Bible Study Colossians 1:16-20 Question

[Rick W]

As far as:

That's right, we are sinning machines. God created us to sin. We have no mythical "free-will" not to sin. God wants us to sin. It's part of His Perfect Plan.

I'm not even going to comment.


Edit:
Maybe I just did. Dunno

 

[Relic]

.


Amen PotLuck,


Way too much of the bible wouldn't make any sense if we didn't have our own freedom of will.

The debate of freewill and predestination can and is debated with scripture. Here's an example of philosophical thinking on the subject.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/foreknow.htm#section1

I'm not about to get into all that.

That link leads to some very heavy intense reading.

In light of the heavy duty philosopical approach, please do excuse my previous "elementary" approach. I did hope to have gotten the point across. I hope it wasn't taken the wrong way. There are enough confusing and confounding messages posted around this place. :-?


.

 

[Rick W]

In light of the heavy duty philosopical approach, please do excuse my previous "elementary" approach. I did hope to have gotten the point across. I hope it wasn't taken the wrong way. There are enough confusing and confounding messages posted around this place. :-?

I posted that link simply to emphasis the sheer thought that can go into the subject. "Elementary" is about as far as I care to go into that topic. ;)

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Oh, look how much you posted before I could counter some of your posts.

Peter denied Christ three times!

They used their own wills freely to turn away from God and turn toward sin OF WHICH GOD IS TOTALLY AGAINST FOR US TO FOLLOW AFTER!

Umm... if I remember correctly, Peter adamently stated that he, of his own free-will, would never deny Jesus Christ. What happened? Peter denied Christ, just as He said Peter would. Peter was predestined to reject Christ. He never had the Free-Will to stop it from happening.

I suggest you take some bible lessons from someone other than those UR cult people you've been listening to because they are blowing your mind worse than any dope addict on pot can ever do.

No, I don't think I want to take lessons from the Pharisees. I'm not even going to try and disprove all of your agruments. It would take up too much of my time. You've completely ignored the Scriptures I have quoted, brushing them aside as if they don't matter. Well, I don't want to be guilty of that.

John 15:6 (New King James Version) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

I believe this is talking about the Lake of Fire. This in no way contradicts what I believe.

John 7:45-48 (King James Version) Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? The officers answered, Never man spake like this man[JESUS]. Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

I've never heard so many great things about Jesus Christ as I am now learning, through the so called UR Cultists. Never man spake like this. You are telling me, "are you also decieved?" Which one of the rulers or Pharisees[RELIGIOUS LEADERS] believed on him.

The same thing which happened 2000 years ago, we are now living today. We have our Modern Day Pharisees controlling Chirstianity as a whole. "Grevious Wolves" have surely entered in among us and they did not spare the flock.

Matthew 22:14 (King James Version) For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Rick W]

There is no way you're going to convince me God created us to sin or that God wants us to sin. This only sidesteps our accountability making us blameless and not responsible for what we do for then it would be God who is responsible, not us.

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Adam not only blames Eve but blames God for giving him the woman in the first place. If that was true, that it was God's fault for giving Adam the woman Eve, then there would be no grounds for God's judgment against Adam.

This isn't fantasy, it's not a game. Sin is serious business against God. And when you stand before the judgment seat believing God is to blame I seriously doubt God will give you any more leniency than He did Adam.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

There is no way you're going to convince me God created us to sin or that God wants us to sin. This only sidesteps our accountability making us blameless and not responsible for what we do for then it would be God who is responsible, not us.

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Adam not only blames Eve but blames God for giving him the woman in the first place. If that was true, that it was God's fault for giving Adam the woman Eve, then there would be no grounds for God's judgment against Adam.

Romans 9:19-23 (King James Version) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

This isn't fantasy, it's not a game. Sin is serious business against God. And when you stand before the judgment seat believing God is to blame I seriously doubt God will give you any more leniency than He did Adam.

God is ultimately responsible but we are still held accountible for our wills. Now our wills might not have been able to not sin but it doesn't matter how we got dirty in the mud, the mud still has to be remove.

 

[Rick W]

All will be saved
No freewill
God wants us to sin
We are created to sin
There is no eternal Hell
there is no eternal separation from God
No bible is the Inspired Word of God
God made us subject to vanity
Repentance after death
God is ultimately responsible

That's quite a bible you have there Gendou Ikari.
Anyway, do the majority of Universal Reconciliationists believe likewise? Because I honestly don't know.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

All will be saved
No freewill
God wants us to sin
We are created to sin
There is no eternal Hell
there is no eternal separation from God
No bible is the Inspired Word of God
God made us subject to vanity
Repentance after death
God is ultimately responsible

That's quite a bible you have there Gendou Ikari.
Anyway, do the majority of Universal Reconciliationists believe likewise? Because I honestly don't know.

Universal Reconciliationists are as diverse as other Christian sects. The only uniting factor is that we all believe in the Salvation of All.

No bible is the Inspired Word of God

When I say the word, "Bible" I always mean a human translation, never the original Greek and Hebrew Scriptural Manuscripts; those Manuscripts are the Word of God.

 

[Rick W]

No bible is the Inspired Word of God

When I say the word, "Bible" I always mean a human translation, never the original Greek and Hebrew Scriptural Manuscripts; those Manuscripts are the Word of God.

I can't read the original Greek and Hebrew scriptural manuscripts. I doubt you can either.
Bibles contain scripture obviously which came from "original Greek and Hebrew scriptural manuscripts". I know English but regardless of nationality it's not likely to be the language of the original manuscripts.
That means somewhere somehow people who don't speak the original languages must have some translation.
I always mean a human translation
Ok, let's run with that.
Essentially then, no bible or any piece of scripture from the original manuscripts can be trusted no matter who translates them because the "who" will invariably be human.
So looking at this objectively the translation I accept is or can be just as flawed as yours. In other words, my translation could be wrong, your translation could be wrong, the King James could be wrong, all who profess a different meaning of words, verses, messages (translations) cannot be trusted. We're human. William C. Rebmann is human too so his translation cannot be trusted either.

What that leaves is reason to believe what you want, what you don't want and ignore the rest as inconsequential or irrelevant. So go out there and find something that feels good that fits your own desires because nobody has anything for you that you can trust as being true.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I can't read the original Greek and Hebrew scriptural manuscripts. I doubt you can either.
Bibles contain scripture obviously which came from "original Greek and Hebrew scriptural manuscripts". I know English but regardless of nationality it's not likely to be the language of the original manuscripts.
That means somewhere somehow people who don't speak the original languages must have some translation.
I always mean a human translation
Ok, let's run with that.
Essentially then, no bible or any piece of scripture from the original manuscripts can be trusted no matter who translates them because the "who" will invariably be human.
So looking at this objectively the translation I accept is or can be just as flawed as yours. In other words, my translation could be wrong, your translation could be wrong, the King James could be wrong, all who profess a different meaning of words, verses, messages (translations) cannot be trusted. We're human. William C. Rebmann is human too so his translation cannot be trusted either.

What that leaves is reason to believe what you want, what you don't want and ignore the rest as inconsequential or irrelevant. So go out there and find something that feels good that fits your own desires because nobody has anything for you that you can trust as being true.

This is why it helps to have many different Bible translations and never accept what one says an undenible truth of God. The Scriptures have to be spiritually discerned and we are carnal. We need God's guiding spirit to make us understand the deep things of God; we cannot do it on our own.

 

[Rick W]

This is why it helps to have many different Bible translations and never accept what one says an undenible truth of God. The Scriptures have to be spiritually discerned and we are carnal. We need God's guiding spirit to make us understand the deep things of God; we cannot do it on our own.

The NWT (Jehovah Witness) translation for John 1:1
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.

Colossians 1:16-17
NWT: because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

John 8:58
NWT: Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.â€Â



Some of Joseph Smith's translations:

1 Corinthians 15:40 "There are three degrees of glory in the resurrection."
http://scriptures.lds.org/jst/1cr1540

Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for."
http://scriptures.lds.org/jst/hb111

1 Timothy 6:15-16 "Those who have the light of immortality dwelling in them can see Jesus." http://scriptures.lds.org/jst/1tm61516

Matthew 21:33 "Man must repent before he can believe in Christ."
http://scriptures.lds.org/jst/mtt2133

I'm quite sure the above verses are spiritually discerned by the JW or the Mormon depending on who you talk to. And who's to say their spiritual discernment is wrong? Right?

This is why it helps to have many different Bible translations and never accept what one says an undenible truth of God.

Yeah, I see where that could come in handy. A little of this and a little of that to fit one's spiritual discernment. So if one text doesn't feel quite right then reject it and find one that feels better.

So who's discernment is right if there's conflict? Who's is from God and who's isn't? Do we then get a panel of discerning people and take a vote? Do we include all religions on the "spiritual discernment panel"?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Yeah, I see where that could come in handy. A little of this and a little of that to fit one's spiritual discernment. So if one text doesn't feel quite right then reject it and find one that feels better.

No, that would make you guilty of exegesis. Now, I want to ask you a question. Which Bible did you choose to make the Infallible Word of God? Since you should only use one.

 

[Rick W]

Which Bible did you choose to make the Infallible Word of God? Since you should only use one.

Please bear with me Ikari,

So you believe that all English versions are wrong interpretation?

Basically... most of the passages in the King James Version, New King James Version, New International Version, ect, are fine and translated correctly. But when it comes to the words, Aiwn, Sheol, Gehenna, ect. the translators refuse to translate these words correctly. The translators use their own beliefs when translating and therefore they distort the Word of God.

We've just been through all that. Over and over again. You refuse to acknowledge the word "aionios" can mean "eternal". That tells me you are knowledgable in the original languages and claim the translators either lied or were biased because of what they believed. You don't lie, they do. Somehow I have a hard time with the idea that you are here to set them straight. :-?

 

[Rick W]

most of the passages in the King James Version, New King James Version, New International Version, ect, are fine and translated correctly.

...never accept what one says an undenible truth of God.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_st.htm
Mormon article of faith #8

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

Your belief system hinges on one word. If that one word can mean eternal then it's over. Your translation of one word must be upheld at all costs otherwise that which you believe is false. You're even willing to attempt to prove there are other errors to support the idea that an error in your favor can be made. You're willing to accept other scripture to further that support. For the defense that one word is mistranslated this entire thread is devoted. "Don't trust the bible for it is flawed" is your banner, the standard by which one word remains safe as you view it.

If that one word means eternal I'm ok. If it doesn't I'm still ok and will see something wonderful I'd not expected. If it can mean eternal then you're in for quite shock. Therein lies your wager. Anonios cannot mean eternal above all costs, no matter what.
How far are you willing to go Gendou Ikari?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

We've just been through all that. Over and over again. You refuse to acknowledge the word "aionios" can mean "eternal". That tells me you are knowledgable in the original languages and claim the translators either lied or were biased because of what they believed. You don't lie, they do. Somehow I have a hard time with the idea that you are here to set them straight.

Aiwnios is the adjective of Aiwn; Aiwn meaning age. Hourly is the adjective of Hour. Hourly means "Pertaining to the Hours" not "Eternal." Aiwnios also means "Pertaining to the Ages" and not "Eterna.l"

 

[Gendou Ikari]

If that one word means eternal I'm ok. If it doesn't I'm still ok and will see something wonderful I'd not expected. If it can mean eternal then you're in for quite shock. Therein lies your wager. Anonios cannot mean eternal above all costs, no matter what.
How far are you willing to go Gendou Ikari?

I'm willing to go as far as I have to in order to find the truth. If Aiwnios means Eternal then I'm headed for Hell. But as I stated before, I would never even want to be in a Heaven with a ******* god, who would eternally damn anyone.

Fortunately Aiwnios doesn't mean Eternal. When I think about it if Aiwnios means eternal than the Scriptures contradict. For you cannot say God is Love and yet God will eternally damn most of humanity.

 

[Relic]

You doom yourself Gendou, Because you don't believe in freewill. You don't believe that it is your choices that determine where you are in the future. You contradict yourself so much it's impossible to teach you anything about how our choices makes all the difference. don't you know that your choices determine every outcome.

Your choice to accept Jesus Christ into your life.
Your choice to accept the fact that the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus is what saves you from the sins of the world.

Your choice to accept the fact that it is you who sends your soul to heaven or hell as a result of the choices you make. God gives us what we ask for.

It's your choice to sin or to not sin, It's your choice to accept that saving grace of God.

It's your choice to believe that you will not go to hell IF you have accepted Jesus Christ into your life and you are living IN the HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST JESUS.

It's your choice to listen to the HOLY SPIRIT or not.

What's your choice Gendou?

Are you going to be believe Jesus Christ that you are saved IF you Follow HIM?

Are You going to believe Jesus Christ that no man can come to the Father Except by Him, OR are you going to think you have no way to come to the Father and therefore, you are doomed to hell because of some misunderstanding over some definition of a word or two? It is your now that gets you to your future. So what are you worried about?

It's your choice Gendou.

Are you born again or not? Believe that the HOLY SPIRIT IS WORKING THROUGH YOU. And stop believing the spirit that tells you, you are doomed to hell. Are you such a person that refuses to obey the Holy Spirit and you are intent on committing to sin? Being a born again believer IN Christ Jesus, I thought you were forgiven of your past sins to be remembered no more. I thought you were a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST JESUS. Are you washed clean or not? Make up your mind and stop telling yourself that you are going to hell. :bday:


.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Your choice to accept Jesus Christ into your life.
Your choice to accept the fact that the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus is what saves you from the sins of the world.

Your choice to accept the fact that it is you who sends your soul to heaven or hell as a result of the choices you make. God gives us what we ask for.

It's your choice to sin or to not sin, It's your choice to accept that saving grace of God.

It's your choice to believe that you will not go to hell IF you have accepted Jesus Christ into your life and you are living IN the HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST JESUS.

It's your choice to listen to the HOLY SPIRIT or not.

John 6:44 (King James Version) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What's your choice Gendou?

Are you going to be believe Jesus Christ that you are saved IF you Follow HIM?

Of course I'm trying to follow Jesus Christ, why else would I be doing all of this. I want to serve the Divine.

Are You going to believe Jesus Christ that no man can come to the Father Except by Him, OR are you going to think you have no way to come to the Father and therefore, you are doomed to hell because of some misunderstanding over some definition of a word or two? It is your now that gets you to your future. So what are you worried about?

It's your choice Gendou.

Are you born again or not? Believe that the HOLY SPIRIT IS WORKING THROUGH YOU. And stop believing the spirit that tells you, you are doomed to hell. Are you such a person that refuses to obey the Holy Spirit and you are intent on committing to sin? Being a born again believer IN Christ Jesus, I thought you were forgiven of your past sins to be remembered no more. I thought you were a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST JESUS. Are you washed clean or not? Make up your mind and stop telling yourself that you are going to hell.

When have I ever said that I'm doomed to hell. I don't even believe in Hell.

 

[Relic]

...
John 6:44 (King James Version) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When God the Father draws someone to Him it doesn't in no way mean that a person has no choice in whether they are willing to accept that attraction/draw, or whether they will choose to refuse to be drawn by God.

And in keeping this scripture in line with the whole of the bible, it is That person who accepts the draw of God, which will be raised up at the last day IF they are of those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, believe Him and obey Him.
However, it is those who reject and refuse to accept the offer who are of those who are outside of the gates of heaven. Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

...
When have I ever said that I'm doomed to hell. I don't even believe in Hell.

Quote:
If that one word means eternal I'm ok. If it doesn't I'm still ok and will see something wonderful I'd not expected. If it can mean eternal then you're in for quite shock. Therein lies your wager. Anonios cannot mean eternal above all costs, no matter what.
How far are you willing to go Gendou Ikari?

I'm willing to go as far as I have to in order to find the truth. If Aiwnios means Eternal then I'm headed for Hell. But as I stated before, I would never even want to be in a Heaven with a ******* god, who would eternally damn anyone.

Fortunately Aiwnios doesn't mean Eternal. When I think about it if Aiwnios means eternal than the Scriptures contradict. For you cannot say God is Love and yet God will eternally damn most of humanity.

You admit that IF such and such is so, then you are headed for hell, to this place called hell, even though you say you don't believe in it. :o

Well, (even if a definition of a word means eternal or not) you can't say you are going to hell if you don't even believe in hell.
Hell and eternity are two different things. :roll: :D

Your wordings are not much different than those atheists who come on board and talk about God but they say they don't believe there is a God. :-? How can you talk about the facts about God if you don't even admit to there even being a God? :o That's like saying I will discuss the fact that 2+2=4 but I don't believe in addition. :

If you don't believe there is a hell then you have no say so in the matter.
Because to you..... there is not hell. So what have you to talk about? Nothing! : All you can talk about is the duration of an age. Whether it is temporary or not.

But if torture is not hell, because how can it be? you don't believe in hell... and you say it is only temporary then why would Jesus talk about that worm that dies not , in hell?






excerpts taken from an article on:


“Hellâ€Â



The doctrine of an eternal hell is a very important doctrine, but not usually a popular one. Most people, who are not Christians, cannot comprehend how a loving God could put mankind, who seem to be fairly good, into a place of torment for eternity. There are those who do not believe in a literal or eternal hell or try to make it something other than what the bible teaches. But I will show in this chapter that there is a literal hell and that it also is a place of eternal torment for all who reject Christ Jesus as Lord of their lives and choose to live sinful lifestyles.

A Real Place or just the Grave?

First lets look at the view of those who believe that hell is not a literal place of torment. Many religious groups, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventist’s, the Worldwide Church of God, and others, have had influence in the lives of people, teaching that hell is only the grave and not a place of eternal torment in fire. But they miss some very important facts. Some people simply do not want to believe in such a place or cannot comprehend why a God of love would send people there. But God doesn’t send anyone to hell by his choice. God has given every man the choice to make himself, whether to serve God and go to heaven or reject his way of salvation and go to hell. The bible says that God “is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance†2 Peter 3:9. God is a righteous judge! He does not want anyone to go to such a place of torment, and that is why God wants all mankind to come to repentance. If a person goes to hell, it will be because they chose to sin and rebel against the commands of God. But if a man deserves to be spared such judgment for any reason, God is just. But the bible only tells us one way to be spared, which is by Jesus Christ alone.

One argument against the reality of hell is with the Old Testament word for hell, which is “Sheolâ€Â. She'owl (sheh-ole'); Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:

KJV - grave, hell, pit.

The Hebrew and Greek definitions here are given by the “Strongs†or the “Vines†books of Hebrew and Greek definitions. The definition of the Hebrew word sheol is “The World of the deadâ€Â. What is a “world†other than a dwelling place of several individuals? It surely is not talking about individual graves. The three words listed after the definition of the word are words used in the King James Version Bible in place of this one Hebrew word. Although there are three English words used in this version of the bible, there is still only one definition in the Hebrew, which is “Hades†or “world of the deadâ€Â, which are the same place. It would make no difference if the King James would of used the word “casketâ€Â, the Hebrew definition is still the same, which is “World of the deadâ€Â. It used the word “grave†in the English translation, but does not mean grave, as we know a grave. The translators used the word “grave†because in the context of many of the scriptures it may appear to make more sense in the English, if they did not understand the existence of the underworld, as the grave is also a place for the dead. But the grave is for the body, while the underworld is for the soul.

Isaiah 5:14 “Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.â€Â

The English word “hell†in the Old Testament was always the Hebrew word “sheolâ€Â. But when talking about a grave, as we know a grave for a dead body, the bible uses the Hebrew word qeber, (keh'-ber); or (feminine) qibrah (kib-raw'); a sepulchre:

KJV - burying place, grave, sepulchre.

It is clear to see when examining the scriptures that when the bible uses the word “Sheol†it speaks of the underworld, and when it uses the word “qeber†it is speaking of the grave.

The Greek word for the grave is mnemeion (mnay-mi'-on); a remembrance, i.e. cenotaph (place of interment):

KJV - grave, sepulchre, tomb.

This word, like the word qeber is never used in the context of the departed soul, but only for the dead body. When speaking of the departed soul, the bible always uses the words sheol in Hebrew and Hades in the Greek. There are no scriptures given in the Old Testament that indicate that anyone who ever died during those dispensations went to Heaven. The only ones we can assume that went to Heaven during those times would be Enoch, Elijah, and possibly Moses. Enoch and Elijah never died a physical death, but were taken up alive. Moses did die, but was buried by God. The Psalmist said in Psalms 139:8 “If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.†Surely God will not be in Hell. But what he is saying is that God will always be with him, whether he would go down to sheol through death, or be taken up to heaven as Enoch and Elijah. Either way he knew he was secure in his God.

Because the Hebrew word “sheol†is used as the “grave†in the English “Old Testament†in some scriptures, those who would like to disprove the existence of hell will say that it is always referring to the grave and not a place of torment. Those who teach such do so because they do not understand that both the righteous and the unrighteous went to Sheol before the resurrection of Jesus. Sheol was the place of departed souls, both righteous and unrighteous, but had two main compartments, Hades (Hell) and Paradise. Hades would of course hold the unrighteous dead in it, and Paradise was for the righteous. In Genesis we have an account where after Jacob got word that his son was dead, even though his other sons had lied to him, and he said this:

Genesis 37:35 “And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.â€Â

Jacob was not saying that he was going to die himself from mourning so much and go into a grave. But he said here that he wanted to “go down unto himâ€Â, meaning he wanted to be with his son. Surely he was not saying his son was in Hell and that he wanted to go there also. And what good would it do for Jacob to go into the grave? Could he really be with his son if he was in a grave? Surely not consciously! He was talking of a place where he would be conscious along with his son. The definition of Sheol, as seen above, means “the world of the deadâ€Â. This is the underworld, which contains hell with paradise near by. Paradise is the part of the underworld where all the righteous dead went, until Jesus brought them all out after his death on the cross. And surely Jacob did not believe that his son went to hell. That is why the word grave was used here. Man cannot comprehend the meaning of the word hell as the underworld, but only as a place of torment. But it is proper to understand this to mean the “world of the deadâ€Â. For at that time, both the righteous and the unrighteous went to the underworld when they died. The righteous went into paradise, and the unrighteous into the place of torment, which we refer to as “hellâ€Â. The word “sheol†has been used to describe where a person went when they died. In some scriptures the translators of the bible found it to make more sense to put the word “graveâ€Â, and others they found it more proper to use the word “hellâ€Â. But in reality, it was only the body that went into the grave, but the soul went to the underworld, to Sheol. The English word “grave†is not proper in light of the proper definition of the Hebrew word “Sheolâ€Â, but should always be translated as “the world of the dead†or “the underworldâ€Â.


Paradise and Hades

Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

The heart of the earth is not a tomb, where Jesus’ body was placed after he died. The heart of anything is always referring to the center of that thing. So sheol or Hades is near the center of the earth. When Jesus was on the cross and spoke to the thief, he told him that “today you will be with me in paradiseâ€Â. Luke 23:43 “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.†But how could Jesus go to hell and take the keys of death and hell from Satan if he was going to be somewhere else (Paradise). It is because hell and paradise are located near each other, and together are known as the underworld (Sheol). This is where Jesus went when he died, which is in the heart of the earth. He did not go into a place of torment. But the keys are not literal keys anyway. Jesus’ death and resurrection are the keys. He stole that victory from the devil the day he rose again and led those in paradise free. Some would assume that he went to hell to pay for our sins. Jesus did not take the punishment for our sins in hell. He took our punishment for sin on the cross as a type of a sacrificial lamb. He bore our iniquities on the cross and not in hell. In 2 Corinthians 5:21 the Bible says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." When it says, "He was made to be sin," it means He was made to be a "sin offering." He bore the sins of all mankind on the cross. He did not bear our sins in hell, nor was he tormented there. But he did that on the cross when he shed his blood. But his purpose for going to paradise was different.

Ephesians 4:8-10 “Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)â€Â

In an early Church writing called the Epistula Apostolorum (Epistle of the Apostles) the following statement was made as a quote from Jesus:

“For to that end went I down unto the place of Lazarus, and preached unto the righteous and the prophets, that they might come out of the rest which is below and come up into that which is above; and I poured out upon them with my right hand the water (baptism) of life and forgiveness and salvation from all evil, as I have done unto you and unto them that believe on me.

His purpose for descending into the underworld was to bring out those who were in Paradise and take them to the new paradise in heaven. This happened starting the same day that he died, when he told the thief that “today†he would be with him in paradise. When he took the keys he not only led out those that where in Paradise on the third day, but also made the way of salvation for all mankind to be saved. So where did Jesus go, but to the lower parts of the earth where the underworld is. He was there for three complete days. They had been there waiting for the day when the savior would die for the sins of man and take them out of captivity. The blood of animals was never enough to save anyone. This is why the thief that repented on the cross also went to paradise and not heaven or hell. Jesus had to die first, and then he had to rise from the dead. When he had risen so did many of the old saints, which appeared to many in the city on that day. Matthew 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.†Matthew did not say that they stayed in the holy city, but only that they appeared to many, and not to all. So they obviously went to heaven afterwards to be with Jesus from that point on. This was a demonstration of the power of Jesus’ resurrection. It was to prove to an ignorant people that there is a resurrection of the dead, and that Jesus is truly the Christ. Paradise may have been a type of what the Catholic Church calls purgatory. But it was emptied at the time of Jesus resurrection and there is no longer any such place in use.

We know that paradise is not in hell. So paradise had to be next to hell. His purpose was to lead captivity captive, to bring them out of Paradise, and to take them to the new paradise with him. There is a story that Jesus told about hell that also confirms that hell and paradise where next to one another.

Luke16:19-26 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

Some would like to say that this is not a true story, but only a story like a parable. But it would make no sense at all for Jesus to tell a story about a place that does not even exist. That would make him a liar and a deceiver. Jesus never used names in a story unless it was something that really happened. In a parable he might say, “there was a manâ€Â, but never used names. Here in this passage of scripture, he not only uses names, but also mentions that hell was next to paradise. So close that the rich man was able to talk to Abraham, but there was a gulf between the two so that nobody could pass from one place to the other.

The New Testament, being written in Greek, uses a word for hell that is nearly the same definition as the Hebrew word Sheol. The Greek word is haides (hah'-dace) "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:

KJV - grave, hell.

This same word is translated as the grave, but only in one scripture in the New Testament. 1 Corinthians 15:55 “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?†Although the word grave is used here, it is not the proper translation of the Greek word. It would be proper to translate this word as hell, saying “O hell, where is thy victory†After all it is hell that would get the victory over the soul of a person and not the grave. It is obvious in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that the rich man did not lift up his eyes from the grave. For there would be no consciousness in the grave, but there is in hell. Hell was the place of departed (all) souls (Plural). It is the underworld. The grave is not for the soul, but for the body. The paradise of the underworld is now empty, and all Christians that die today go to the new paradise, which is in the heavens. This paradise is discussed in the chapter on Heaven.

Hell is Eternal

Mark 9:43-48 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched''. Five times Jesus mentioned hell as a place of fire that shall never be quenched, and where the worm does not die. Some people will teach that hell is only a temporary place of judgment, and not eternal. But Jesus said, “the fire is never quenchedâ€Â. And that people will be in this eternal place of judgment is evident by the fact that Jesus was warning against going to such an eternal place. The word for “hell†in the passage is the Greek word geena (gheh'-en-nah); of Hebrew origin; valley of Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment.

Gehenna was known as the place where people took their trash to burn it. The fires of this city dump never stopped burning. Jesus was using the word Gehenna here figuratively to help people understand somewhat of what hell is like. The fire never stops burning and the worm never dies. The fact that the word Gehenna was used figuratively does not mean that hell is not real. Because it is obvious that Jesus was talking about a place where people will be going for eternity and the horrible mistake they will make in doing so. Matthew 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternalâ€Â. Jesus used this figurative comparison to help the people of that day to understand what the real hell was like; eternal fire that is never quenched. Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor nightâ€Â.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;†Many have assumed that hell will annihilate its victims, because the bible speaks of the soul being “destroyed†in hell. But destruction here does not mean to end the existence of the soul, but to leave the soul in everlasting punishment without any hope of escape. This is made evident in this scripture when the Apostle said that they will be punished with “everlasting†destruction. This destruction will last for all eternity without end, otherwise it would not be everlasting.

Matthew 5:29-30 “And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.†Jesus in this scripture is using the word gehenna. In this passage he says that it is better for a person to pluck out their own eye if they have a problem with looking at women with lust in their heart. Because otherwise that lust could lead them into sin in which they may wind up going to hell for eternity. That is a hard statement to say someone should pluck out his or her eye or cut of a hand or something else. But if it will keep you from falling into sin and going to hell it would be well worth it.

Matthew 25:41-46 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.†Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats, the true Christians from the non-Christians. Those who are on his left, which he calls the goats, will go away into “everlasting†punishment.


All true believers now go directly to heaven at death and do not wait in paradise as the Old Testament saints did. II Corinthians 5:6-8: "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."


Is Hell Worse for Some?


The bible says that every Christian will stand before God at the Judgment seat of Christ and be judged by their works during their life in their physical bodies. Each Christian will receive their rewards according to their works. This belief is fairly well received amongst Christians. But what about those who will go to hell? Will there be harsher punishments for those who may have done more evil works than others? Or is the ignorant sinner treated the same as the reprobate murderer?

Although the bible is not completely clear on this subject, it does appear to indicate that such will be so. We need to understand that the bible always refers to hell as a place of eternal torment for all who go there, regardless how bad they may have been in this life. But it is very possible that some may receive further torments from different beasts and evil creatures that are in hell, or be confined to areas specifically made for those who receive the harsher judgment. Let’s read a few scriptures that might lead us to understand this belief of different levels in hell.

2 Peter 2:21 “For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.†Peter says that it would be better for a person who never heard the gospel on the “day of judgment†then it would be if they hear it and even know it, to then turn away from it. But is not sin, sin? And is not hell, hell? It would appear that he is saying that judgment will be harsher for some sinners than it will be for others.

Matthew 11:24 “But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.†Jesus spoke to the religious people of his day that rejected his truth and were self-righteous. He tells them that their judgment will be worse than those who lived in Sodom. But will they not all be in the same place of torment? If they all went to the same hell, then how could their punishment possibly be any harsher? There must be added torment for those who are judged with harsher judgment.

Hebrews 10:29 “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?â€Â

Luke 12:47-48 “And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.†Jesus said that punishment will be worse for those who know to do right and do not. And those who don not know, but are ignorant, although they will still be punished, theirs will not be as harsh. James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.â€Â



“The bottomless Pitâ€Â


To make mention of a bottomless pit sounds like something you might hear in some science fiction book or movie. But it is in the bible as well and was there way before Hollywood ever made any mention of it. Revelation 9:1-11 “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.â€Â


Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Revelation 20:1-3 “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.â€Â

It is out of the bottomless pit that the locusts like creatures and beast will come. And it is also where Satan will be bound and cast into for a thousand years until the end of the millennium. Then he will be released for a season to deceive the nations once again. But after this he will receive his final judgment and be cast into the Lake of Fire, which will be his eternal place along with all the lost souls of mankind and the fallen Angels.


The Lake of Fire

Christ has the keys of death and hell, which will ultimately have to give up its wicked dead for judgment. "Sheol" or "Hades" (the present hell) will then come to an end just as Paradise did, and the "Lake of Fire" will take its place.

Revelation 20:10-15 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, From whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

Being that the Lake of Fire is a different place than Hades, some assume that the Lake of fire will consume its victims, causing them to be non-existent. This is known as the doctrine of Annihilationism. This is concluded because that it is called the second death. But the first death is the death of the body, and the second death is of the soul being eternally cut off from God. Others say that the first death is the spiritual death that separated us from God from that fall of man, then the second death being the same. Either way, it is the second death we are focusing on in this chapter. Those that teach “Annihilationism†do not believe in the first hell and only believe the lake of fire to be for a moment as the sinner is being consumed and becoming non-existent, or annihilated. But if men were annihilated, then it would not be eternal punishment as the bible speaks of. The bible says that the Lake of Fire will be a place of eternal torment, “and shall be tormented day and night for ever and everâ€Â. The scripture says that Satan will be cast into the Lake of fire where the Anti-Christ and false prophet are. The first death, which is physical and spiritual, happens to a person who dies in their sin without Christ. The second death is a result of the first death, which is eternal judgment of the soul, without hope. Although their bodies died in the first death, they will be resurrected to go before God in judgment. They will go from the first death that takes them to Hades, then after the resurrection of the dead to judgment, then to the second death in the Lake of Fire. The second death does not mean annihilation. Many would like to believe that, as it is much easier to accept the thought of being annihilated then it is to burn in a Lake of Fire for eternity. But there resurrected bodies will go into the Lake of Fire to the second death. Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor nightâ€Â. The bible does not give any indication at all that the soul of man will be annihilated. But it does use the terms “forever and ever†in the same way that it speaks of eternal life being forever. The first death did not end their existence, just as the second death does not either. But it is a final judgment of the souls of mankind. People do not have a problem accepting that God will give eternal life, but do not want to accept the scriptural fact of eternal punishment. But if they will never accept the reality of an eternal hell, it will not change the fact of its existence. Hell is not a popular doctrine that most Christians love to talk about or even want to believe in. But we must accept it as truth, because it is clearly in God’s Word. The unrighteous will experience a type of death, but yet be very much alive. But the righteous will go into eternal life.


Tartarus


Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.â€Â


2 Peter 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;â€Â



Tartaroo (tar-tar-o'-o); from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:

KJV - cast down to hell.

This place where these Angels are kept in the underworld is called Tartaros or Tartarus. This is a prison in the underworld where these Angels are kept in chains until the Day of Judgment.


1 Peter 3:19-20 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.â€Â

These spirits are the fallen Angels who are now in Tartarus, a separate compartment in the underworld, who had taken the daughters of men and had children. But Jesus did not go to Tartarus to preach to them. Verse 18 was talking about him being quickened by the Spirit. So in verse 19 he says that by the Spirit he preached to these Spirits. Not after they were in this prison, but when they were on earth in the days of Noah. Noah was a preacher of righteousness, anointed by the Spirit of God to preach righteousness in those days. Verse 20 indicates that during this time that they had heard the preaching, even though they were disobedient, God was longsuffering through the 120 years while Noah built the Ark. It would do no more good to preach to them while in Tartarus than it would to go to Hades and preach to the lost that are there. Why would he preach to a lost and hopeless people who cannot receive it? Once they have died all hope of salvation was gone. Some scholars have suggested that Jesus went and preached to people in hell and that many got saved. But that neither follows God’s righteous judgment, nor does their theology have any scriptural support. But the bible is clear that hell is a real place and that God does not want anyone to go there. Jesus died to keep all men from going to such a place, but he leaves the choice up to you and I.

John 3:16-17 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be sa.â€Â


2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.â€Â

(example of defining terms:
"should" does not mean "will" I should jog.... but I don't do it all the time!
So whosoever should jog, should not have flabby thighs. )


Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.â€Â


(example of definition of term:
who so ever meaning... who ever does it, ....that is,.... makes that call upon the Lord, then.... they shall be...... saved.

In other words..... if they don't, then they... shall not be saved.


again,
But the bible is clear that hell is a real place and that God does not want anyone to go there. Jesus died to keep all men from going to such a place, but he leaves the choice up to you and I.



source: http://eternal-truth.org/hell.htm

 

[mutzrein]

When God the Father draws someone to Him it doesn't in no way mean that a person has no choice in whether they are willing to accept that attraction/draw, or whether they will choose to refuse to be drawn by God.

Sounds like we have to make a human decision in order to be born again. Doesn't scripture deny that?