" starts..... not the 3 1/2 years before that.
The sealing of the 144,000 come when the God cuts short the persecution of both the saints and Jews at the hands of Antichrist. The sealing of the 144,000 is for their protection form God's wrath which is about to start... we see this in Rev. 6:17 with the announcement that God's wrath is about to begin. Then the Church is raptured because we will not go through God's wrath. And I believe the Church is the Great Multitude that no one could number that is standing before the throne...
I believe that the day of the Lord's wrath starts with signs in the the Sun, the moon and the stars... I also believe that the whole 7 years is not the great tribulation.. We don't see that term until the abomination of desolation.
 
Judy said:
Antichrist doesn't start his rampage until the abomination of desolation that is when he demands the world worship him and receive his mark. And that is when the "Great Tribulation" starts..... not the 3 1/2 years before that.

Judy, We seem to agree on everything except when the antichrist starts his rampage as you call it. :) It is not possible for him to wait until the abomination of desolation. He kills off 1/4 of the worlds population.(Christians). The reason why is the time frame i was talking about but didn't explain very well. He only has power for 42 months. If he waited until halfway thru the seven years then his power is no longer according to God. Like i said nowhere does he make a peace treaty with the christians. It says he overcomes them and wears them out. His power starts immediately when he shows up which is proven by the fact that he is able to make a peace treaty with Israel. The time frame doesn't allow for the tribulation to start after 3 1/2 years. To the Christians it will start immediately,but to the Jews it will start at the abomination of desolation which won't last for very long with them. There are two issues going on with the antichrist. The Jews and Christians are dealt with seperately until abomination of desolation. Jesus said in Matt that he would cut it short for the "elects sake", not for the Jews sake. And i showed before who the elect is according to the word of God.
 
There are two issues going on with the antichrist. The Jews and Christians are dealt with seperately until abomination of desolation. Jesus said in Matt that he would cut it short for the "elects sake", not for the Jews sake. And i showed before who the elect is according to the word of God.

Yes, I do know that there are two issues going on. And I do know who the elect are. Antichrist will persecute the christians and Jews. But the Jews will also have to endure God's wrath except for the 144,000 faithful Jews.

I will add to this a little later I need to get dinner stated.. :wink:
 
Judy, i'm gonna give you a scenario of what could happen and it would line up with the word of God. Remember this is just hypothetical.

The bible says the antichrist makes a seven year peace treaty with Israel and then breaks it in the middle.

Daniel, 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It says midst of the week. That doesn't to me make it have to be the exact day in the middle of the seven years. Lets say he breaks it 3 months early from the exact middle. That could still be considered the midst of the seven years. So after he breaks it 3 months from the middle it says there will be tribulation as never seen before and will never be seen again. We know that he is already killing off the saints since he took power, and that he had to be in power to be able to make a treaty with Israel. We also know Jesus said he would cut his days (the antichrist) short for the elects sake. So the antichrist breaks the treaty at 39 months.
Jesus said that those living in Judaea need to get out of Dodge and head to the mountains. Get out and get out fast.

Matthew, 24
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

But it won't be for long ,as say for instance Jesus cuts those days short by 6 weeks. Then that would make the antichrist be killing Jews for 6 weeks.
Whatever length it is, it's not gonna be for long. There are 2 ways to interpret what Jesus says by the great tribulation. One is that the tribulation is only that short period of time there with the Jews. There maybe isn't a name for when he is wearing out the saints.(us) The second way to interpret it is that he is actually saying the tribulation is intensified to the point where nothing like it will ever be seen again once Nero steps into the temple as God. We do know that he only has power for 42 months (at the most since Jesus will shorten it). This makes everything work out in the time frame. Hopefully this makes sense to you.
 
Hey you two, this is a great debate. I am not a pre-tribber either, but that does not mean I agree with everything you have stated - doesn't matter. Here is my question, just to stir things up a bit:

Why does everyone assume that the seven year contract of the antichrist is the same seven year period as the seventieth week of Daniel? Do they have to be the same period? If not, then does that significantly change our understanding of the end times?

And kudos to LastDayRemnant for his/her recognition that 'in the midst' does not have to mean exactly in the middle. Just like saying "I awoke in the middle of the night" - I usually mean that I awoke sometime in the night, not exactly in the middle.
 
dcookcan said:
Hey you two, this is a great debate. I am not a pre-tribber either, but that does not mean I agree with everything you have stated - doesn't matter. Here is my question, just to stir things up a bit:

Why does everyone assume that the seven year contract of the antichrist is the same seven year period as the seventieth week of Daniel? Do they have to be the same period? If not, then does that significantly change our understanding of the end times?

And kudos to LastDayRemnant for his/her recognition that 'in the midst' does not have to mean exactly in the middle. Just like saying "I awoke in the middle of the night" - I usually mean that I awoke sometime in the night, not exactly in the middle.

My only answer to your question would be if the antichrist isn't in the last seven years of the the seventy, then when could the last seven exist? After the tribulation you have the rapture, then the wrath of God. Then the millinium. It doesn't seem there is a place for the last seven years to fit in anywhere else after the antichrist. Also, what makes the antichrists seven year peace treaty significant? He could have made a thirty year peace treaty and then broke it after 3 years or so. Why seven? I don't look for the antichrist to just show up some day and start killing off Christians. I think he will show up after a nuclear holocaust in which all the main powers are destroyed. US,Britain, etc. Russia will be destroyed by God when they attack Israel as in Ezekiel, 38&39. Some how the christians will be blamed for all the problems.
 
Just a quick two cents.

I've read stuff on all the theories of the rapture timing and such for years and years. I am definately pre-Trib and totally convinced of it.

Nothing and I mean NOTHING will change my mind.

Stay and go through the Tribulation if you want....

I'm going out in the first load!
:wink:
 
Soteriagal said:
Just a quick two cents.

I've read stuff on all the theories of the rapture timing and such for years and years. I am definately pre-Trib and totally convinced of it.

Nothing and I mean NOTHING will change my mind.

Stay and go through the Tribulation if you want....

I'm going out in the first load!
:wink:

Can you share scripture that shows your pre-trib rapture??
 
Soteriagal said:
Just a quick two cents.

I've read stuff on all the theories of the rapture timing and such for years and years. I am definately pre-Trib and totally convinced of it.

Nothing and I mean NOTHING will change my mind.

Stay and go through the Tribulation if you want....

I'm going out in the first load!
:wink:

You mean scripture won't change your mind. There is not one scripture to back pre-trib, not one. But there are plenty to show we will face the antichrist. And i was a pre-tribber for many years. The Lord will show you the truth if you let him.
 
I haven't forgotten you LastDayRemnant, I do intend to post somemore on this topic when I get the time... :wink:
 
LastDayRemnant said:
]You mean scripture won't change your mind. There is not one scripture to back pre-trib, not one. But there are plenty to show we will face the antichrist. And i was a pre-tribber for many years. The Lord will show you the truth if you let him. [/size]

Sorry we must be reading different Bibles!
 
Soteriagal said:
LastDayRemnant said:
]You mean scripture won't change your mind. There is not one scripture to back pre-trib, not one. But there are plenty to show we will face the antichrist. And i was a pre-tribber for many years. The Lord will show you the truth if you let him. [/size]

Sorry we must be reading different Bibles!

Please, by all means show me the scriptures proving a pre-trib rapture.
Just one.......I welcome it.
 
Soteriagal said:
Just a quick two cents.

I've read stuff on all the theories of the rapture timing and such for years and years. I am definately pre-Trib and totally convinced of it.

Nothing and I mean NOTHING will change my mind.

Stay and go through the Tribulation if you want....

I'm going out in the first load!
:wink:

Please, convince me of a pre-trib rapture :wink: It easy for you to say someone else's position is wrong, but can you use scripture to convince me that a pre trib rapture is the right position??
 
1 Thes.
13Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope.
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep.
15For this we declare to you by the Lord's [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.
17Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!
18Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words.

[Wouldn't be very comforting words if we were going throught the tribulation would it?]

1 Cor.
51Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed)
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).
53For this perishable [part of us] must put on the imperishable [nature], and this mortal [part of us, this nature that is capable of dying] must put on immortality (freedom from death).

2 Thes.
2Do not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.
3Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away (apostasia is "departure [of the church]) of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

Jude 1
14bBehold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)

[That would be the saints, or believers, which were raptured from the earth seven years prior]

The Tribulation is for God's last judgment on the earth, not for believers. After Rev. 4, there is no mention of the church until we return with Jesus. That is because we aren't HERE. Like Noah, like Lot, we are TAKEN OUT OF THE EARTH, away from God's wrath upon it.

1 Thes 5
9For God has NOT appointed us to [incur His] wrath, but [that we might] obtain [His] salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)

Romans 5
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Rev. 3
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

These are just a small smattering of verses and teachings. There are tons of books and web information out there that go into much more detail, showing the other raptures, such as Enoch and Elijah, the prophecies, types, shadows, much more information that I can or would want to post here.

MARANATHA!
 
Soteriagal said:
1 Thes.
13Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope.
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep.
15For this we declare to you by the Lord's [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.
17Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!
18Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words.

[Wouldn't be very comforting words if we were going throught the tribulation would it?]

1 Cor.
51Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed)
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).
53For this perishable [part of us] must put on the imperishable [nature], and this mortal [part of us, this nature that is capable of dying] must put on immortality (freedom from death).

2 Thes.
2Do not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.
3Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away (apostasia is "departure [of the church]) of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

Jude 1
14bBehold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)

[That would be the saints, or believers, which were raptured from the earth seven years prior]

The Tribulation is for God's last judgment on the earth, not for believers. After Rev. 4, there is no mention of the church until we return with Jesus. That is because we aren't HERE. Like Noah, like Lot, we are TAKEN OUT OF THE EARTH, away from God's wrath upon it.

1 Thes 5
9For God has NOT appointed us to [incur His] wrath, but [that we might] obtain [His] salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)

Romans 5
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Rev. 3
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

These are just a small smattering of verses and teachings. There are tons of books and web information out there that go into much more detail, showing the other raptures, such as Enoch and Elijah, the prophecies, types, shadows, much more information that I can or would want to post here.

MARANATHA!

Not one verse you just quoted said anything about the rapture coming before tribulation...not one. They do say about us not facing the wrath of God and i believe that. The wrath of God happens after the rapture.

As far as 2nd thess, you had better read it again.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


It says Jesus will not return until after that man of sin be revealed first. In other words, we will see him.
 
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