Church Or Jail, Conversion through Duress.

[Pebbles]

In a small town in Alabama a new policy is begin trialed by the police department.

http://gawker.com/5843940/alabama-town-offers-church-or-jail-sentencing-choice

Basically small time offenders those guilty of drug possession charges are begin given a choice in their sentancing. Attend church every sunday for a set period of time or serve time in Jail.

The arguement is that offenders do have a choice... Jail or Church.

At this point I woundered about the qualification of "church" in the sentance so I did additional research.
from what I can gather from other sources their is a list of "churches" from whitch an offender would be able to choose from so you can't just invent a church and attend it... Also however notably This list dose not have any Synagogues or Mosques highlighted on it and indeed when consulted Jews and Muslims and all religious minorities were excluded from the talks.

The police cheif when questioned about this law outright stated
"You show me somebody who falls in love with Jesus, and I'll show you a person who won't be a problem to society,"
So conversion is obiviously the stated role not community projects.

Now my views are obvious (I'm hostile but totally unsuprised.)

However I don't necessarily know the views of other christians in this notion.
I'm aware that the USA based christians feel that the provision of seperation of church and state is a one-way process (Ie that state should not meddle in church but not vice-versa 'Government ruled by biblical testiment')

Yet however I've heard it stated from a much larger segment of this forum that Conversion under duress is wrong. That conversion should never be pushed.

So I don't know what your views are. So forum I ask you what are your opinions. with this case but also in general about mandating faith and what duress can be employed to encourage it.

 

[Classik]

In a small town in Alabama a new policy is begin trialed by the police department.

http://gawker.com/5843940/alabama-town-offers-church-or-jail-sentencing-choice

Basically small time offenders those guilty of drug possession charges are begin given a choice in their sentancing. Attend church every sunday for a set period of time or serve time in Jail.

The arguement is that offenders do have a choice... Jail or Church.

At this point I woundered about the qualification of "church" in the sentance so I did additional research.
from what I can gather from other sources their is a list of "churches" from whitch an offender would be able to choose from so you can't just invent a church and attend it... Also however notably This list dose not have any Synagogues or Mosques highlighted on it and indeed when consulted Jews and Muslims and all religious minorities were excluded from the talks.

The police cheif when questioned about this law outright stated
"You show me somebody who falls in love with Jesus, and I'll show you a person who won't be a problem to society,"
So conversion is obiviously the stated role not community projects.

Now my views are obvious (I'm hostile but totally unsuprised.)

However I don't necessarily know the views of other christians in this notion.
I'm aware that the USA based christians feel that the provision of seperation of church and state is a one-way process (Ie that state should not meddle in church but not vice-versa 'Government ruled by biblical testiment')

Yet however I've heard it stated from a much larger segment of this forum that Conversion under duress is wrong. That conversion should never be pushed.

So I don't know what your views are. So forum I ask you what are your opinions. with this case but also in general about mandating faith and what duress can be employed to encourage it.

I am surprised and not shocked. Conversion under duress is wrong. I agree with that. Christians don't do that. (I don't know for others). --
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I wonder under what motive this option is being used. I see Something of symbolism in it.
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I believe in such a place you have non-christians and as well as People who do not believe in a god.
**
**
I found in the link:
--
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Rowland responded that the policy doesn't violate the separation of church and state because the offender can choose whichever church he wants. Rowland also noted that non-Christians can choose their own place of worship, though the Press-Register pointed out that no mosques or synagogues are participating in the program because there are none in the area.
--
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How about People who do not believe in a god.
**
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Rowland said: "When the alternative to going to church is going to jail, the so-called 'choice' available to offenders is no choice at all,"
**
**

Does 'going to church' make one less an offender? Perhaps
Some could still pretend to have changed positively. Going to church could still change some, I know.
**
**
However, if that could bring a change . If that could change a community positively, Pebbles, I see nothing wrong with it. Besides: 'doing prison time and paying a fine' could have a negative impact on People. 90% and above would avoid Going to prison as they think...'what is there to lose when I go to church etc?'

 

[jasoncran]

so its a whole lot of nothing. move along then. what is the difference of this and forced military service?which was done years ago, jail or enlist. i know a lot of old timers that way older then me that did that.

 

[stovebolts]

Pebbles,

They have a choice... Church, or Jail.

I did several years lockup as a teen both in Juvenile and institution. In Juvenile you had a choice twice a week to "go to church", or "stay in your room".

Most went to church (so we could get out of our 6x10 cinder block room), but there were a few who decided to stay in their room. Again, it was their choice. Actually, everyone was excited to get out of their room, so that alone was a positive, and there isn't anything wrong with lifting the moral of a few hundred teens by letting them get out of their room, regardless of the pretense... and we didn't have to work lol!

Church never hurt anyone that I know of. In the Protestant churches, well.... at least in my experience the sermons are more practical than they are theological, and honestly, some people just need to hear of a better way to live and understand that we all make mistakes, and we can all be forgiven. Some just need to know that they are not alone, and everyone isn't like the people they generally hang around with, and that not all church folk are elite, self righteous snots.

So I don't see a problem, and I don't see any type of conversion through duress. Christianity can make you look deep inside yourself, and that's always a good thing. Most programs mandate some sort of counseling which causes one to look deep within oneself and often the criminal is given a choice in that matter too... Jail, or counseling. Jail or AA etc.

I don't see a problem.

 

[WIP]

so its a whole lot of nothing. move along then. what is the difference of this and forced military service?which was done years ago, jail or enlist. i know a lot of old timers that way older then me that did that.

Possibly a question of constitutionality. The first amendment prohibits the state from making any law respecting the establishment of religion or impeding the free exercise therof. It seems that if the state is listing particular "churches" then the state is promoting these particular churches.

 

[Rhea]

so its a whole lot of nothing. move along then. what is the difference of this and forced military service?

Well, Military Service makes you actually *DO* something, not just attend, for one thing

Rowland responded that the policy doesn't violate the separation of church and state because the offender can choose whichever church he wants. Rowland also noted that non-Christians can choose their own place of worship, though the Press-Register pointed out that no mosques or synagogues are participating in the program because there are none in the area.

So, no, you can't choose your own church.

So I don't see a problem, and I don't see any type of conversion through duress. Christianity can make you look deep inside yourself, and that's always a good thing.

Now this is confusing because in the thread about using church attendance as a predictor of religious devotion, quite a few people were proclaiming that there are a lot of "I'll never recognize you in heaven" Christians-in-quotes filling up the pews, and that didn't count as "religious" even though they were voluntarily going to church four times a month!


So it seems as though this judge is willing to make a token exploitation of the church and the legal system and doesn't really care that anything gets done.

Wouldn't it be better (much better) to go to a life-coach or behavior class every week, where you actually have to participate in some way? Rather than say, "go sit in that pew for an hour".

 

[eddy]

Its just a ploy for attention from a small town politician. He knows the rule is illegal, but he looking to run for higher office so is trying to score points. You can't save people with dishonesty and force.

 

[stovebolts]

Well, Military Service makes you actually *DO* something, not just attend, for one thing



So, no, you can't choose your own church.




Now this is confusing because in the thread about using church attendance as a predictor of religious devotion, quite a few people were proclaiming that there are a lot of "I'll never recognize you in heaven" Christians-in-quotes filling up the pews, and that didn't count as "religious" even though they were voluntarily going to church four times a month!


So it seems as though this judge is willing to make a token exploitation of the church and the legal system and doesn't really care that anything gets done.

Wouldn't it be better (much better) to go to a life-coach or behavior class every week, where you actually have to participate in some way? Rather than say, "go sit in that pew for an hour".

So, I take it you would be one that decided to stay in Jail

What I don't get, is why everyone is complaining. Geesh, suppose we should just let them criminals sit and rot in jail huh?

 

[eddy]

So, I take it you would be one that decided to stay in Jail

What I don't get, is why everyone is complaining. Geesh, suppose we should just let them criminals sit and rot in jail huh?

Deleted

 

[Rhea]

So, I take it you would be one that decided to stay in Jail

Good gracious, no. I would take the Right Honorable Good Judge's silly and obviously meaningless advice to get out of the all-week jail sentence and instead live my life the way I want and do my time one hour a week in a different sort of jail that hopefully has pretty windows and interesting hats to look at.

What I don't get, is why everyone is complaining. Geesh, suppose we should just let them criminals sit and rot in jail huh?

Nope. According to my post, we should get them some training/classes/psychiatric assistance and make a difference in their behavior.

here's my post - you even quoted it.

Wouldn't it be better (much better) to go to a life-coach or behavior class every week, where you actually have to participate in some way? Rather than say, "go sit in that pew for an hour".

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think if they open it up to non-religious entities, like 12 step programs or counselors offering pro bono services, then its cool. Also, they'd need to open it up to *all* religious groups in the area. The problems with getting them counseling are a) that costs money, and the public mental health system is already overburdened and underfunded in most areas and b) counseling/therapy usually isn't all that effective, even though its being pushed on virtually everybody, for everything. That said, I do think the non-religious should have an option to either do some kind of low/no-cost treatment, like group therapy or a 12 step program, or pay for their own psychological/psychiatric services.

Church, of course, is free, which is one reason I like this program: saves taxpayers money on jail, spares misdemeanor offenders the pain of jail time, and makes churches a more active part of the community.

 

[Rhea]

b) counseling/therapy usually isn't all that effective, even though its being pushed on virtually everybody, for everything.

What makes you sure of this?
(says the mother whose son is benefiting quite significantly from occupational therapy to combat classroom behavior issues and who has quite a lot of contact with other parents of kids who are making changes)

 

[Rhea]

~Rhea does a web search on the terms recidivism rates with behavioral therapy and discovers that

Based on prior family interaction studies and a systems conceptualization of deviant behavior, a specific, short-term behaviorally oriented family intervention program designed to increase family reciprocity, clarity of communication, and contingency contracting was developed and tested with the families of 128 13-16 yr old juvenile delinquents. Families receiving the program demonstrated significant changes in 3 family interaction measures at the end of therapy, and also significantly reduced recidivism rates at follow-up when compared to families receiving alternate forms of family therapy or no professional treatment. Results demonstrate the utility of a therapy evaluation philosophy that includes a clear description of intervention techniques, a description of expected process changes, stringent nonreactive outcome measures, and controls for maturation and attention placebo. (22 ref.) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)

and

In a university-based study, Burnett (1997) matched two groups of
30 parolees in Washington state parole field offices and assigned one group to
MRT and the other to standard supervision. After 7 months he found a 10%
rearrest rate in the MRT group and a 20% rearrest rate in the controls.
Boston (2001) evaluated a voluntary counseling program in Portland,
Oregon designed to assist probationers to obtain and retain employment. The
study looked at rearrests, reindictments, and reincarcerations in 68 clients who
attended the program and 68 who had applied voluntarily but did not attend.
Six months after entry, 3% of the treated group had rearrests compared to
12% of controls.
In the most recent study, Anderson (2002) compared the one-year rearrest
rates of 1,503 high-risk parolees assigned to MRT to 871 parolees in a matched
control group in Illinois. Results showed that the MRT-treated group showed
significantly fewer rearrests (10% in the MRT group; 33% in the comparisons).
Combining the participants and data in these studies produces an MRTtreated group of 1601 and a matched comparison group of 969. All MRTtreated participants (including dropouts and program completers) showed a
9.7% rearrest rate. The comparison group showed a 31% rearrest rate.

and

MacKenzie (2006) and her colleagues conducted a literature review and a meta-analysis of the literature and concluded that “cognitive-behavioral programs appear to be effective in reducing future criminal activities of offenders.”[ii] Aos et al. (2006) and Drake et al (2009) completed a meta-analysis of 545 studies of correctional programs.[iii] They concluded that the following cognitive-behavior programs were effective in reducing recidivism (followed by the percentage reduction in the recidivism rate); Cognitive-behavior drug treatment in prison (-6.8%), general and specific cognitive-behavioral treatment programs for the general offender population (-8.2%), sex offender cognitive-behavioral treatment in prison (-14.9%), and cognitive-behavioral treatment for low risk sex offenders on probation (-31.2%). [iv] Drake et al (2009) found that cognitive-behavioral therapy in prison or the community had one of the highest cost-benefit ratios of the treatment regimes they evaluated.[v]

If you compare the cost of this therapy to the cost of going back to jail (via the court and probabtion systems) plus the cost of crime, it is actually quite a terrific deal.


edited to add - doing a second search on recidivism rates with court ordered church attendance turned up no scientific results.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I certainly would prefer counseling to jail time. Anything is better than incarceration for most people, and for society as a whole.

http://learntheology.com/the-myth-that-psychology-is-effective.html

Also, if you're interested, Dr.Thomas Szasz wrote an excellent book, "The Myth of Psychotherapy," a sort of follow-up and companion to "The Myth of Mental Illness."

 

[Acebopata]

Perhaps it's not a good idea, perhaps it is. At least you got a choice in the matter.

My concern is that someone will chose church and then reoffend. But if it stops crime, then it could be worth the risk.

Personally, I'd never allow people to attempt it in Hevaten, although younger teens might have a similar program, (I'm still looking into that.). It's just a little too risky, and Hevaten cannot risk anything. (We'd only have about 150 or so square miles at most when we fully break form the union.)

As a side note, I wonder if those two hikers held in Iran where subjected to a religious conversion attempt?

 

[Rhea]

I certainly would prefer counseling to jail time. Anything is better than incarceration for most people, and for society as a whole.
"

anything except being crime free, for some. Just a note of irony.
But the fact that the cognitive behavioral therapy helps to keep some people from committing more crimes is definitely good for society as a whole!

 

[handy]

I don't really have a problem with offering someone a choice between church and jail time...but I think it's skating on some thin ice to make it only Christian churches and not synagogues or mosques.

I think the police chief is either a: (more cynically) running for office and wants to get some attention as was suggested, or b: (more charitably) a little naive as to the power of Sunday morning church services.

Frankly, I'm not for jail time at all...except for the worst of crimes: Murder, Rape, Aggravated Assault and Battery. Other crimes I think they should do things like being enrolled in some kind of program where a criminal has to do two things: Show a real change in direction in life and make restitution for the crime committed. Yes, this can include becoming a part of a church, but it needs to be more than just sittin' in the pew on Sunday.

Jail is way overused and ineffective as done in America.

 

[Rhea]

http://learntheology.com/the-myth-that-psychology-is-effective.html

Also, if you're interested, Dr.Thomas Szasz wrote an excellent book, "The Myth of Psychotherapy," a sort of follow-up and companion to "The Myth of Mental Illness."

There are no citations of controlled studies to back up the author's claims (the citations in the article link right back to the article). The only "study" mentioned by names was from 1952, with a 1965 follow up.

I posted controlled, current day studies to back up my claims that it works. Religion may not change in 50 years, but medicine and behavioral knowledge do.

 

[stovebolts]

Good gracious, no. I would take the Right Honorable Good Judge's silly and obviously meaningless advice to get out of the all-week jail sentence and instead live my life the way I want and do my time one hour a week in a different sort of jail that hopefully has pretty windows and interesting hats to look at.




Nope. According to my post, we should get them some training/classes/psychiatric assistance and make a difference in their behavior.

here's my post - you even quoted it.

If it's silly for you, you don't have to go. However, it may be just was a few of them need. I for one came to Christ when I was locked up. The choice I made changed the course of my life. I was mean and had a lot of hate built up inside me and I was a liar and a thief. Coming to Christ saved me from myself you could say, and it helped society because I started to become a better person, and even though I was surrounded by a bunch of criminals, my Dad was an alcoholic and my mom is scitzo... I found somebody that I could rely on. From your perspective, I'm sure you think that this Jesus is just some made up friend of mine. So what, if that's how you view it that's a-ok with me. I'm just gonna tell you and others the Jesus changed my life, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

But what is the route psychology and psychiatry has played in the role of developing our country? Huge grants have been given to psychiatry since the 50's to make our society a "better place". Thank's Dr. Freud for minimizing us to a mere piece of flesh where we treat the symptoms of sin with psychotropic drugs and the infamous shock treatment... Yeah, the USA is a much better place to live since we've taken God out of the classroom and put psychiatry in it's place...

Besides, do you honestly know how many social programs are out there for people who have gone to jail? Sorry to say, but those programs don't make that much of a difference, but they sure feed the system.

 

[Rhea]

If it's silly for you, you don't have to go.

But I would, because silly is better than locked up.

From your perspective, I'm sure you think that this Jesus is just some made up friend of mine. So what, if that's how you view it that's a-ok with me. I'm just gonna tell you and others the Jesus changed my life, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Things that change our behavior are very much a part of us. My comments are that the behavioral therapy has a better track record than forced church attendance. I am very happy for you - truly - to be living and enjoying the life you now have rather than the path you were on. Perhaps you would have found Jesus even with therapy.

But the studies I posted showed pretty clearly that you can cut a return to crime by 1/2 with interventions.

See the thing is, this judge has done nothing to make sure the kids actually *DO* anything in the church she is sending them to. That's nuts, IMHO.

Besides, do you honestly know how many social programs are out there for people who have gone to jail? Sorry to say, but those programs don't make that much of a difference, but they sure feed the system.

The research and rates of returning to the criminal system show that they do work, and quite well.

I have not been able to find a study of whether and how well forced church attendance works.