Christians go thru the tribulation

[Cameron]

bjdeal,
Sorry, now it looks like you're talking like a post-tribber. Post-tribbers and Prewarthers make very similar arguments. Post-tribbers generally ignore the ambiguous time and their meaning. Sure every one knows the 42 months and 1260 days, etc, but they forget about the:

"times cut short"
"wait until the number of maryrs is fulfilled"
"the devils warth is for a short time"
"no one knows the day or hour"

There are many others. These ambiguous times refer to a previously defined time period of 3 1/2 years as described above. So it is possible to see the CHurch be rescued before the end of the 70th Seven and STILL have the Christs coming be the very SAME coming as that at the END of the 70th Seven.

Prewrathers and Post-tribbers both believe that Christ has only ONE second Coming. (No Secret raptures). Pre-wrathers just see it beginning a little earlier at an unknown time probably in the last 9 to 18 months. Armageddon is just another scene of the Second Coming. The Second Coming is like the First Coming. Jesus didn't do everything on ONE day.

 

[Cameron]

Last Day Remnant

I wanted to get back to you on the wrath part.

The Two Witness could be present during both times for both purposes in their ministry. By this I mean, in the last 3 1/2 year period with Christians are persecuted by AC, they will be around testifying. When the Second Coming begins and the object of the devil wrath disappears and the 144,000 Israelites are preserved, then the devil / AC shifts gears to prevent the establishment of Christ's literal Kingdom on earth, while God begins His wrath as a 1/3 "announcment" or "warning" with trumpets.

The Two Witness die 3 1/2 days before the end of the 7 year period in my view and are raised on the very day, end of the 70th Seven as Jesus accept the kingdoms and begins to reign (Rev. 11:15). And then the nations are enraged (Rev. 11:18), because they have been kicked out of Jerusalem. The AOD disappears as the Temple in Heaven opens to expose the Ark (Rev. 11:19) and creates a "convergance" on Mt. Zion between heaven and earth as we see in (Rev. 14:1-4). The 144,000 First Fruits of Israel to believe are presented to God, standing on Mt. Zion and ALSO before the throne in Heaven.

This is how the AOD is destroyed instantly and the temple purified instantly. and why those people in Rev. 11 who celebrated the Two Witnesses death suddenly had a change of heart. And this is also why Armageddon is staged near Jerusalem and not in Salt Lake. The world's beast empires have lost Jerusalem and the leadership knows they have only even less time before they are vanquished in the 100% wrath of God's bowls. This is why there is 1290 days.

The extra 30 days in Dan. 12 is related the AOD but not the very AOD, but the one who set up the AOD; the AC. Dan. 9:27 says theirs a consummation period with judgments "poured" out. these are the bowls being poured out on the desolator who set up the desolation. About half the english translations get that right.

So a post tribber will try to cram it all into one day and gloss over any differences. While a pre-rather will stretch it out a bit into many acts and deeds with in the same Second Coming. Pre-tribbers have a secret, extra coming of Christ.

 

[bjdea1]

Response

After reading some of the responses of people to my post I find myself feeling like: " I don't want to enter into this discussion much anymore". Its like "You prove to me where it says this", "you show me this.." "or you are a pretribber or you are that kind of person" ..etc etc. I don't like this - because (1) you don't know me (2) we are not here to parade our knowledge (3) we are not here to just win arguments and simply fight for the sake of fighting. We're meant to be getting somewhere for the benefit of all, helping each other and learning from each other, not fighting to be top dog. I don't like some of the attitudes I feel behind these kind of words, as though its encouraging competitiveness to develop. Be a little more humble please, none of us know exactly whats going to happen. I fear sometimes that some of us may be missing loving those around us right now (your family) - because you're too busy being online and arguing your points in here all the time.

Thats something I've noticed with my own life lately - I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out exactly whats going to happen. Ok I am getting closer to what I believe is correct - BUT - what am I doing to love and care for those around me right now? All this time discussing in forums and being online, Ok so sure I may eventually find out exactly what is going to happen - but then all that time used up could mean my own brothers needs right now are left unmet by me and he turns to another for support - this could lead to him not getting saved. Do you get my point? Do you have any love in your heart for any particular person to be saved at the moment? To see them rescued from the horror that is coming on the world and see them find salvation? Do you have a heart for someone? I would say make sure you don't neglect your duty to them as a witness of Christs love - because the reality is we all know enough to survive already. I mean we'd all like to know exactly what happens - but do we really need to know every little detail? Personally yes I would like to know - but I would also like my family to be saved. I know I have to build the trust to have them trust in me when it most counts, I know I can't afford to neglect being there for them at the moment. So just remember that people, there's more to it than just satisfying our own desire to understanding everything.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

bjdea1, please don't throw in the towel here. It is good to be challenged, that is how you learn. I know what you are talking about in life lately. I will give you my background for what it's worth. I have been in a very deep trial for over 30 years now. People don't think that it's possible but it's true. The Lord has shown me many things along the way. My trial is not a "valley" trial, rather mine is a "desert" trial the Lord said and the only way thru it is to drink of the living water. Believe me i would rather have the valley because there is shade and water and trees in the valley. The desert is much more extreme. In one service the preacher told me as he was praying for me that Jesus walked up the isle behind me and put a crown of life on my head. So, i checked to see what a crown of life exactly was in the bible. The Lord said he is about to pull me out of by his ressurection power and that there are many people coming out of their trials with me. So i am waiting on the Lord. I also know that my work will be to get people ready and to be prepared to meet the antichrist. I am 50 years old so this isn't gonna be far off. I believe we will see the antichrist before or around 2009. I also believe that the united states is gonna be either destroyed or at least nutrealized by a nuclear war. Look for Israel to have a peace treaty with her neighborers real soon. That will set up Ezkiel 38-39 and ultimitely lead to the U.S. destruction also. This is going to get real ugly real fast when it starts. Just be prepared is the best thing you can do. The Lord is raising up a remnant for the last days...hence my name.

LDR

 

[LastDayRemnant]

Last Day Remnant

I wanted to get back to you on the wrath part.

The Two Witness could be present during both times for both purposes in their ministry. By this I mean, in the last 3 1/2 year period with Christians are persecuted by AC, they will be around testifying. When the Second Coming begins and the object of the devil wrath disappears and the 144,000 Israelites are preserved, then the devil / AC shifts gears to prevent the establishment of Christ's literal Kingdom on earth, while God begins His wrath as a 1/3 "announcment" or "warning" with trumpets.

I will disagree with you here Cameron because the two witnesses are never talked about anytime during the seals. And you acknowledge that the sixth seal is the rapture. So after the rapture and after the sixth trumpet, but before the seventh trumpet the witnesses are talked about.
It looks to me from what their job is that they are a part of Gods wrath when you see what they do.

The Two Witness die 3 1/2 days before the end of the 7 year period in my view and are raised on the very day, end of the 70th Seven as Jesus accept the kingdoms and begins to reign (Rev. 11:15). And then the nations are enraged (Rev. 11:18), because they have been kicked out of Jerusalem. The AOD disappears as the Temple in Heaven opens to expose the Ark (Rev. 11:19) and creates a "convergance" on Mt. Zion between heaven and earth as we see in (Rev. 14:1-4). The 144,000 First Fruits of Israel to believe are presented to God, standing on Mt. Zion and ALSO before the throne in Heaven.

This is how the AOD is destroyed instantly and the temple purified instantly. and why those people in Rev. 11 who celebrated the Two Witnesses death suddenly had a change of heart. And this is also why Armageddon is staged near Jerusalem and not in Salt Lake. The world's beast empires have lost Jerusalem and the leadership knows they have only even less time before they are vanquished in the 100% wrath of God's bowls. This is why there is 1290 days.

The extra 30 days in Dan. 12 is related the AOD but not the very AOD, but the one who set up the AOD; the AC. Dan. 9:27 says theirs a consummation period with judgments "poured" out. these are the bowls being poured out on the desolator who set up the desolation. About half the english translations get that right.

So a post tribber will try to cram it all into one day and gloss over any differences. While a pre-rather will stretch it out a bit into many acts and deeds with in the same Second Coming. Pre-tribbers have a secret, extra coming of Christ.

I'm not sure i completely understand where you stand on the Lords return here. I'll tell you what i believe.

We both agree that Matthew 24 and the sixth seal is the rapture where the elect is gathered out of this world. I do not believe that the coming of Christ on his white horse is anytime soon after that. I believe that it happens appoxmately 3 &1/2 years after the rapture. But, i'm open and will listen to other views, but they must be convincing. I used to be a pre-tribber and was convinced otherwise. So just concentrate on that part of it and show me what you have.

Thanks
LDR

 

[Cameron]

bjdeal,
Good points. Yes, we should never forsake our duty as bondservants of Christ making the most of every opportunity. As Christians, it should be our goal to love each other as a witness to the world - especially in discussion such issues of varied opinion within the sphere of orthodoxy.

 

[Cameron]

LastDayRemnant,
Thanks for the clarification. I now understand where you're coming from.
I see the midpoint of the 70th Seven between the 3rd and 4th Seal.
I take Jesus and Paul's description of birth pangs at face value and see the seals start out slowly and progressively ocurr in shorter intervals so that the last two, the 6th and 7th are back to back.

Why the mid between 3rd and 4th? The 4th seal describes Death and Hades killing people with hunger among other things. Death represents physical and Hades spiritual. People are making choices on earth at that time related to choosing physical death or spiritual death. That would coincide with the refusal of the beast's system/mark.

As a result of this you get the great tribulaiton resulting in the 5th seal that ends when their number is complete with the 6th.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

LastDayRemnant,
Thanks for the clarification. I now understand where you're coming from.
I see the midpoint of the 70th Seven between the 3rd and 4th Seal.
I take Jesus and Paul's description of birth pangs at face value and see the seals start out slowly and progressively ocurr in shorter intervals so that the last two, the 6th and 7th are back to back.

Why the mid between 3rd and 4th? The 4th seal describes Death and Hades killing people with hunger among other things. Death represents physical and Hades spiritual. People are making choices on earth at that time related to choosing physical death or spiritual death. That would coincide with the refusal of the beast's system/mark.

As a result of this you get the great tribulaiton resulting in the 5th seal that ends when their number is complete with the 6th.

Cameron, the point that gets me in the bible is the fact that the antichrist has power for 42 months. The first five seals to me looking at them are the antichrists killing Christians just as the bible says. After the sixth seal which we both consider the rapture you notice that the antichrist is not in power and dealing out death anymore. To me when Christ returns marks the end of the antichrists reign. So that means to me his 42 months is up at that point. Now the temple and 1290 days i admit is tricky to figure out.
Mostly what concerns me is the fact that people know and are ready to face the antichrist. Everything else is just details.

I would like to get into Ezekiel 38-39 and what you think of that. I have a lot of info on that and also who you might think who the antichrist is . You already know who i say it is.

Thanks,
LDR

 

[LastDayRemnant]

Cameron, there is one really important point that i left out on my last post and i think this will show that the antichrist is still in power until Jesus returns. Go to the fifth seal.

Rev,6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So the fifth seal you see the martyrs in heaven wanting vengeance but God says in a little while.

And when the sixth seal happens is when you notice that God pulls his people out of this world and seal seven starts his vengeance with the trumpets. So it has to mean the antichrists reign is over which means his 42 months is up.

 

[Cameron]

A couple of things.

What marks the end of AC's reign is Rev. 11:15 = 7th Trumpet. The kingdoms of the world get transfered then. This parallels with the summation of the 7oth Seven's goal and six promises stated in Daniel 9:24.

But....he's still around. Note that the 5th bowl is poured on his throne. Rev. 16:10

So the fact that he's still around doesn't necessarily equate to authority to rule. Nor does the fact that he is ruling mean that he must be persecuting. Nor does the removal of the church equate to an end to the AC's rule.

We know that the AC has 42 months.
We know that the time is cut short for the elect.
It is cut short from 42 months.
So the AC can't touch the elect for part of that 42 months. He'll have to work on other priorities, such destroying the first fruits of Israel or something as crazy as imposing his image into mankind over God's image.

 

[Cameron]

Start where Jesus starts:

Matthew 24:15 connecting to the AOD references in Daniel 9:24-27 and Daniel 11:31-12.

Clearly Jesus wants us to make a connection.

In Daniel 9:24-27 we see that in the 70th Seven at the midpoint a desolation is set up by a Desolator.

In Daniel 11:35 to Daniel 12 discuss more of the impact of this AOD and that there is an additional 30 day period after the 70th Seven. Again, the time springs from the AOD in Daniel 12:11

In Daniel 9:27 we see that this Desolator is getting judgments "poured" out on him.

Starting with where Jesus' started we begin to see the following:

1) The times in Daniel relate to events that happen as a result of the AOD. Therefore, the time periods of 42mo, 1260 days, etc should be first considered as being related to the 2nd half of the 70th Seven. I believe they all are.

2) The "poured-out" judgments are likely equatable to the bowls of Revelation. I think they're the same.

3) When Jesus talks of "cutting a time short" in Matthew 24:22 or there is another ambiguous time mentioned like Revelation 6:11 when the martyrs are told to "wait a little longer until their number is complete" are segments of a previously stated period of time.

This means that the AC can have 42 month authority between the midpoint and the end regardless of how long the elect are there. AC's authority officially ends at the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15.

Daniel 9:24 lists 6 things that need to be fulfilled literally, as literal as the rebuilding of the city square and moat after the first set of sevens and as literal as Jesus died after the 69 sevens. Prophecy and vision need to be complete as Revelation 10:7 says will happen when the 7th trumpet sounds.

Daniel 9:24 says the most holy needs to be anointed from after being desolated. If the desolation lasts 1260 days then it needs to be instantly vanquished at the end of the 70th Seven. How? Revelation 11:19 shows that the true temple in heaven opens exposing the most Holy there.

We know that Revelation 9:5 gives a duration for one of the trumpets as 5 months. If the 7th trumpet represents the end of the 70th seven then the trumpets occur at the same time as the AC has his authority to rule as the Gentile trample Jerusalem. Some people don't consider the trumpets as God's wrath. They see an incompatibility with the rule of AC and his authority. I don't think we make enough shades of difference. For instance, some don't see the seals as God's judgment. But in a sense they are. They are judgments on the house of God in the 1 Peter 4:17 sense.

God answers the martyrs in the 1st trumpet in Revelation 8. The prayers of those saints are poured out before God in Revelation 8:4 and He then acts. Some see this as God's wrath 1/3 strength. Others as the final announcement of His coming wrath. The main idea is that God is going to work up to a complete vanquishing of mankind's fallen systems.

So back to Matthew 24, the martyrs ocur in the second half during the AC authority time when he takes over and tries to eclipse God's next major stage of history. Here's a small typed graph:

| 1SA 2SA 3SA | 4SA 5SA 6SA7SA1TA2TA3TA4TA5TA6TA7TA|7Bs


The first vertical line is the beginnig of the70th seven when a pact is reaffirmed with Israel for 7 years. My guess is that is an agreement to rebuild the temple and reinstate sacrifices.

At the midpoint, all Hell breaks loose as Israel's has confided in mankind's systems for the last time trusting man's guarantee over God's. Abe's physical and spiritual offspring get persecuted globally. Christians go out enmasse and do what they should have been doing - evangelizing the world but most are martyred. The ACs system is so efficient that all Christians would eventually die if Jesus has not cut the times short and sealed and protected the 144,000 Israelites who will be the core to receive the literal and full blessings of God's promises back in Genesis 12-17.

Jesus' parousia (Second Coming/Advent/Presence) begins at the 6th seal and continues on forever. I wouldn't be surprised if the 144,000 Israelites who have not bowed are held in a camp at in the Kidron Valley and made to look up at the image of the beast for worship or die like in Daniel 3 when suddenly the 6th seal happens, Jesus returns to Mat. of Olives, splits it apart and the 144,000 escape to wait out the rest of their 1260 days.

None of this mitigates against the "Rapture" or prevents Christians from being with Jesus. Adam and Eve were always with God but even then, God still walked with them in a localized fashion. Sometimes we get fish-in-the-bowl-it's; meaning we don't perceive what is beyond the fish tank. So the rapture can happen before the end of the 70th seven while still letting the have his authority to rule and still persuade people to follow him up until the 7th trumpet.

Pretribbers are happy because the can still say that no one knows the day or the hour. Post-tribbers can be happy because Jesus second coming is still only one second coming. The AC gets a complete 42 months. But Christians have that time cut short just as Jesus said.

 

[bjdea1]

Response

I think maybe some of these discussions go overboard sometimes and the balance in life gets lost. Seems like this conversation is just going on and on - are you guys getting anyway yet? Anyway as far as I'm concerned I need a "time out" at the moment. I'll be back later - other matters to focus on right now - my brother and his wife are having their first baby.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

Ok Cameron, i'll show you why i think the midpoint is the sixth seal and why the wrath of God starts then.

I have mentioned that the antichrist only has power for 42 months. The bible says he wears out the saints. Nowhere does it say he has a peace treaty with the saints ,only Israel. So he does not have power at all after 42 months, so i can't buy into most of the stuff happening the latter half of the seven years because of that.

We both believe the sixth seal is the rapture. So lets go to the scriptures during the rapture.

Rev,6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It says his wrath is (present tense) come. So according to the bible the wrath starts right after the rapture of the church. Now notice that the antichrist is not in power anymore. So the rapture is the breaking point between the antichrists rule and the wrath of God. And it makes since because the antichrist had power for 42 months and now his time is up at the rapture.

Yes the antichrist is still around during the wrath of God, but he is not in power anymore.

 

[slanglep]

We do not go through the tribulation. The wrath of God is stored up for his enemies.

The 7 Letters in Revelations are the History of the Church.

Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Now go to Matthew 13 - The 7 Kingdom Parables.

Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Read the PARABLES and you will get it. He takes us from among the Tares.

Revelation 4:1
A Trumphet sounds - "Come up here" (Speaking to John- Symbolic) - The Church is no longer mentioned after this verse. Meaning the current Christian Church.

You can stay behind if you want but I know my God.

 

[Cameron]

Slanglep,
Hey thanks for chiming in.
Did you know you have to read into the text something not there to think or say that the Church is vacated in Rev. 4:1? On the face-value, John is simple being shown things about the future, nothing else. But I understand how a pretrib view and others "need" to make it so.

In a "historist" view, one must also read-in to the letters things that are not plainly there. Yes, the letters are to churches encouraging them to make it through the persecutions to come. That's also the plain reading. Revelation is a book to the churches with information for the churches. It is the plain context, but the plain does not jive with the pretrib idea or even the historist idea.

Those who have the testimony of Jesus is another way for describing the church they are shown being persecuted by the beast in Revelation. That is a plain understanding. You don't need to read in that somehow they are Jewish evengelists or such. That stuff is in books by men, it's not in the Bible.

Have you ever read the Ante-Nicean fathers? The fellows who Paul , Peter and John passed Christianity on to. You can download it for free. http://www.e-sword.net. These guys pretty uniformly beleived that Christians would be persecuted by the Antichrist. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that too. What say you?

 

[Vic C.]

These guys pretty uniformly beleived that Christians would be persecuted by the Antichrist. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that too. What say you?

I believe that too. I also believe they have been persecuted for quite a while now, just not to the point of truely being called genocidal.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

I was a dyed in the wool pre-tribber myself Slanglep. But luckily i was shown the truth and now there is no way i could be pre-trib again because the bible clearly teaches we will go thru the tribulation, NOT the wrath of God. If you will reread my posts you will see where i show the difference is. What i have found with most pre-tribbers and the way i also used to think was there was no way God would let us die to the Antichrist like that. I even saw Hal Lindsey say the same thing on TV. What would make us so special? Almost all the apostles were martyred and from the last number i had read about it is believed that over 25 million Christians have been martyred over the years for their faith. So please what would make us any different? Then who is the 1/4th of the worlds population that the antichrist kills.

Rev,6
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Read what else the bible says the antichrist will do to the saints
Dan,7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Rev,13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Go to Rev,6 and see those who have been martyred already asking God when he will take vengeance on them and see what he says.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Now , before you go and say that these are those who get saved after the rapture then i'll ask you for one scripture to back that up. I have three to show that after the rapture and God is pouring out his wrath that NO one repents....No one. Read it.

Rev, 9:20-21

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet REPENTED NOT of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 NEITHER REPENTED THEY of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev, 16:11

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and REPENTED NOT of their deeds.

I can keep going but i'll stop here to keep from making this post to long.

 

[Vic C.]

Nice, civilized thread. I like it. :angel:

I would like to get into Ezekiel 38-39 and what you think of that. I have a lot of info on that and also who you might think who the antichrist is . You already know who i say it is

I have some ideas on this too. Well, they're not all my ideas but I do agree with them. I think starting a thread on these chapters is a great idea. Feel free. :-D

 

[LastDayRemnant]

Nice, civilized thread. I like it. :angel:

I would like to get into Ezekiel 38-39 and what you think of that. I have a lot of info on that and also who you might think who the antichrist is . You already know who i say it is

I have some ideas on this too. Well, they're not all my ideas but I do agree with them. I think starting a thread on these chapters is a great idea. Feel free. :-D

Vic, feel free to start it if you want and i'm sure a bunch of us will join in on it. I'm interested in seeing what you have to say.

LDR

 

[Vic C.]

Vic, feel free to start it if you want and i'm sure a bunch of us will join in on it. I'm interested in seeing what you have to say.
LDR

Ok, :-D

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16536