1 John 1 seems to be very clear to me.
And yet, some do not wish to understand it.
If the N.T. is allowing for something....(sin)
it means that the allowance is for a reason.
Easy.
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Conditional salvation is works salvation !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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And yet, some do not wish to understand it.
If the N.T. is allowing for something....(sin)
it means that the allowance is for a reason.
Easy.
WHO on this forum ever said that we could be saved by our works?
Do you understand the difference between being saved by works and working after our salvation?
Do you believe that faith is a work?
Please post some verses that support this view, since the N.T. makes it a point to show that faith is not a work.
You yourself posted Ephesians 2:8
and Romans 11:6
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
DavidT
Member
I don't have a problem understanding 1 John 1.
But those who want to believe Jesus died on His cross for the remission of all our future sin, or even an idea like we can no longer sin afterwards, that kind of thinking is of the devil, and I'm not afraid to say it.
The reality is that our 'flesh' causes most of our sins. Apostle Paul well covered that concept in Romans 7, and showed how our spirit desires to follow the law, but our flesh is weak and makes us stray. This strife between our flesh and our spirit is a life-long struggle, and Lord Jesus well knows we can never truly be perfect like Him, even though we are to strive to be perfect. If we could... be perfect like Him, then we would not need His Blood shed upon His cross for us.
And any idea that we can be... just like Him, is the very temptation of the devil laid upon Adam and Eve about being their own God. This is why many brethren that are duped into following those false doctrines are laden heavy in sins today, while thinking they are saved. That means danger for those, because Jesus well warned us about the five foolish virgins that He will close the door upon, and pointing to following iniquity (see also Matthew 7:20-23).
Yes.
Agreed on everything.
Question:
You say our flesh makes us sin.
Do you equate flesh and sin nature,
Or is your understanding that the sin nature is the Cause of the flesh sinning?
DavidT
Member
Our flesh causes probably 90% of our sins. Apostle Paul kind of showed this in Romans, because of how our fleshy desires war against our spirit.
Rom 6:7
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV
Rom 6:18-19
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
KJV
Paul says a lot more in between those verses, comparing our flesh with sin vs. servants of righteousness. But the idea of verse 7 is that when the flesh is dead, we are freed from sin, which is showing where the majority of our sins originate. And therefore most Bible versions show this per this 'flesh' view, instead of the later modern versions that use a "sin nature" philosophy. It is simply that our fallen nature inherited from Adam involves our flesh, because it is not our flesh body that is saved in Christ's Salvation, it is our spirit.
1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV
Great verse, 1 cor 5:5
Thanks for that.
I did attend a denomination for about 10 years that taught the sin nature. The sin nature causes the flesh to sin. I had a discussion with a poster here, pages worth, a few years ago.
Expressed the way you just did made me realize that it doesn't matter all that much what the understanding is,,,the outcome remains the same.
I believe the misunderstanding might be due to the fact that Jesus died for ALL the sins of the world. Even sins in the future.
But we still have to be sorry for them and ask forgiveness. Why would God, who is just, forgive a sin for which there is no remorse?
If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive it.
IF we Confess our sin...
1 John 1
Edward
2024 Supporter
Sure we equate flesh and sin nature. It's right in Romans 7
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.../
The whole chapter really.
DavidT
Member
Well, consider about the "brute beast" nature. If some want to point to a 'sin nature' that causes our flesh to sin, then it's definitely that "brute beast" nature that causes the "workers of iniquity" to do what they are ordained to do per Jude 1.
But that "brute beast" nature certainly does not... apply to God's people, not even to those who haven't come to Christ yet but still recognize a Creator.
Apostles Paul and Peter both covered the idea of our flesh lusts, and walking by our flesh instead of The Spirit, and because of that I don't reason to add a separate cause to our flesh lusts as the reason for sin.
1 John 2:16-17
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
KJV
There is a line of logic, which says because we cannot walk perfectly, how can the consequences of sinful behaviour be met other than being ignored once one comes to faith.
I am drawn by two pictures. The first is a sinner in prison who comes to faith, and cleans up his life. His desire is to follow Jesus and work through his issues. I talked with such a man, who recognised the night and day difference between those wrapped up is selfishness and desire and those who wish to love and care for those around them.
The second picture has come out about Hugh Heffner. You could just about say he was about glamour and the James Bond image of people dabbling in relationships while staying reasonable people. One of his wives has recently revealed he wanted her to have sexual relations with other people, while being filmed and was even caught inappropriately behaving with a dog. Worse still was his dabbling in snuff and blood videos. You cannot have a bigger example of the pit of hell this guy fell into and became totally corrupted by, where his internal desires led him into death and destruction.
Love is a real eternal thing, and our destination is sowing to love or the flesh. The signposts along the way are just pointers to where things will end up, not the end themselves. All I can believe is those who ignore the walk have never met Jesus or understood his words. Salvation is partly about looking after ourselves and inheriting the blessing of following love and Gods ways, and sinners inherit the destruction of broken lives and shattered relationships. How can one miss this in the sermon on the mount unless one is spiritually dead.
God bless you
DavidT
Member
I like to keep things simple, like God's Word does.
Apostle Paul said in Romans that he had not known sin but by the law. And in 1 Timothy 1, Paul said the law is good, if a man use it lawfully.
Now I definitely am not promoting salvation by the law. God's Salvation through His Son is by His Grace only, a free gift for those of Faith. But still, if the Christian wants to know what our Heavenly Father and His Son likes and dislikes, then a study of His laws in The Old Testament are still important, even though some of those laws were fulfilled by Lord Jesus on His cross. Yet Jesus did not do away with all the law, otherwise Apostle Paul would not have been teaching about it in The New Testament, particularly like that 1 Timothy 1 Scripture.
Furthermore, God's written Word reveals that The Holy Spirit is given us and by that God writes His laws into our hearts (and minds, per Hebrews 8:10). Yet that only works IF... we walk by The Spirit, and not by our flesh (Galatians 5). This is why we are admonished to keep our relationship with The Father and The Son like in a family, because via The Holy Spirit is how He warns our spirit against something evil our flesh is wanting us to do.
Ed,
We equate it, but remember that poster that used an avatar that was Javier Bardem? (I miss him BTW - can't remember his name).
He would say it was our flesh that sinned,,,
and I'd say that it was the sin nature that MADE the flesh sin.
We carried on for a couple of pages and then agreed to disagree and we even would make fun of it at times...
But yes, it's all the same I guess...however one wants to understand it.
I like how DavidT explained it.
Sometimes just a little twist on words make you see something,
which is why I like to read posts.
I wouldn't say the sin nature is a brute beast.
We are born with this sinful nature, but not everyone that is born is a brute beast !
(some do use it more than others...)
It's just what makes us TEND toward sinning when, after salvation and loving God, we TEND not to sin because we are helped by this love - we also can call it being helped the the Holy Spirit (which is one of His jobs).
It certainly does not apply to God's people...
We are the sons of God...
1 John 3:1a
1See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are.
How I was taught this is that after we become born again, this sin nature/flesh is still present but it is suppressed by our desire to do well...as always it's a heart condition (Jeremiah/Ezekiel).
Agreed. We just have a different way of speaking...
The following speak of this sin nature...which you call the flesh...
Romans 7:20
20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Romans 8:7-8
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 4:22
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
DavidT
Member
I was referring to the Jude 1 and 2 Peter 2 Scripture with their idea of the "brute beast" nature. It's application is not for those called, not even before they come to Christ:
This may shock some, nevertheless, it is written:
Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV
By the time we get to Jude 10, he is still pointing specifically to those as "brute beasts". So what's the difference between those, and us, as sinners?
Notice the above says those are "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation", to work against The Father and His Son. That is about the children of darkness, the "workers of iniquity", the "mystery of iniquity", the "many antichrists". It's like those were predestined to be Satan's elect here on earth.
I know, the job of Christ's Church is to preach The Gospel Salvation to all peoples. It doesn't mean these cannot come to Christ and be saved if they will turn from... what? From their "brute beast" nature they were 'ordained' from God to have.
Most brethren are not aware that God literally 'ordained' this group of workers to work the negative side of His Plan. We instead are taught that we all are sinners in the same boat, but actually per this Jude Scripture this group is not, which is why their "brute beast" nature is different than what some call a "sin nature". God has put in them that "brute beast" nature in order for them to fulfill the negative working. So they do so by their particular 'nature' He gave them, which is what that idea of His having ordained them means. This is why we are never to compare that "brute beast" idea to any of God's people.
This is why Peter also says this about that specific group:
2 Peter 2:12-14
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
KJV
Yes, brute beast (not used in any of the bibles I checked) is referring to false teachers...NOT to those that are still not saved...those before salvation are not referred to this way in any verse I could think of. (as I had mentioned).
As to verse 4 WHO WERE BEFORE OF OLD ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION, I don't believe we could be sure of what that means. Is it referring to the O.T.? Or is it referring to the teachings of the N.T. salvation by grace? Jude was written about 35 years after Jesus ascended, he might have been referring to the teachings of Paul. In fact, it mentions how they turn grace into lasciviousness.
What's the difference between us and the "brute beasts"?
We are plain and simple sinners, born lost. Everyone sins.
Instead those spoken of in Jude and Peter are purposefully misleading Christians by teaching false doctrine.
Probably refers to gnosticism which taught that it is the body that sins, but the spirit is saved.
Sins were NOT frowned upon by gnostics.
I'm not going to agree to the above.
We don't know that the evil were/was predestined.
This is saying that God predestined evil and it's very reformed in theology and I don't agree with the reformed doctrines.
I don't believe either satan or God have "elect" the way it sounds that you are using the word.
Elect just means chosen....
and God loves us enough to let us know HOW we can be chosen by Him.
He does not leave us blind to His conditions for salvation.
Why do you put the word ORDAIINED in quotation marks?
We must turn from our flesh/sin nature in order to be saved.
This is what repentance is...turning away from sin and satan.
Again, the "brute beasts" spoken of in Jude and Peter are not the normal persons that turn to God for salvation.
You seem to be saying something different above.
But, again, I don't know that God had a "negative plan". I just know that God had a plan that had been a mystery until the time of Jesus - the plan was that ALL could be saved and that gentiles are included as per some O.T. covenants. (Abrahamic, Davidic).
Yes, Peter is parallel in idea to Jude.
Agreed, of course, on what the above states since it's all scripture.
This is a good subject for discussion.
Rightly dividing which law is being referred to is important.
We are under the law of Christ as His laws are written on our heart and mind.
We are not under the law of Moses, as it was abolished on the cross.
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Ephesians 2:14-16
The law of Moses was the dividing wall separating Jew and Gentile.
It’s important to understand the law of Moses was added, temporarily to the Abrahamic Covenant, until the Messiah (Seed) should come.
JLB
brute beast - I have changed my life focus more onto the emotional centre that moulds each day. To cope we make ourselves innocent and justified to face whatever comes. It is optimistic and self affirming.
The problem is when we do something harmful and which if we could see without involvement, is simply wrong, we change its cause and consequence to words like, they deserved that, they hurt me so I can .... to them.
The core problem is this continual I am alright, I have won, I am worthy.
So that fantastic thing comes before our eyes. We must have it. I have watched people justify leaving their wives and going off with someone else, and inventing a whole stream of ideas that makes it alright. It is the emotional flow that is driving it all, the attraction that dominates and everything else must be bent out of shape.
Jesus comes and declares I am your emotional source of life, the leveller, the one who bring clarity of sight. The emotional high fades away, the attraction triggers go into the background, and ones real commitments and loves show through.
It is not surprising those who take law fail, because law just is a cold look at failure and danger, without cause and affect. Equally those who take being emotionally high is everything and not keeping in check conflicting desires by using the boundaries the law lays out, is literally death, because the emotions rule without restraint.
The group of free gracers we talked to for a long period could not face the feeling love brings because of the sever hurt and pain they felt on disappointment. I know this story line, because I have lived it as well, but in Christ I also know His eternal love and grace that overcomes.
I am now convinced until believers come to see their emotional language and how Jesus encourages and guides them, they will always get defeated and entangled in sin and its glittering appeals. God bless you
No need to confess a sin you haven’t commited.
Notice “if we confess our sin”… meaning a sin that we have committed.
JLB
The above is the reason we seek first the Kingdom.
Nothing SHOULD be more important.
Do you know why Jesus said to also turn the other cheek if someone slaps you?
It wasn't because He wanted a person to get beat up by someone.
It was to show that the slap meant nothing.
It was a statement that God was more important to the slapped person and the shame of being slapped meant very little. Being slapped was very insulting in Jesus' time. Turning the other cheek also meant the equivalent of not caring what the other person wanted or meant to show by the slap.
The point also is that we're not supposed to do anything that may be harmful.
This could always happen by mistake I guess - I'm sure any situation could arise.
But being harmful is not supposed to be a pattern in our behavior. If anything, we should quiet
a situation, not make it worse.
Jesus didn't mean for us to remain neutral...
It's not enough to stop doing evil.
We should go the other way, beyond neutral,
and do good.
I keep saying SHOULD because no one is perfect...but we are to do our best.