Christians go thru the tribulation

[slanglep]

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE ANTICHRIST

Yeah too bad we are already gone. That is speaking of Israel and those left behind not the Church.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Symbolic Jesus sounds a trumpet and says come up hither to John right after the 7 letters.

We are not the TARES

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Seriously do you guys even "know" Christ or just know of him?

I don't see how any Christian that truly knows God thinks we are going through the tribulation. He loves us and would not put us through it. I just hope he lets me chuckle at all of you while you watch from Heaven.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE ANTICHRIST

Yeah too bad we are already gone. That is speaking of Israel and those left behind not the Church.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Symbolic Jesus sounds a trumpet and says come up hither to John right after the 7 letters. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

How you get that the angel was talking to the church there when he was CLEARLY talking to John is beyond me. You are really reaching to come up with that. John was being shown the vision, not the church.

We are not the TARES

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

What does not being the tares have to do with going thru the tribulation?
It said we are seperated at the judgement day.

Seriously do you guys even "know" Christ or just know of him?
I don't see how any Christian that truly knows God thinks we are going through the tribulation. He loves us and would not put us through it. I just hope he lets me chuckle at all of you while you watch from Heaven.

So in your opinion did the apostles know Jesus ? Or did the millions and millions of Christians that have been martyred over the years really know Jesus? Did they think that God would never put them thru that? You are living in a dream world thinking that way.

 

[Cameron]

LastDayRemants has some good points here. So thake what I'm saying as if we were having a brotherly 4th of July BBQ as friends. Remember, we should primarliy show love among the brothers as our witness to the world when we talk about these things.

Matthew 24 is in PRIVATE and to only FOUR disciples (Mark 13) at night. The definition of reading into the text is anyone who thinks that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is to anybody other than these four men. These for men are addressed repeatedly as "you". These four men represent the core of the Christian faith, those most receptive to Jesus' teaching.

The plain reading of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 MUST point to "you" as a Christian or we shall be debating the meaning of the word "is".

Jesus connects the Church and Israel in Matthew 24:15. There's not point in doing that if "yeah we're already gone". The "yeah we're already gone" idea does not align. The premise is faulty. As has been demonstrated and verified by pretribbers, is that no Scripture explicitly points to a pre-trib idea. It is implied by a body of Scriptures. However, this same body of Scriptures can at the same time be used to support a "prewrath" idea of End Times and at the same time solve the nagging issues that post-tribbers continually bring up as inconsistent in pretrib ideaology.

I don't know if you ever had the opportunity to listen to the Bible Answer Man back in the early 1990s. From time to time, Elliott Miller (post-tribber) and Ron Rhodes (pre-tribber) would go head to head on the air. What was evident to all, is that each one could demonstrate problems and contradictions with each other's view that could not be reconciled. The point is that both are right and wrong.

There is a way that solves the "Rapture" question, in how it can occur in an hour and day that no one knows and also allows the church to be presecuted by the AC after the midpoint of the 70th Seven. Both pre and post tribbers get their way. The "Rapture" can be part of the Second Coming, not divorced from it by 7 or more years.

I doubt that there is any Pretribber that has ever come up with their view on their own. They have all --- ALL --- been educated in the view in seminaries, books, tapes from others who adopted it from others and so forth. I doubt most people, in fact, I've never met one, have come up with their view in isolation.

This is why I wrote my book to show how one actually can do this; to put aside the teachers and their tapes; to identify our biases; to learn how to rigorously apply a method of interpretation; to repent of trying to be right; to search for the core and primarly scriptures on the topic and use them alone to develop a doctrine.

 

[Vic C.]

Seriously do you guys even "know" Christ or just know of him?

That is uncalled for. No one, and I mean NO ONE is 100% certain. But the more I read and understand End Times, the more I tend to agree that... there is no secret pre tribulation Rapture.

 

[slanglep]

there is no secret pre tribulation Rapture.

Anyone that actually "knows" Christ and not just of him would understand his nature. He specifically states we are not appointed to wrath so if we went through the Tribulation that would make him a liar according to his own words.

The tribulation deals with Israel not the Church and many people confuse the two.


God specifically states we are not appointed to his wrath numerous times.

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, "which delivered us from the wrath to come."

1 Thess 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath."

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, "I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world", to try those who dwell upon the earth.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Isa 57:1 the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.



Jesus states we will not walk in darkness

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness

Prophets describe the Tribulation as a Day of Darkness

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Joel 2:2 A day of darkness

Zeph 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness.


Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Pss 97:10 he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

 

[slanglep]

[quote:f4ab2]How you get that the angel was talking to the church there when he was CLEARLY talking to John is beyond me

What are you talking about. John is talking to Jesus not an angel. I said John is symbolic of the Church.

Revelations 1: 13
One like the "Son of Man"

Revelations 1:17
I am the first and the last.

[/quote:f4ab2]

 

[slanglep]

That is uncalled for. No one, and I mean NO ONE is 100% certain

Yes I am certain. Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jesus is not a man that he should lie. If he says in his word that we are not appointed to wrath then he means it.

And your desolation scripture you guys keep referring to always states right after it "Those who are in Judea" - Israel

 

[LastDayRemnant]

Now please show one scripture where it says we are raptured out BEFORE the tribulation. None of the scriptures you posted says that or are even talking about that. I repeat i have never said we will go thru the wrath of God. You haven't read what i said at all. Go to revelation 6 and you will notice the raptured happens on the sixth seal. Although i think i am waisting my time here i will show you once again.
I am going to interject Matthew 24 in here with Rev,6 because they both describe the same event that Jesus said in Matthew of his return.

Rev,6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Matthew 24
29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days[/u] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So when is the rapture?
Matthew says AFTER the tribulation and Rev, shows it AFTER the sixth seal.

Rev, 6
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev, 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


The wrath of God starts AFTER the rapture

17 For the great day of his wrath IS come; and who shall be able to stand?

It says his wrath IS (present tense) come.

Notice that after all this and the 144,000 are sealed the church is in heaven.

Rev,7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Now notice that the seventh seal actually starts the wrath of God.
The trumpets are the wrath of God and the church is gone then.

So whether you like it or not the fact remains that the church is not shown in heaven until the sixth seal is opened.

Like i said i think i wasted my time here because i don't think you are gonna accept it no matter how much scripture i show you.

 

[Vic C.]

slanglep, thanks for the Scripture. I see where the confusion is. The Tribulation and the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) are different events in time. Of course we will be spared God's Wrath; we have His Word on that. But nowhere does it ever say we will be spared from the trials, tribulations and persecutions of the antichrist... or Satan.

Think about it, God's creation has been hassled by the Evil One since he uttered the very first lie... "Ye shall not surely die". Christians have been persecuted since the first century A.D. TO THE DEATH, I might add. So much for the adversary's vile words in the Garden. Some may go as far as saying the tribulation has been going on for Centuries. They may be right, though it hasn't quite reached the proportion of 'Great' just yet.

The Blessed Hope is not that we will be spared the persecution of the saints; the Blessed Hope is God's Word that we are spared His Wrath.

God bless,
Vic

(note- lets try and discuss and debate without our emotions overruling. thanks)

 

[Cameron]

Did you ever get a chance to hear Ron Rhodes and Elliott Miller go head to head with each other in the early 90s on the Bible Answer Man? If you can get the tapes their great. The best thing about it is that they example a loving attitude toward each other. After all the is more important than anything else in discussing issues like one's end times perspective. If people can't discuss it without glorifying God and loving their brother as a witness to the world then there's something wrong.

There are a lot of great books that look at and compare the varius perspectives and I encourage you to do that as well. It's best not to accept what you've been told or read in a neat novel. Better to get it from the Scriptures.

The fun thing about "show me in the Scriptures", especially between pretribbers and posttribbers is that they exclude each other's perspective or view by how they eisegete a particular text. Everyone does to some extent, so I always remember I've got the four fingers pointing at me too. But back to the topic, I'll use Matthew 24 to illustrate this point.

A Pre-tribber will read Matthew 24 and see something completely different there from a post-tribber. It is not because the text says something different, but because each approaches the text with their own bias. it's true with preterists too, perhaps even more so. Allow some broad brushing:

A Pretribber on Matt 24 (though there is some variation), pretribbers will not see the persecutions and trials as applicable to the Church. They'll see it as Israel or MAtt 24:29-31 as reference to Armageddon in order to remove the church prior to the AC and AOD.

A Posttribber, prewrather will read Matt 24 and see the "you" as being quite specifically addressed to the disciples and note that Jesus taught these four privately that they would be persecuted and the source of the persecution would be the AOD described in Daniel 9:27 and other places in Daniel according to per Matthew 24:15.

A Preterist would start from the idea that all or part of this was fulfilled at 70 AD and it is only given in that context so most if not all is no longer applicable.

Now the text is the same. But the predispositions are different. One will immediately eliminate the persecution of the church, one would see it (particularly based on Matt 28:20 to teach it all in continuation / perpetuation, and the other would not even consider a future fulfillment.

So when you say, show me a Scripture, one could, but one's view already biases the interpretation, usually. For instance a post-tribber or pre-wrather would say show me a scripture that says Jesus' return is imminent.

A Pre-tribber might offer James 5 and focus on the phrase "he stands at the door".
A Post tribber would read that and focus on the aspect of the passage that says to be patient and wait. He probably would cite that the "Judge" reference goes back to chapter 4 and the passage is about Christian living in light of how people treat each other and has nothing to do with a doctrinal position on the timing of Christ's return.
A Preterist and prewrather, would probably agree with the postribber.
An amillinnialist would say their all nuts...or at least think it.

Again, in 2 Thessalonians 2

A post tribber would point out that the plain order portrayed is 1) apostasy, 2) coming of AC, 3) Coming of Christ, gathering together and Day of the Lord.
A pretribber, would not group the three together and divorce day of Lord and make that be the thing that comes after so that the Rapture can happen before. It's all bias and read-in to the text.
A preterists would just say that was all fulfilled somehow in the 60's during Nero.

Revelation.

A pretribber has to find the Rapture before everything else. So with that bias, John must be the representation of the Rapture of the Church. That's classic bias that we all have.
A postribber, prewrather, and preterist would say that the text is just what it says, John went to see this and came back to tell. Arguably a less biased interpretation and that the church is described in terms of individual overcomers in Rev. 12:11 and 12:17.

The letter's to the churches:
A pre tribber can see these in many lights.: ages, types at the time of the return, but all up to 4:1, since John's "rapture" must be the "Rapture" of the church.
A posttribber, prewrather would point out that many of these will undergo persecution and that persecution is in context of Christ's coming back, especially suddenly if they are not watching or being deceived. the might say the key term is keeping the word of my perseverance in Rev. 3:10 which concept appears again in Rev. 12:11-17.
A preterist might generally agree with the posttribber or prewrather, but say that it was only for these seven literal churches or that they only represent the status of the church up to 65AD.

People can bring up Scripture, but biases can easily get in the way.
This is why I ended up writing a book on taking a step back on this issue and first inquire as to how one develops / determines a doctrine in the first place. It's written for futurists/premill primarily(pretribbers, post-tribbers, prewrathers, midtribbers).

 

[slanglep]

Go to revelation 6 and you will notice the raptured happens on the sixth seal.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Since you want to quote Revelation 6 – There is the word WRATH again. Which God says we are not appointed to - Those who have already accepted him - Current Church/Christians.


The word "rapture" is not found in the Bible. Rapture is said to be taken from the Latin word rapio which means, to seize, to take by force. It is a term the Church has used to describe the event.

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

You want post-tribbers want to use Matt 24 then explain those scriptures.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days

I like how you just inserted the words AFTER the tribulation. That is not what it says.

The current condition of the world already applies to what he says. Wars, Famines, Earthquakes. “ Beginnings of Sorrows†not the Tribulation.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: He names Judea specifically for a reason.



Revelation
Revelation 4 The Church is Removed from The Earth

Revelation 7
The sealed of God – In the Tribulation – The Tribes of Israel – Who will go through the wrath for rejecting their Messiah.

Revelation 7
Who are these? These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation.

There will be people coming out of the tribulation after it has started. Including Jews and Gentiles. That still does not mean the Church is not already in heaven before the Tribulation. You assume that the people who are coming out of the Tribulation must be the current Church.
[/b][/quote]

 

[slanglep]

Jesus has given us power and authority over Satan, Demons and Evil Spirits on the Earth. This is stated numerous times in the scriptures. For Satan to build a Kingdom he must remove Christians since God has given us power and authority over him.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you.

Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat: - Desired..not able to have him.

Mark 1:27 For with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

2Cr 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

Mat 9:8 But when the multitudes saw [it], they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Mat 10:1 He gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out.

1Cr 4:20 For the kingdom of God [is] not in word, but in power.

1Cr 6:12 I will not be brought under the power of any.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power

Rom 8:31 If God be for us, who can be against us?


Satan is only Given Authority in the Tribulation over the people that remain on Earth and only because God gives it to him.

Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.(Israel)

Rev 13:2 and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;


Satan’s Kingdom / Rise of the Anti Christ Cannot Stand Divided –
If there are Christians on the Earth it is already divided.

Mar 3:23 And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Scripture states that during the Tribulation he will have dominion over everyone on the Earth. “Nobody will buy or sell without the Markâ€Â. Much easier for him to accomplish a Kingdom that is built from the start without any Christians in the way. Those that God says he has no authority over.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

Go to revelation 6 and you will notice the raptured happens on the sixth seal.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Since you want to quote Revelation 6 – There is the word WRATH again. Which God says we are not appointed to - Those who have already accepted him - Current Church/Christians.

And that is exactly what i said. His day of wrath is come...AFTER the church is shown in heaven. I can't believe you can't see that is what i said. Please reread what i said before.

The word "rapture" is not found in the Bible. Rapture is said to be taken from the Latin word rapio which means, to seize, to take by force. It is a term the Church has used to describe the event.

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

You want post-tribbers want to use Matt 24 then explain those scriptures.

Of course Jesus is talking about the rapture there. But it doesn't say anything about it happening before the tribulation. It just says not everyone will be taken. Those scriptures prove nothing about WHEN the rapture takes place.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days

I like how you just inserted the words AFTER the tribulation. That is not what it says. The current condition of the world already applies to what he says. Wars, Famines, Earthquakes. “ Beginnings of Sorrows” not the Tribulation.

What are you talking about? That is exactly what it says.
Read verse 21 first where Jesus is talking about the great tribulation.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Then read on where he says after the tribulation of those days.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

He just said he was gonna gather his elect after the tribulation of those days. And he used the words "after those days so we would know what tribulation time he is talking about.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: He names Judea specifically for a reason.

Yes he does name Judea for a reason. They are to flee when the antichrist steps into the temple as God, when he breaks his peace treaty with Israel. Once again this has nothing to do with the christians. Read what the antichrist will do to the christians.

Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

We are the saints of God, not Israel!

Revelation 4 The Church is Removed from The Earth

That is not scriptual at all. John was told to come up hither, not the church. You are distorting the word of God.

Revelation 7
The sealed of God – In the Tribulation – The Tribes of Israel – Who will go through the wrath for rejecting their Messiah.

We actually both agree that the tribes of Israel go thru the wrath of God...but even then they are not getting hit with it, they are just witnessing it.

Revelation 7
Who are these? These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation.

There will be people coming out of the tribulation after it has started. Including Jews and Gentiles. That still does not mean the Church is not already in heaven before the Tribulation. You assume that the people who are coming out of the Tribulation must be the current Church.

Go to Rev, 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So who are these martyrs shown that are told to wait a little while longer? They certainly came out of the tribulation by dying. Now after being told to wait a little while then we get to the rapture of the church which is seen in heaven AFTER the martyrs are already in heaven.

Rev, 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

There is not one scripture in the bible that teaches pre trib. But there are plenty that show we are going thru the trib. I was a pre tribber once like you are, but it is not true.
[/b][/quote]

 

[Vic C.]

LastDayRemnant,

like I pointed out in my previous post, Pretribulationists see both the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord as all being all one event. They don't seperate the first several seals from the rest of the events, even though Revelation clearly puts a seperation at Rev. 6:17.

The Tribulation and The Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) are two distinct and seperate events. We see this throughout the OT and NT.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

LastDayRemnant,

like I pointed out in my previous post, Pretribulationists see both the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord as all being all one event. They don't seperate the first several seals from the rest of the events, even though Revelation clearly puts a seperation at Rev. 6:17.

The Tribulation and The Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) are two distinct and seperate events. We see this throughout the OT and NT.

You are right Vic and maybe i'll put a post up showing the difference although most wont accept it anyway. They don't accept that the antichrist only has power for 42 months, not seven years.

LDR

 

[Cameron]

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation... Matt 24:9

Who is "you"?

 

[slanglep]

Not the tribulation!

What does he say in the verse right before it

All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

 

[slanglep]

Ok just so I got this theory straight.

Jesus, came to this earth in the form of a man, was beaten, whipped, caned, spit upon, mocked, crucified and died for your filthy sins simply because he loves you.

He has called you his son, numbered every hair on your head, called you the apple of his eye and stated he will never leave you nor forsake you.

Yet you think he will make you suffer with those who have rejected, denied and mocked him and feel God’s wrath that he is going to pour out on the Earth.

I can only see a spiritually dead Christian believing in that nonsense.

 

[Ajax 777]

Which is why I hope you are ready to be either exposed for your "hidden" judgmentality....or relieved of such an ungodly opinion of others without making yourself the very same thing.

It makes me hurt that you are even able to know without fear the way you are acting breaks THIS "dead" Christian's heart.

Why would you think the spirit is something which even CAN die?

It is the part of every human being which, whether your soul is thrown into Hell or not, goes back to God. Yes, that part which doesn't belong to you any more than you ever did, or will.

Otherwise, the body is the last line of defense for life without the external standards of this world being something which means it's not okay to believe deeper than a REAL death sentence could be applied.

It is never funny, okay, or even any less than HERESY to imply that spiritual death be discernible to human eyes, or hearts, or understanding, or opinions, or belief. It certainly isn't ANYTHING you should put faith in, is it?

 

[Vic C.]

Yet you think he will make you suffer with those who have rejected, denied and mocked him and feel God’s wrath that he is going to pour out on the Earth.

During the Tribulation, "those who have rejected, denied and mocked Him" will not be persecuted by antichrist. These individuals will most likely be the ones who take the Mark, serve and worship him.

I'm confused. Why do you believe we say Christians will suffer God's Wrath? The ones I mentioned above wil suffer God's Wrath.

Tribulation and God's Wrath (Day of the Lord) aren't the seme event. Remember I said that about three or four times already. If you believe otherwise, why not at least address my posts and say so?

Peace,
Vic