Christians go thru the tribulation

[Vic C.]

It makes me hurt that you are even able to know without fear the way you are acting breaks THIS "dead" Christian's heart.

I agree Ajax.

slanglep, I don't read where anyone here with an opposing view to yours has made similar comments and accusations. If I have, I apologize. If anyone else has, please point it out to me. This is not the attitude the Spirit would want us to have when discussing this or any other topic in this Forum.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

Jesus certainly never said we weren't going to suffer. Read what he said about his coming back in Matthew.

Matthew 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake

 

[Cameron]

Yet you think he will make you suffer with those who have rejected, denied and mocked him and feel God’s wrath that he is going to pour out on the Earth

No. Of course not.

Tribulation/Persecutions/Suffering does NOT equal God's Wrath. So let's not be mischaracterizing what each other believes. I'd much rather example Christ's love than be disingenuous.

Joh 15:20 If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.

A common misconception the pretrib believers have is that the entire 70th Seven is God's Wrath. They generally have trouble understanding the difference between God's Wrath and Tribulation. I think it was Hal Lindsey who called the whole 70th Seven "the Tribulation" because it sounded neat. There's no Scripture to support it. The correct term is "70th Seven" or 70th set of Seven or even 70th week since a week is a set of seven.

Clearly the seals do not purport to be God's wrath or judgment. In the 5th Seal the martyrs (christians who decided to die for their faith) pleaded for God to begin His wrath. But He tells them to wait. In the 6th Seal people do see God and the Lamb otherwise they would not recognize that the Lamb has wrath that is about to begin.

As a result of the 6th Seal, people of all tribes and nations and tongues appear in heaven out of the "Great Tribulation"and God has yet to begin to judge.

The seal seal is open ad then we have silence in chapter 8 and then a scene that shows God receiving the prayers of the saints from under the altar. In the immediate context we know that the time is up and He will now begin His judgment.

That is the plain meaning of the text. The ONLY way one sees Tribulation is to "read-in" to the text.

Same is true of John's rapture= the church. One must "read-in" something else that is not there because THEY HAVE TO. No other reason. Revelation 4 is best understood in the plain sense. John saw these visions and they ended and he wrote them down for us to have on earth.

 

[Cameron]

That is the plain meaning of the text. The ONLY way one sees Tribulation is to "read-in" to the text.

Now you got me saying it wrong too.

The ONLY way one see "God Wrath/Judgment" is to "read-in" to the text. Tribulation we have all the time.

 

[Vic C.]

...
As a result of the 6th Seal, people of all tribes and nations and tongues appear in heaven out of the "Great Tribulation"and God has yet to begin to judge....

Good point. Here we read "His wrath is come;" which indicates it has just started or is about to commence.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here it reads "came out of the Great Tribulation", which is past tense.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These very two verses are where God's word declares this as being two seperate events; Great Tribulation and His wrath.

 

[Tzalam]

[3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/size]

It says Jesus will not return until after that man of sin be revealed first. In other words, we will see him.

Exactly true. How will we SEE the antichrist if we're taken off the earth?
Before he is revealed?
The bible also says everyone will marvel after him, except for the born again Christians. Not in those exact words, but, there are many Scriptures pointing to the "rapture" NOT happening before various parts of the tribulation happen. One significant factor many Christians ignore is the fact of how close the mark of the beast is.
Think about this. IF you take the mark of the beast, you will be sealed forever to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. That's what Jesus says in the Bible.
Think about this: how strong are you, to do without food, medicine, water, heat, air conditioning, what are you willing to go through, in order to get into Heaven? What did the disciples endure? What did Paul endure?
What have thousands of martyrs endured, for their faith? Being skinned alive, burned alive, sawed asunder, eaten alive by animals.
The fact that Christians are NOT going to be taken off the earth before the terrible times occur, shouldn't be a surprise. Did you know the PRE-TRIB teachings are relatively NEW, and are a FALSE TEACHING?
Yes, they're new, and they're lies.
Another thing to think about :
Why do you think JESUS tells us to crucify our flesh? Why did Paul talk about beating his flesh into submission? The flesh profits nothing.
Our bodies can and WILL cause us to sin, if we don't control them.
What is one of the FRUITS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Long-suffering. Another? Patience.
I said all of that, because the Christians will not be taken off the earth before the Tribulation period. If you read the Bible, the book of Revelation carefully, you'll see many references to Christians enduring during the antichrist's reign.
Also, read in Ezekiel, and Daniel. Many Scriptures. Compare Scripture with Scripture to get the whole truth. The facts are in the Bible.

One reason I can think of for the preachers to latch on to this pre-trib rapture preaching is that the devil may be using THEM to cause part of the GREAT FALLING AWAY.
Think about it! If the tribulation begins, the antichrist is revealed, and the mark of the beast is enforced, what's going to happen to the MINDS of ALLLL the Christians who were totally expecting to be conveniently lifted out of the way?
They're going to blow a fuse, and their foundations will crumble. They will have no truth to stand on, and won't know who to turn to, or which preacher or which bible to believe.
They will be part of the great apostasy.
That's my opinion. If you truly are pinning all your hopes on not having to endure sufferings, like many of the brothers and sisters in Christ have had to (Read Fox's Book of Martyr's) and then, the mark of the beast happens, you're going to find out your house is built on sand, and great will be your fall.

 

[Tzalam]

Yet you think he will make you suffer with those who have rejected, denied and mocked him and feel God’s wrath that he is going to pour out on the Earth.

During the Tribulation, "those who have rejected, denied and mocked Him" will not be persecuted by antichrist. These individuals will most likely be the ones who take the Mark, serve and worship him.

I'm confused. Why do you believe we say Christians will suffer God's Wrath? The ones I mentioned above wil suffer God's Wrath.

Tribulation and God's Wrath (Day of the Lord) aren't the seme event. Remember I said that about three or four times already. If you believe otherwise, why not at least address my posts and say so?

Peace,
Vic

Vic, I'm so glad to read your post! Praise God! I've been wondering if ANY other Christians were aware of what you just said.
You've brightened my day.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Cameron,

Tribulation/Persecutions/Suffering does NOT equal God's Wrath. So let's not be mischaracterizing what each other believes. I'd much rather example Christ's love than be disingenuous. ,

Generally speaking yes, but the GREAT tribulaion is God's wrath.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

Yes, this is referring to the "you" that Jesus is talking to on the Mount of Olives. Early Christians were persecuted for many years in and after biblical times. That "you" was handed over and put thru tribulation or persecution. I think the thing to look at is that it was the Roman army that God used as a means to hand out tHis wrath on that brood of vipers He talked about in Matthew 23 and that same army persecuted Christians then and for many years after the rebellion of Jurusalem in 66 - 70 AD.

The "you' that is talked about in the Olivet were killed or martyr'd then. That was A time of tribulation naturally, but not the GREAT tribulation, that was the time of God's wrath. That was when THEY died and saw the coming of the son of man on the clouds. It wasn't the followers of Christ that saw that first coming, it was those here.....the THEY of the Olivet.

Matthew 23
36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

John

 

[Jake99]

My question is do you believe that a man like Jesus will step forward and do the things the bible says he will? Standing against the elected leaders of this world is my favorite pastime. Not that anyone has to get hurt but rather everyone has to get helped to solve the problems of this world. Systematic change is what you are waiting for and only one man carries the simple system with him. He is in a bubble with a shield of armor and a sworded tongue. He is a warrior and a conquerer and you cannot be that living in the clouds. He is a man of incredible skill and talent and honesty, integrity and fair play is his game. Some call him a mad man others a wise man, some even call him the son of god. What is he? Not even he knows for sure, nor does he know the hour or the day that you will hear his voice and respond. Open your eyes and think outside the box and you will hear from the truth and the way. The beginning and the end.

 

[Cameron]

Generally speaking yes, but the GREAT tribulaion is God's wrath.

Is it really?

Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation,...

Mat 24:23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it.

Is God doing the deceiving? No, so it is not His wrath.

Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform 'great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Is God doing the deceiving? No. so it is not God's wrath.

This is the problem with a pretrib view; it confuses God's Wrath with the wrath of the world, the Devil and the beast. God's not killing the maryrs, the beast and his system is.

The Great Tribulaiton isn't a Tribulation becuase God makes it so, it is a tribulation on those who go through it pleading for God to intervene and bring His justice. Christians suffer now, they will suffer even more then. God will rescue the Christians and then begin His wrath by cutting short the days alloted to the AC. The AC has 42 months, but his 42 months will be cut short. How much shorter, we do not know.

 

[dcookcan]

The word "rapture" is not found in the Bible. Rapture is said to be taken from the Latin word rapio which means, to seize, to take by force. It is a term the Church has used to describe the event.

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

You want post-tribbers want to use Matt 24 then explain those scriptures.

Any pre-tribber should know that this is not describing the rapture. Look at the parallel passage in Luke 17:
34"I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35"There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
36["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]
37And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

They were Taken to a place where the valtures gather? That doesn't sound so good. If you would like to do a word study on "taken", you will find that it is usually a BAD thing.

 

[dcookcan]

There have been a lot of references to the Antichrist MAKING a peace treaty with Israel. That is not what the scripture says. It clearly states that the Antichrist will CONFIRM the covenant with the many. To confirm is not the same as to make. Perhaps he was just being a witness to the covenant.

 

[Cameron]

Any pre-tribber should know that this (matt 24) is not describing the rapture.

Pre-tribbers are told that it is about Armageddon and the Olivet Discourse for Israel.

1) If the Olivet Discourse is for Israel then why did Jesus only speak to four of His disciples in private and at night (Mark 13). These types of details are not irrelevant in light of Mark 4:34.

2) A simple and mindless comparison of events and their order with of Matthew 24 with Rev. 6 and Rev. 7 reveal an interesting parallel of events, especially those around the sun, moon and stars:

Martyrdom before SMS
: The SMS event
:o Jesus appears in Matt 24 and the tribes of the earth see the wrath of the Lamb
:angel: Afterward the angels go out to the four corners of the earth
:D Then in Matt 24 they gather and in Rev. 7we see a group of people of all tribes and nations who suddenly appear in Heaven.