Christians & secular music

[evenifigoalone]

Why is music the only thing in life people seem to want to label secular or Christian...if a Christian plays in the NFL do we call it Christian football ? if a Christian is a doctor do we call it Christian medicine ? Music is Music it can be used for good or bad, there are 12 tones in the Western scale and to the best of my knowledge God has not divided them up into secular and Christian tones, there are no sacred/secular melodies or harmonies or rythms.....there are only people who use or abuse Music to suit their own ends and agendas....same as with any other part of God's creation.

I think the point is moreso to show that there are alternatives to secular music, which often are not something Christians should listen to because of the lyrics. Just like there are Christian movies.

Careers do not have a reputation for being immoral like entertainment often can be. Not in the same way.

Professional sports is notoriously trashy yet I have never heard Christian sports figure criticized for being involved with it,layers ? doctors ? the first soap opera was about the lives of Doctors and Nurses and we certainly know about lawyers...there are Christian actors who work in Hollywood and are not criticized for doing so.

The reasons music has been singled out,rock music in particular is because the church was against rock from the very beginning and the fact that it has since its beginning held great influence in the lives of young people...its not like Country music,Bluegrass or Classical music is populated by saints for it certainly isn't,those forms of music were approved by previous generations and that is all that realy mattered...Rock was/is not.

The issue of alternatives is or lack thereof is an issue of individuality,you cannot simply substitute one musicians work for another and say its all the same...there are no substitutes Christian or otherwise for bands like Yes,Genesis,Jethro Tull,Rush,The Beatles,Led Zeppelin,etc,etc

Regarding football...ever heard of Tim Tebow? He's highly praised by a lot of Christians for being a football player who is outspoken about his faith.
Also, in the church I grew up in (independent baptist), those things actually were, as I recall, very criticized. It might not be widely criticized, but it is criticized somewhere.

Careers in and of themselves are seem as serving their purpose, I think. People realize that their lifestyles have little if anything to do with the career itself. (Although it may influence the career in some way, as in the case of lawyers.)

Music actually says something, attempts to express something. So Christians will tend to want to know if message it conveys is a Christian one.
I haven't done a ton of reading up on music, but from what I learned of music in school (have studied the composers of classical music), new styles of music has always been initially criticized, including classical. The walts, music and dance, used to be controversial a long time ago. The composers themselves often led questionable lives as well.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I haven't done a ton of reading up on music, but from what I learned of music in school (have studied the composers of classical music), new styles of music has always been initially criticized, including classical.

I read somewhere that the fiddle or violin used to be called "the devil's instrument" by churches when it was first invented. Not sure if it's true or not.

 

[Mountain Man]

Why is music the only thing in life people seem to want to label secular or Christian...if a Christian plays in the NFL do we call it Christian football ? if a Christian is a doctor do we call it Christian medicine ? Music is Music it can be used for good or bad, there are 12 tones in the Western scale and to the best of my knowledge God has not divided them up into secular and Christian tones, there are no sacred/secular melodies or harmonies or rythms.....there are only people who use or abuse Music to suit their own ends and agendas....same as with any other part of God's creation.

I think the point is moreso to show that there are alternatives to secular music, which often are not something Christians should listen to because of the lyrics. Just like there are Christian movies.

Careers do not have a reputation for being immoral like entertainment often can be. Not in the same way.

Professional sports is notoriously trashy yet I have never heard Christian sports figure criticized for being involved with it,layers ? doctors ? the first soap opera was about the lives of Doctors and Nurses and we certainly know about lawyers...there are Christian actors who work in Hollywood and are not criticized for doing so.

The reasons music has been singled out,rock music in particular is because the church was against rock from the very beginning and the fact that it has since its beginning held great influence in the lives of young people...its not like Country music,Bluegrass or Classical music is populated by saints for it certainly isn't,those forms of music were approved by previous generations and that is all that realy mattered...Rock was/is not.

The issue of alternatives is or lack thereof is an issue of individuality,you cannot simply substitute one musicians work for another and say its all the same...there are no substitutes Christian or otherwise for bands like Yes,Genesis,Jethro Tull,Rush,The Beatles,Led Zeppelin,etc,etc

Regarding football...ever heard of Tim Tebow? He's highly praised by a lot of Christians for being a football player who is outspoken about his faith.
Also, in the church I grew up in (independent baptist), those things actually were, as I recall, very criticized. It might not be widely criticized, but it is criticized somewhere.

Careers in and of themselves are seem as serving their purpose, I think. People realize that their lifestyles have little if anything to do with the career itself. (Although it may influence the career in some way, as in the case of lawyers.)

Music actually says something, attempts to express something. So Christians will tend to want to know if message it conveys is a Christian one.
I haven't done a ton of reading up on music, but from what I learned of music in school (have studied the composers of classical music), new styles of music has always been initially criticized, including classical. The walts, music and dance, used to be controversial a long time ago. The composers themselves often led questionable lives as well.

Yes I have,my point was and is that people like Tim Tebow are praised for being a light in a dark place,rarely if ever is that said of Christians in Rock music....i'm sure somebody some where at some time said it but just google "is Rock music a sin" and the possibilities are in the thousands if not millions...God sees the message we communicate no matter what our vocation is..it is people who pick and choose which professions matter and which ones are actually saying something,who to follow and who to criticize,who to see as a light in a dark place and who to judge as being part of that darkness for being there.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Professional sports is notoriously trashy yet I have never heard Christian sports figure criticized for being involved with it,layers ? doctors ? the first soap opera was about the lives of Doctors and Nurses and we certainly know about lawyers...there are Christian actors who work in Hollywood and are not criticized for doing so.

The reasons music has been singled out,rock music in particular is because the church was against rock from the very beginning and the fact that it has since its beginning held great influence in the lives of young people...its not like Country music,Bluegrass or Classical music is populated by saints for it certainly isn't,those forms of music were approved by previous generations and that is all that realy mattered...Rock was/is not.

The issue of alternatives is or lack thereof is an issue of individuality,you cannot simply substitute one musicians work for another and say its all the same...there are no substitutes Christian or otherwise for bands like Yes,Genesis,Jethro Tull,Rush,The Beatles,Led Zeppelin,etc,etc

Regarding football...ever heard of Tim Tebow? He's highly praised by a lot of Christians for being a football player who is outspoken about his faith.
Also, in the church I grew up in (independent baptist), those things actually were, as I recall, very criticized. It might not be widely criticized, but it is criticized somewhere.

Careers in and of themselves are seem as serving their purpose, I think. People realize that their lifestyles have little if anything to do with the career itself. (Although it may influence the career in some way, as in the case of lawyers.)

Music actually says something, attempts to express something. So Christians will tend to want to know if message it conveys is a Christian one.
I haven't done a ton of reading up on music, but from what I learned of music in school (have studied the composers of classical music), new styles of music has always been initially criticized, including classical. The walts, music and dance, used to be controversial a long time ago. The composers themselves often led questionable lives as well.

Yes I have,my point was and is that people like Tim Tebow are praised for being a light in a dark place,rarely if ever is that said of Christians in Rock music....i'm sure somebody some where at some time said it but just google "is Rock music a sin" and the possibilities are in the thousands if not millions...God sees the message we communicate no matter what our vocation is..it is people who pick and choose which professions matter and which ones are actually saying something,who to follow and who to criticize,who to see as a light in a dark place and who to judge as being part of that darkness for being there.

Music is labelled as Christian in regards to the message of the lyrics. Instrumental music is not labelled as Christian, or I don't think it is. It wouldn't make any sense if it was. Music itself is neutral.

In literature we have "Christian fiction". ("Christian history" would not be a genre, but history relating specifically to Christians or Christianity.) It can be called Christian because it's meant to be about Christianity in some way. Perhaps an allegory.

We have "Christian speakers", although there's no real genre for speaking that I know of...but it is used, and it does give us some idea of the nature of what the speaker speaks on.

Whatever else it may be, labels like "Christian _____" are mainly giving us an idea of what we can expect from the product.

I think that careers are not given specific labels has more to do with the nature of the thing than anything else. There may be doctors who are Christians, but we don't label them in general as "Christian doctors" like we would a genre because Christianity has little if anything to do with being a doctor. If Christianity had anything significant to do with being a doctor, then we would have a "Christian doctor" label.


Just trying to explain why I don't get your point. It doesn't make any sense to me, because there are no genre labels to careers in the first place, Christian or not. What there are are different fields in a specific career, that give us an idea of what those fields are about. For example, off the top of my head, there is "veterinary practice", and under that one field would be "clinical practice". (Did a little reading on that, since I'm considering it myself. I probably got the names wrong, though.)

 

[Mountain Man]

Professional sports is notoriously trashy yet I have never heard Christian sports figure criticized for being involved with it,layers ? doctors ? the first soap opera was about the lives of Doctors and Nurses and we certainly know about lawyers...there are Christian actors who work in Hollywood and are not criticized for doing so.

The reasons music has been singled out,rock music in particular is because the church was against rock from the very beginning and the fact that it has since its beginning held great influence in the lives of young people...its not like Country music,Bluegrass or Classical music is populated by saints for it certainly isn't,those forms of music were approved by previous generations and that is all that realy mattered...Rock was/is not.

The issue of alternatives is or lack thereof is an issue of individuality,you cannot simply substitute one musicians work for another and say its all the same...there are no substitutes Christian or otherwise for bands like Yes,Genesis,Jethro Tull,Rush,The Beatles,Led Zeppelin,etc,etc

Regarding football...ever heard of Tim Tebow? He's highly praised by a lot of Christians for being a football player who is outspoken about his faith.
Also, in the church I grew up in (independent baptist), those things actually were, as I recall, very criticized. It might not be widely criticized, but it is criticized somewhere.

Careers in and of themselves are seem as serving their purpose, I think. People realize that their lifestyles have little if anything to do with the career itself. (Although it may influence the career in some way, as in the case of lawyers.)

Music actually says something, attempts to express something. So Christians will tend to want to know if message it conveys is a Christian one.
I haven't done a ton of reading up on music, but from what I learned of music in school (have studied the composers of classical music), new styles of music has always been initially criticized, including classical. The walts, music and dance, used to be controversial a long time ago. The composers themselves often led questionable lives as well.

Yes I have,my point was and is that people like Tim Tebow are praised for being a light in a dark place,rarely if ever is that said of Christians in Rock music....i'm sure somebody some where at some time said it but just google "is Rock music a sin" and the possibilities are in the thousands if not millions...God sees the message we communicate no matter what our vocation is..it is people who pick and choose which professions matter and which ones are actually saying something,who to follow and who to criticize,who to see as a light in a dark place and who to judge as being part of that darkness for being there.

Music is labelled as Christian in regards to the message of the lyrics. Instrumental music is not labelled as Christian, or I don't think it is. It wouldn't make any sense if it was. Music itself is neutral.

In literature we have "Christian fiction". ("Christian history" would not be a genre, but history relating specifically to Christians or Christianity.) It can be called Christian because it's meant to be about Christianity in some way. Perhaps an allegory.

We have "Christian speakers", although there's no real genre for speaking that I know of...but it is used, and it does give us some idea of the nature of what the speaker speaks on.

Whatever else it may be, labels like "Christian _____" are mainly giving us an idea of what we can expect from the product.

I think that careers are not given specific labels has more to do with the nature of the thing than anything else. There may be doctors who are Christians, but we don't label them in general as "Christian doctors" like we would a genre because Christianity has little if anything to do with being a doctor. If Christianity had anything significant to do with being a doctor, then we would have a "Christian doctor" label.


Just trying to explain why I don't get your point. It doesn't make any sense to me, because there are no genre labels to careers in the first place, Christian or not. What there are are different fields in a specific career, that give us an idea of what those fields are about. For example, off the top of my head, there is "veterinary practice", and under that one field would be "clinical practice". (Did a little reading on that, since I'm considering it myself. I probably got the names wrong, though.)

My point is that we try to create our own reality and priority list instead of accepting God's reality,you said being a doctor has nothing to do with Christianity,being a musician has nothing to do with Christianity either as many secular artist have shown us....every person regardless of their vocation is responsible for the life they live and the example they set,is a nurse chasing doctor who writes himself prescriptions for drugs any different than a groupy chasing hard drinking rock star ? does he not set an example for those around him ? does he not influence people around him ?...it is WE not God that has chosen to see music as some kind of special occupation worthy of extra scrutiny and criticism and higher standards. The very fact that we give special attention to entertainers is some indication what and who we think matters and is important,who should be looked up to and looked down upon.

 

[farouk]

Music is labelled as Christian in regards to the message of the lyrics. ...

questdriven: Yes, I agree about the importance of the lyrics.

Also you make a good, general linguistic point about Christian professionals / professionals who are Christians.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

My point is that we try to create our own reality and priority list instead of accepting God's reality,you said being a doctor has nothing to do with Christianity,being a musician has nothing to do with Christianity either as many secular artist have shown us....every person regardless of their vocation is responsible for the life they live and the example they set,is a nurse chasing doctor who writes himself prescriptions for drugs any different than a groupy chasing hard drinking rock star ? does he not set an example for those around him ? does he not influence people around him ?...it is WE not God that has chosen to see music as some kind of special occupation worthy of extra scrutiny and criticism and higher standards. The very fact that we give special attention to entertainers is some indication what and who we think matters and is important,who should be looked up to and looked down upon.

If you ask me, the label exists because there is a demand for music with a Christian message. So it makes perfect sense to say whether they're Christian or not. Turns it into a bit of a marketing gambit? Maybe. The label is still useful, and makes it easier for me to find what I'm looking for.
We don't need any such labels for doctors. We just don't have any use for such a label in their case.


Anyway, I believe I am beginning to understand what you are trying to say now. Now we're getting somewhere.


I agree that entertainment is people's main focus in this culture. You are making this out to be a negative thing--and I'm not saying I disagree with you. Entertainment isn't supposed to rule our lives, or take God's place in our lives. A lot of people, including me, struggle with balancing their desire for entertainment with the rest of their lives. (In my case, though, it's things like movies, TV shows, and the internet that tend to cause me problems. Music is actually helpful to me.)

HOWEVER: I think that music is popular is one reason some Christians wanted to get into music--they saw a witness and testimony opportunity.
I'm sure that's not the motivation of all Christian musicians, but it is with at least some of them. And even if it's not, I believe God still uses them. God has spoken to me through Christian music more times than I can count. The songs provide encouragement and remind me to focus on God. Christian music just speaks to me in a way that secular music does not.

Some Christian bands may still produce songs that seem to be more about entertainment than worship, that I listen to more for entertainment's sake than anything. I think even here there can be a witness potential--a lot of non-believers are fans of Christian bands like Skillet, where there's often (though not always) a Christian message in the lyrics, but it's more subtle. I think this could help to plant a seed in their heart. They may listen to the music, and when they find out that Skillet is Christian, it may interest them to find out more about it and the meaning behind some of the lyrics. Many of these people would want to avoid music that is blatantly Christian.


You may not agree with me, and that is fine. I just think Christian music serves a very real and useful purpose.

 

[jasoncran]

so we have Christian soldiers? Christian armies these days?

 

[farouk]

no genre labels to careers in the first place[/B], Christian or not. What there are are different fields in a specific career, that give us an idea of what those fields are about. For example, off the top of my head, there is "veterinary practice", and under that one field would be "clinical practice". (Did a little reading on that, since I'm considering it myself. I probably got the names wrong, though.)

questdriven:

So I guess for example (as per recent discussion as well) that you would say that a 'Christian tattoo parlor' is somewhat of a misnomer, whereas it would be more accurate to talk about 'Christians working in the tattoo industry'? (Or whatever other industry.)

If this is your point, I can see what you mean, yes.

On the other hand someone might still refer to a Christian band.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

so we have Christian soldiers? Christian armies these days?

I think the answer to this is no.

 

[jasoncran]

ok,well that is interesting, but I know what you meant. but when we do things are they not unto the lord? I mean I have been told in the army. give the army the 60% the rest unto the lord by many a saved Christians.

 

[farouk]

Some further thoughts: some people might even described Christian hard rock as counter-cultural.

Here I might take the opportunity to quote from something that @questdriven said a while back; not sure if I ever commented on it at the time, but which I think is very helpful and relevant:

An Atheist I was talking to once did tell me that rock & roll is about rebellion (I've heard that from at least one other secular source as well), and that is why she didn't like Christian rock because it has an entirely different message.

That she didn't feel that Christian rock had that attitude of rebellion, though, does say something--it's the attitude, not necessarily the music.


Speaking of rebellion, though--technically, we are rebelling against the world. So Christian rock is about rebellion, just a different kind. :D

I guess subjective things can change a lot over the course of time. Not least perception of music, dress, etc. Some of the tunes of the great hymns of the faith were once 'written off' as inappropriate. Whether or not some dress customs might have once been regarded as somehow rebellious, yet they would be regarded now as tame: for example, in 1965 someone aged 29 wearing a fashionable hemline would now be aged 77, and the hemline wouldn't be unusual among quite conservative women; if a woman and her daughter in about 1979 acquired what might then have been regarded as 'edgy' double pierced ears at the ages of, say, 46 and 19 respectively, they would now be aged 80 and 53 respectively, and the double studs would be regarded as rather unremarkable.

So I would instinctively be careful about criticizing cultural things, music, dress, etc., for being inherently rebellious as a 'bad' thing, or whatever; subjective impressions can change a lot over time.

 

[Mountain Man]

Its called being desensitized,situational ethics....and "everybody's doing it"

 

[farouk]

Its called being desensitized,situational ethics....and "everybody's doing it"

So are you referring to a particular style of music?

 

[Mountain Man]

Its called being desensitized,situational ethics....and "everybody's doing it"

So are you referring to a particular style of music?

I am referring to the idea that standards such as modesty and decency are or should be subject to societal whims or some kind of slippery slope where the direction is always down.The odd thing is that we use Music to accompany our sinful nature and then blame the Music instead of ourselves and our sinful nature.

 

[farouk]

Its called being desensitized,situational ethics....and "everybody's doing it"

So are you referring to a particular style of music?

I am referring to the idea that standards such as modesty and decency are or should be subject to societal whims or some kind of slippery slope where the direction is always down.

Oh I agree with you.

I thought maybe you were being more specific about a particular music style, maybe.

I don't think one can have absolute rules about certain things, whether music styles, or hemlines, or jewelry, etc., though.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't think one can have absolute rules about certain things, whether music styles, or hemlines, or jewelry, etc., though.

How 'bout pasties (I don't even know if I'm spelling it right, and I ain't gonna check, either, lol)? Should that be an absolute?

Do you think one day they will be socially acceptable outside of Sturgis, SD, and eventually adopted as appropriate public attire for women of the church?

Given the trend in society and the church's willingness to adopt the ways of the world these days, I'm not discounting it for one second.

 

[farouk]

I don't think one can have absolute rules about certain things, whether music styles, or hemlines, or jewelry, etc., though.

How 'bout pasties (I don't even know if I'm spelling it right, and I ain't gonna check, either, lol)? Should that be an absolute?

Do you think one day they will be socially acceptable outside of Sturgis, SD, and eventually adopted as appropriate public attire for women of the church?

Given the trend in society and the church's willingness to adopt the ways of the world these days, I'm not discounting it for one second.

J:

I think you've selected an example that might be described as deliberately immodest.

What I refuse to do, however, is try to make out, e.g., 'only pre-1965 level hemlines are permissable'. or 'only one ear stud per ear is permissible', etc., etc. In the end it's the spirit of the thing that matters. My wife and I have just been to a meeting where there were some very serious, conservative folk, and there were women there who would be described as very modest; the fact that they were wearing hemlines that in 1965 might have counted as miniskirts did not detract from an overall serious and modest deportment.

Also, some rock music is bad and some is not bad. Some has good Christian lyrics, and it's inevitable that some Christians are going to like it and other not. What I won't do is try to wield the 'big stick' and tell other Christians what sort of music they 'ought' to like.

One set of examples can be given, which can be countered by another set of counter-examples.

Jethro, I neither want to argue with you, neither do I want go down the route of legalism.

Romans 14 must mean something practically in terms of other people following their conscience in the way they exercise their Christian liberty.

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't think one can have absolute rules about certain things, whether music styles, or hemlines, or jewelry, etc., though.

How 'bout pasties (I don't even know if I'm spelling it right, and I ain't gonna check, either, lol)? Should that be an absolute?

Do you think one day they will be socially acceptable outside of Sturgis, SD, and eventually adopted as appropriate public attire for women of the church?

Given the trend in society and the church's willingness to adopt the ways of the world these days, I'm not discounting it for one second.

J:

I think you've selected an example that might be described as deliberately immodest.

Yes, it is at this time in Western culture.

My point was, there really are absolutes. That's all.

 

[farouk]

I don't think one can have absolute rules about certain things, whether music styles, or hemlines, or jewelry, etc., though.

How 'bout pasties (I don't even know if I'm spelling it right, and I ain't gonna check, either, lol)? Should that be an absolute?

Do you think one day they will be socially acceptable outside of Sturgis, SD, and eventually adopted as appropriate public attire for women of the church?

Given the trend in society and the church's willingness to adopt the ways of the world these days, I'm not discounting it for one second.

J:

I think you've selected an example that might be described as deliberately immodest.

Yes, it is at this time in Western culture.

My point was, there really are absolutes. That's all.

I agree.

(But cultural stuff is so often subjective.)

Blessings.