Re: POINTS
bjdea1 said:
Daniel 7:25
Talking about the Anti-Christ ruler
He will speak against the Most High and oppress His saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
The Anti-Christ has 42 months (3.5 years) to oppress us (the saints of the Most High - Jews and Christians collectively - whoevers in the book of life). So this 3.5 years must be the second (last) 3.5 years. WHY? Because the Jews would not enter into the 7 year agreement (treaty) if they were to be immedaitely oppressed - they won't be immedaitely oppressed. The oppression of the saints coincides with the gentiles trampling on the Holy City for 42 months - this happens when the Anti-Christ invades and sets himself up as God of the temple. This happens half way through the 7 years. SO this 7 year treaty will be BROKEN, in other words for the first 3.5 years it WON'T be broken. So at the start things will appear ok - then all hell will break lose when he tries to take control of everytihng. So I believe we are all here right to the very end - right till Christ returns and becomes King. There is NO talk anywhere in the bible of Gods people being taken into heaven - into a halfway house to wait in there for a while - as God deals wrath on the rest of the world and then we all go off together with Jesus to approach the world - NO. Where does it say this anywhere in the scriptures? Also Paul talks about "us who are still alive will certainly not proceed those who have fallen asleep" -> this is when Christ returns - in other words those who are still on the planet and alive. Also consider this scripture - why do the angels say this?:
Daniel 12:6-12
[quote:859b6]
One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. [a] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?" He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Why did the angel say
Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days??? I don't believe there is a rapture - where did this "rapture" word come from anyway? As far as I'm concerned what people call the rapture is just the taking of Gods chosen unto himself when He returns - in the air to meet Him as He approaches. I really don't know where this "rapture" word came from. I think this is an error left by past believers (scholars who laid this "rapture" theology foundation) thats grown out of proportion simply because they gave it its own name and special recognition. It should just be called the "gathering". Its nothing more than that as far as I'm concerned. Its probably one of the biggest stumbling blocks around. I say put the whole rapture idea out of your mind. Yes Jesus will come like the thief in the night - but only to those who haven't bothered read the bible and are in the dark. We are not in the dark.[/quote:859b6]
Evidently you didn't really read my last post. Please reread it again.
The difference with me is that i think tribulation starts as soon as the antichrist arrives.
It says he makes a treaty with Israel, but
nowhere does it say he makes any kind of treaty with the saints (Christians). It says he overcomes the saints.
[/u]
Dan, 7
21
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (3 & 1/2 years)
Rev, 13
7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
So since he only has power for 42 months then he must work fast. If he waited until after he steps into the temple claiming he is God then his time is almost up and he still has to kill 1/4th of the worlds population in maybe just a few weeks or even less. I don't think the time frame allows for that to happen. I think the seals take time to pan out. Remember it says that herein is the patience of the saints.
Now show me even
one scripture where he makes any kind of peace with the saints. Nowhere does it say that.
It says he makes a treaty with Israel. Read Rev and you can see where between the sixth and seventh seal the church is in Heaven. Read the first five seals and you can easily see it is the antichrist taking out his wrath on the saints.
Seal 1 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer
Seal 2 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Seal 3 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Seal 4 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Seal 5 And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, t
hat they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
These are the martyrs who have already died shown now. They are told to wait a little bit longer until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Seal 6 is the rapture.
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a
great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Compare the last few scriptures with what Jesus said will happen at his coming.in Matthew 24
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Next you will see the church is in heaven
after the sixth seal and
BEFORE the seventh seal.
Seal 6 also has the sealing of the 144,000 and shows the church in heaven. And the trumpets haven't sounded yet.
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Seal 7 You will notice that the trumpets are prepared to blow to start the wrath of God.
And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
The trumpets are the wrath of God whereas you can see the seals are the tribulation of the antichrist on Christians.
If the antichrist waited until the last 42 days do his evil then his time would have already run out according to the bible because he only has 42 months of power and would have used it up already.
So please show me just one verse where he makes peace with the saints?
It is not scriptural to say that.
So please explain to me how the church can be in heaven before the trumpets start blowing if we are here to the end as you say.
I already talked about the 1335 days in a past post i made here.
