Luke 20:36.
nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
They can't die; equal to the angels.
JLB
I assume you believe this passage provides support for CI being untrue. I don't. If you think about it, it supports CI. Here's why
First, The "they" this Scripture is teaching about are the saved, not the lost or for that matter even the angels specifically, though it uses them as an example.
I believe angels do not have physical bodies that die. Don't you?
I believe the resurrected bodies of
the saved will not die either don't you?
What was the Saducees belief?
That there was no afterlife at all for dead people (saved or lost). They basically thought that once a person was dead, that was it. Though they believed in the Creator via the Torah. Which is odd but lucrative for them materially speaking.
Jesus could (and did) defeat their logic. He defeats them to the point they didn't know what to say by pointing out that since God made the angels, discussed in the Torah, that do not have bodies (that can die) then made men with bodies that do die, then He can certainly and will make resurrected bodies for the saved that don't die as well.
1 Timothy 6:16
the one who alone possesses immortality, who lives in unapproachable light, whom no human being has seen nor is able to see, to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.
Who do you think Paul means by The One?
Guess what the next verse says:
1 Timothy 6:17
Command those who are rich in this present age [like the Saducees] not to be proud and not to put their hope in the uncertainty of riches, but in God, who provides us all things richly for enjoyment, [such as immortality]
My point is, what does this passage actually teach us about the lost? Answer is they will not attain these bodies that do not die since they are not raised "in Him". What does that imply toward the lost and these Saducees? Answer is there CI condition was not met.
Second, you're right. It does compare
the saved to angels in that "they", the saved, do not "die" after their resurrection. The comparison being "they" have been granted a gift of immortality at and after resurrection comparable to angels in that way. Their resurrected bodies will not die.
Since they lack the gift of never having to die twice of course. i.e. It's another one of those passages that teach us how the saved will be gifted with immortal bodies/souls at their (our) resurrection and implies we need "to attain" that gift to have an eternal afterlife.
Thus it certainly implies that people (lost or saved) are not naturally born as immortal beings. Which is also taught elsewhere in the Bible. CI's definition remember is:
Conditional Immortality = God alone has immortality, and because we are in Christ we share in the immortality that is from God. Man is not innately immortal, his life must be sustained by God.
Thirdly,
Luke 20:36
for they are not even able to die any longer, because they are like the angels and are sons of God, because they are sons of the resurrection.
Jesus was telling the Sadducees how they were wrong about there not being any
resurrection of the "dead" (people, not angels) and their logic of this women being in conflict with multiple husbands in that post resurrection age was wrong also. Resurrected people have no wives, is his answer to their question. But He also gives them a warning that not only will there not be wives in the afterlife but to attain an eternal afterlife, they better be in Him (Jesus)! They evidently didn't believe him.
Luke 20:35
but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
And sure, he uses the angels not being able to die to support his point also.
But what do you do with humans having to be "worthy to attain" this?
You do realize that angels do not "die" nor are they resurrected, right? I'm unaware of any CI or ECT person that thinks angels "die" in the sense of lose of oxygen to their brains which kills their bodies. That's what luke 20:36 means by angels do not die.
Some CI's think the fallen angels are eventually destroyed though. Some think they are never destroyed. I don't know one way or the other. I do know their bodies do not die, however.
They do not have lungs, hearts or bodies to "die". But I'm confident they, as spirit beings, can be placed in 'prison'. metaphorically using the word prison or in 'chains' of course.
Fourthly, do you think God (Jesus) here in Luke 20:36 means heavenly angels or fallen angels? I think He means the heavenly angels. I'm pretty sure God has the power, if He so chooses, to destroy fallen angels as again, no creature is immortal without Christ. Whether He will destroy fallen angels or not, I don't know for sure. I suspect not.
Here's one spirit creature 'bound' for a period of time.
Revelation 20:2
And he seized the dragon—the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan—and bound him for a thousand years,
Yet, it says nothing about the lost.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection. Over this person the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.
That passage sounds like Luke 20 to me:
Luke 20:37-38
But that the dead are raised, even Moses revealed in the passage about the bush, when he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him!”
Those not living "to him", receive wrath (2nd death)!
Luke 20, to my thinking, means saved people, like Moses, will not die a second death because they are raised "in Him". Yet, it says nothing about what will happen to the fallen angels that don't die, even a first death. They don't have bodies that die seems to be Jesus's point.
Here's three fallen angel figures being described in 'torment' forever.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day
and night forever and ever.
Yet, it says nothing about the lost's final fate. Also notice it says "day and night" using "day and night" rather figuratively since I don't think there is or will be literal daylight in the Lake of Fire. You think the LoF is located at the center of planet Earth, right? Leaking volcanoes, right? How does it receive sunlight?
This, to my way of thinking, could certainly be a passage that supports Satan and his fallen angels (demons) being tormented forever. Sure. The only argument against it being the apocalyptic language being used, I suppose, might not lend itself to plain doctrine building off of such uninterpreted passages. (Unless we find the interpretation of the language John uses.) you know, like Revelation 20:14b "
This is the second death—the lake of fire."
But even if metaphoric, it does say something about Satan's judgment, sure. So, I just don't know about the fallen angels. Nor does CI take a position on the fate of fallen angels either.
But I do know that to use fallen angels to teach about the yet to be resurrected lost persons is, well. _______!
(Self edited)
Why? Because the lost and wicked are not yet resurrected at this point in John's vision (or in Rev 14) and It's talking about Satan and demons if one takes this literally. Or it's talking about the demon influenced Earthly kingdoms coming to an end, if one studies this vision in detail.
Either way, None of these verses say one way or the other what will be the final outcome of
lost humans (the topic at hand). And frankly, when it's used to teach ECT of lost humans just demonstrates how lacking the Scriptures are that teach lost humans experience torment forever (ECT).
If the Scripture(s) taught that lost humans experience ECT, I would personally have no problem believing it. But it doesn't teach it. Not in Luke 20 or Rev 14 or Rev 20.
Do you have a Scripture that teaches that lost
people experience ECT?
