I wouldn't say God isn't in control of everything, for I believe He is in control of everything. What I do not believe is that He controls everything. There's a difference. This is where free will comes into play.
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Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?
- Thread starter LovethroughDove
- Start date
I didn't read through all the posts but I believe that practicality must be observed not just faith when it comes to serious issues like self defence.I mean sure im a Christian and I abhor violence because its another set back to out spirituall elevation but if somebody attacks me and I can defend myself then thats what im doing.I think some people go to ridiculous lengths in their belief of my belief.
Obadiah
Member
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Fish Catcher Jim
Member
I do agree with this as well. Any time God sends you some place or ask you do do something or calls you to do any task...............He already has made all the provision you will need and YES this does include protection as well.
It's up to us as believers to go in Faith and Total Trust or doubt and hinder and fail to be obedient. However there is a flip side to it as well. Just because we think it is a good thing or see it as a good thing does not make it a good thing for us. Some people base starting a ministry out of a need or opertunity they see and sometimes it simply is not God.
CenturionForChrist
Member
I’m writing this in response to the recent post on “Christians? Using Self-Defense and Guns? I am utterly disgusted with a lot of what I have read, so here’s my take and defending it by using God’s word. I hope to change your view on allowing evil to occur in your presence by showing you a bit of what I have learned from studying this subject from a biblical prospective. I have used my biblical verse mostly from the NIV and ESV Bibles.
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” - Hebrews 13:8
“For I theLord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed” Malachi 3:6
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was,I AM." John 8:58
As we see His ways do not change. When Jesus said “I AM” he meant it. He is the same God that slayed Goliath. Why is it that some Christians would stand idle in the face of evil? The pious attitude of “holier than thou” needs to stop. Those who stand idle while others are oppressed and slaughtered are worse than unbelievers in my opinion.
“But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth” 1 John 3:7-18.
“Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter” Proverbs 24:11.
“Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked”- Psalm 82:4
“Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever”- 1 Timothy 5:8
Most pacifist believers recite such verses and phrases as thou shalt not kill, do not resist an evil person and turn the other cheek. What such believers fail to understand is they must look into the whole Bible to understand God’s nature and his will for our lives and yes that’s right it means open up that series of books they call the “Old Testament”.
Oh but Christ did away with the teaching of the Old Testament you say and created new ones? You say the Old Testament is about war and living under harsh law and the New Testament is about love and compassion, Oh really? Not so fast! Do you pick and choose with verses to follow or read the Bible in its entirety "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished” – Matthew 5:17
Let’s look and break down some of Matthew 5 38-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighborand hate your enemy.’But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,that you may be childrenof your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?Are not even the tax collectors doing that?And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
1. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth-
As we see written in Matthew, Christ corrects the way of the norm of that day (and still is today) which was to equal the grief that somebody had caused you and to take revenge. The fact is this was never God’s intention at all, Christ was merely correcting and showing this. When Jesus said “You have heard that is was said” he is merely correcting the false teachings of the day, teachings that were never written in God’s word to begin with! The teaching of love your neighbor but hate your enemy was a false Pharisee teaching. Did you know revenge was already forbidden in the Old Testament?
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
The fact is God’s law of “an eye for and eye” was never intended for the individual to use for personal revenge. It was and still is intended for the government, that is, for the judges and law to execute and uphold the rule of law. We see this explained by Paul in Romans 13. The governments are God’s “agents of wrath” on the wrong doers!
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” - Hebrews 13:8
“For I theLord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed” Malachi 3:6
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was,I AM." John 8:58
As we see His ways do not change. When Jesus said “I AM” he meant it. He is the same God that slayed Goliath. Why is it that some Christians would stand idle in the face of evil? The pious attitude of “holier than thou” needs to stop. Those who stand idle while others are oppressed and slaughtered are worse than unbelievers in my opinion.
“But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth” 1 John 3:7-18.
“Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter” Proverbs 24:11.
“Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked”- Psalm 82:4
“Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever”- 1 Timothy 5:8
Most pacifist believers recite such verses and phrases as thou shalt not kill, do not resist an evil person and turn the other cheek. What such believers fail to understand is they must look into the whole Bible to understand God’s nature and his will for our lives and yes that’s right it means open up that series of books they call the “Old Testament”.
Oh but Christ did away with the teaching of the Old Testament you say and created new ones? You say the Old Testament is about war and living under harsh law and the New Testament is about love and compassion, Oh really? Not so fast! Do you pick and choose with verses to follow or read the Bible in its entirety "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished” – Matthew 5:17
Let’s look and break down some of Matthew 5 38-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighborand hate your enemy.’But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,that you may be childrenof your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?Are not even the tax collectors doing that?And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
1. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth-
As we see written in Matthew, Christ corrects the way of the norm of that day (and still is today) which was to equal the grief that somebody had caused you and to take revenge. The fact is this was never God’s intention at all, Christ was merely correcting and showing this. When Jesus said “You have heard that is was said” he is merely correcting the false teachings of the day, teachings that were never written in God’s word to begin with! The teaching of love your neighbor but hate your enemy was a false Pharisee teaching. Did you know revenge was already forbidden in the Old Testament?
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
The fact is God’s law of “an eye for and eye” was never intended for the individual to use for personal revenge. It was and still is intended for the government, that is, for the judges and law to execute and uphold the rule of law. We see this explained by Paul in Romans 13. The governments are God’s “agents of wrath” on the wrong doers!
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CenturionForChrist
Member
Continued....
1. Turn the other cheek-
The way I see it is Christ was merely talking about going the extra mile for people and “being the bigger person” in this often misused phrase. Notice Jesus used a slap on the cheek as an example, not a rape or stabbing. A peaceful solution is always best if possible, the apostle Paul seems to agree “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone” Romans 12:18.However, did you not know that Old Testament speaks of turning the other cheek?
“let him give his cheek to the one who strikes, and let him be filled with insults.” - Lamentations 3:30
“I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.” -Isaiah 15:6
Hmm I guess God forgot about this when he told David to slay Goliath, and Abraham should have never rallied an army of trained fighters to rescue Lot, they should have just turned the other cheek… of course not! The Lord would never expect anyone to stand idle while someone raped your wife or assaulted and or kidnapped someone you love. The list could go on and on.
2. Love your enemy’s
A common rebuttal by pacifists is the command by Jesus to love your enemy’s. Did you not know that love your enemy is also a teaching of the Old Testament?
“If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it.If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it. Exodus 23:4-5
“If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.” Proverbs 25:21
“Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles.” Proverbs 24:17
Jesus was merely as I have shown already repeating the things already written and inspired in the Old Testament and again he is the I AM and his teachings haven’t changed. He was reminding the Jews of their ignorance of God’s word. I guess David should have ordered his soldiers to embrace and hug their enemy’s in battle instead of kill them, of course not! As we know it is written he killed thousands in will of God!
3. What about the commandment thou shalt not kill?
I hope you don’t eat hamburgers if you say you believe in this. While some Bibles such as the King James version use the word “kill”. Agreed by scholars that a more literal correct translation from the actual Hebrew meaning should read “Murder” and in the Hebrew meaning it can also include the careless or unintentional taking of life such as when a person drives under the influence and kills someone in a car accident. Come on people if it God actually meant don’t kill anything not even in self defense, evil would run rampant in the world. Not to mention most of the Bibles most praised people such as King David or Joshua would have been in direct violation of God when they defended Israel from attack. Which we know wasn’t the case.
Common rebuttals I always encounter and my responses:
“We’ll I’ll just pray”- You shouldn’t tempt God, God gives you the mind and tools to overcome obstacles in life, use them. Do you close your eyes when driving? Do you lock you doors at night?
“I will call the police”- That is still “resisting an evil person” because the police are just doing the work you refuse to and I pray its not too late by the time they get there.
“I Would throw myself in front of the killer to defend the person”- Sort of a noble idea I guess, again your still “resisting an evil person” and not quite “Turning the other cheek” and now your becoming part of the problem, just a slight delay before he finishes off his objective.
Look at the entirety of the Bible. Self-defense is ordained by God and is a natural right given to men. Just as sex can be a sin it can also be a gift from God when used in purity such as between a married couples. Violence as we see is the same way. When used in vengeance or in unjust reason it is a sin. However it is not a sin to defend the innocence of yourself and others and I would say is not viewed as violence in God’s eyes. You don’t have to be doormats to evil! As the Bible teaches you can still love your enemy, love your neighbor as yourself and defend yourself and others.
In closing if you want to stand idle in the face of oppression of the innocent then maybe you should follow Gandhi. What would Jesus do you say? We’ll I’ve shown above what he has done and said. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and the New, yes he loves all but he also hates lawlessness. When he said I AM he meant it. Do not forget when he returns to earth again he will come with a sword and battle the wicked armies. Even Christ instructed the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy a sword (and yes he did mean literal swords). We saw that they did indeed carry them when Simon Peter drew it. Look into God’s word what I have just shown you are just some of the many examples of God’s view on self-defense. Remember there is a time and place for all things.
1. Turn the other cheek-
The way I see it is Christ was merely talking about going the extra mile for people and “being the bigger person” in this often misused phrase. Notice Jesus used a slap on the cheek as an example, not a rape or stabbing. A peaceful solution is always best if possible, the apostle Paul seems to agree “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone” Romans 12:18.However, did you not know that Old Testament speaks of turning the other cheek?
“let him give his cheek to the one who strikes, and let him be filled with insults.” - Lamentations 3:30
“I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.” -Isaiah 15:6
Hmm I guess God forgot about this when he told David to slay Goliath, and Abraham should have never rallied an army of trained fighters to rescue Lot, they should have just turned the other cheek… of course not! The Lord would never expect anyone to stand idle while someone raped your wife or assaulted and or kidnapped someone you love. The list could go on and on.
2. Love your enemy’s
A common rebuttal by pacifists is the command by Jesus to love your enemy’s. Did you not know that love your enemy is also a teaching of the Old Testament?
“If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it.If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it. Exodus 23:4-5
“If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.” Proverbs 25:21
“Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles.” Proverbs 24:17
Jesus was merely as I have shown already repeating the things already written and inspired in the Old Testament and again he is the I AM and his teachings haven’t changed. He was reminding the Jews of their ignorance of God’s word. I guess David should have ordered his soldiers to embrace and hug their enemy’s in battle instead of kill them, of course not! As we know it is written he killed thousands in will of God!
3. What about the commandment thou shalt not kill?
I hope you don’t eat hamburgers if you say you believe in this. While some Bibles such as the King James version use the word “kill”. Agreed by scholars that a more literal correct translation from the actual Hebrew meaning should read “Murder” and in the Hebrew meaning it can also include the careless or unintentional taking of life such as when a person drives under the influence and kills someone in a car accident. Come on people if it God actually meant don’t kill anything not even in self defense, evil would run rampant in the world. Not to mention most of the Bibles most praised people such as King David or Joshua would have been in direct violation of God when they defended Israel from attack. Which we know wasn’t the case.
Common rebuttals I always encounter and my responses:
“We’ll I’ll just pray”- You shouldn’t tempt God, God gives you the mind and tools to overcome obstacles in life, use them. Do you close your eyes when driving? Do you lock you doors at night?
“I will call the police”- That is still “resisting an evil person” because the police are just doing the work you refuse to and I pray its not too late by the time they get there.
“I Would throw myself in front of the killer to defend the person”- Sort of a noble idea I guess, again your still “resisting an evil person” and not quite “Turning the other cheek” and now your becoming part of the problem, just a slight delay before he finishes off his objective.
Look at the entirety of the Bible. Self-defense is ordained by God and is a natural right given to men. Just as sex can be a sin it can also be a gift from God when used in purity such as between a married couples. Violence as we see is the same way. When used in vengeance or in unjust reason it is a sin. However it is not a sin to defend the innocence of yourself and others and I would say is not viewed as violence in God’s eyes. You don’t have to be doormats to evil! As the Bible teaches you can still love your enemy, love your neighbor as yourself and defend yourself and others.
In closing if you want to stand idle in the face of oppression of the innocent then maybe you should follow Gandhi. What would Jesus do you say? We’ll I’ve shown above what he has done and said. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and the New, yes he loves all but he also hates lawlessness. When he said I AM he meant it. Do not forget when he returns to earth again he will come with a sword and battle the wicked armies. Even Christ instructed the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy a sword (and yes he did mean literal swords). We saw that they did indeed carry them when Simon Peter drew it. Look into God’s word what I have just shown you are just some of the many examples of God’s view on self-defense. Remember there is a time and place for all things.
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CenturionForChrist
Member
Continued...
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace. Ecclesiastes 3:1
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace. Ecclesiastes 3:1
LovethroughDove
Member
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1 John 4:7-12 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God: but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Jesus did take everything up a notch because he gives ALL power over to God.
In Matthew 12:26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself.
Now, do you see that this is how the world is currently?
But, if we begin to follow the Holy Spirit.......this .......Matthew 12:28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Like I said............we had over justice completely to God.
LovethroughDove
Member
I mean, "we hand justice over"
Chopper
Member
Good reply my new friend.
CenturionForChrist
Member
LtD,
What you fail to recognize is God's word in its entirety. You pick and choose what sounds good and seem to ignore that Jesus Christ is the God of Abraham, Joshua and David, men who risk their lives and physically fought evil and freed the oppressed. I read an earlier post of yours, where you claim that the military should give up their arms. How do you explain Romans chapter 13 which states that the military has the right to use the sword? [Off topic. Also a troll violating ToS 2.4]
“Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked”- Psalm 82:4
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It seems that there are those who view "love your enemies" as a license to let them walk all over you, take advantage of you, rape, kill and destroy you. The belief is, if we do nothing to stop them, they will somehow come to the Lord this way, they will "see our love" and decide to switch sides and suddenly come to their senses.
Not sure why there are those who believe God morphed into someone different and that His Ways did, too.
LovethroughDove
Member
Centurion - If I was born in a Muslim country and I was Christian, I would still submit to authority.
Remember when Jesus said, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar, and to God what is God's". God is talking about all authority. Does that mean I am going to fight for Muslim military, No...just like I'm not going to fight for American military.
It means, submit........that doesn't mean you become part of it.
[Removed response to deleted comment.]
I have total faith in God only! If I die today, I die free!
I have posted before that Christians follow Christ and what he did on earth. We are not Davidians, we do not follow what David did. David looked forward to the day that the Christ would come, and people look to David as their role model.
Remember when Jesus said, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar, and to God what is God's". God is talking about all authority. Does that mean I am going to fight for Muslim military, No...just like I'm not going to fight for American military.
It means, submit........that doesn't mean you become part of it.
[Removed response to deleted comment.]
I have total faith in God only! If I die today, I die free!
I have posted before that Christians follow Christ and what he did on earth. We are not Davidians, we do not follow what David did. David looked forward to the day that the Christ would come, and people look to David as their role model.
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CenturionForChrist
Member
Amen. I'm not sure why people follow Ghandi and not God.
Never thought of that, but yes, it seems they have placed Ghandi up there to follow.
What I hear from the other side in this thread, sounds nothing like the God of the Bible.
CenturionForChrist
Member
What are Davidians? [Violation of ToS 2.4. Respect where others are in their faith.] God is a God of justice. Do you blieve Christians shouldn't serve in the military[ removed inflammatory]? I am free also and would never turn a blind eye to freeing the oppressed or stand idle in the face of evil. There are wolves, sheep and sheepdogs in life, I am a sheepdog. Jesus is our shepherd. Theres nothing necessarily wrong with being a sheep, but even a sheep under pressure will fight back. God planted justice in your nature for a reason. You said if you were in a Muslim country you would submit to authority? Be careful because Romans 13 can be taken greatly out of context also. Hitler himself used it as a way to woo the Germans to do terrible things.
Provide Biblical reference for opposing views per forum guidelines.
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LovethroughDove
Member
Davidians are people who raise David actions above Jesus the Christ's actions.
Deuteronomy 32:35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay. Who is saying that? I'm sure it is not you or I.
You are talking about our sin nature that is planted. Our flesh wants to protect our flesh.
Deuteronomy 32:35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay. Who is saying that? I'm sure it is not you or I.
You are talking about our sin nature that is planted. Our flesh wants to protect our flesh.
CenturionForChrist
Member
It is not a sin to uphold justice. Again your taking the Bible out of context. Notice how that verse is rooted in the Old Testament? Abraham and trained warriors fought and rescued Lot from his captures in Genesis 14. David killed Goliath. Joshua led an army to Jericho and conquered it, the list goes on and on. Your also talking about revenge, an eye for an eye, which is never meant for the individual in the first place. Jesus corrected the Pharisee and their false oral doctrine by saying "You have heard it was said". Self defense in the moment of its occurrence is not revenge.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ Matthew 5:38