Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[PeterJens]

The above is the reason we seek first the Kingdom.
Nothing SHOULD be more important.

Do you know why Jesus said to also turn the other cheek if someone slaps you?
It wasn't because He wanted a person to get beat up by someone.

It was to show that the slap meant nothing.
It was a statement that God was more important to the slapped person and the shame of being slapped meant very little. Being slapped was very insulting in Jesus' time. Turning the other cheek also meant the equivalent of not caring what the other person wanted or meant to show by the slap.

The point also is that we're not supposed to do anything that may be harmful.
This could always happen by mistake I guess - I'm sure any situation could arise.
But being harmful is not supposed to be a pattern in our behavior. If anything, we should quiet
a situation, not make it worse.

Jesus didn't mean for us to remain neutral...
It's not enough to stop doing evil.
We should go the other way, beyond neutral,
and do good.

I keep saying SHOULD because no one is perfect...but we are to do our best.

Turning the other cheek is something I have thought about my whole life.
I first thought it was not responding to provocation, which is why when in shared house I did not respond to scarcastic comments or things that were said to be provocative. The problem was this made me a victim rather than a witness.

In later life I learnt turning the other cheek is about not showing the desire to beat another, to dominate is not important, just meeting the needs of another. Being hit on the cheek is nothing in one sense, in another it is a challenge to start a fight. Jesus is saying the emotional love He has through us to others is worth so much more than the one to one power play. So my turning the other cheek without showing love and appreciation of others would be empty. Anyone can turn the other cheek, but to love another in reality and not to dominate or desire to beat another, many cannot understand, because their whole value is based on status and who they can hurt.

I have come across many people who need to be understood and listened to. There lives have often been trying to prove their worth to others and being rejected. Just giving people time and space, a listening ear, a consistent approach and a real desire to be there for them, changes people. I have equally experienced opening up to help another can also be an opportunity to be dumped on, because how dare one believe you could help them. This has made me wary of going into such situations but just leaving a door open.

God bless you

 

[Edward]

It seems to me, that anyone who says that everything from God is a total gift and we'll never have to lift a finger to do anything (because that would be works based salvation, somehow)...is being very short sighted.

I ran across this little gem today.

Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.../

What exactly does this verse mean? It doesn't take a Rabbi to see that the passage speaks to US as believers. So if a no works based salvation, then just exactly what are we supposed to overcome?
And by implication, will any be saved that are not overcomers?

This part of learning of our salvation seems pretty basic to me. When one becomes a believer and becomes Born Again, then that is not the end of it, it is the beginning, where one must get up off of his spiritual behind and do anything that the Lord tells you to do. Did you not give your life to Him? So it belongs to Him. And He has already said, go out and do good works in my name. This is where He will take you, since your life is His. You work for Him now.

I'm guessing that to do no works is outright disobedience. Rev 2:7 doesn't say that the disobedient will get to eat from the tree of life. So wherein is the confusion?

Am I right? I know I'm right.

 

[Episcopius]

I smell Calvinism!

 

[Episcopius]

That was not at you, Edward.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It seems to me, that anyone who says that everything from God is a total gift and we'll never have to lift a finger to do anything (because that would be works based salvation, somehow)...is being very short sighted.

Many gifts are given from God but the gift of salvation is stand alone & completely different from all others in terms of Christain service.
An example of a gift from God that requires work/service would be the Apostle Paul's " thorn in the flesh " gifted to him by God, and which was a heavy burden for him to bear and labor with .
Paul's Thorn in the flesh tasking was in no way connected or contingent to his salvation however.
Still a gift from God that required Paul's self-help laboring over to extract the reward from, but in no way comparable to the gift of Christ's blood shed for his salvation and ours.
It is from the free gift of salvation that all the subsequent Christain labor flows .
Sin> Salvation> Service, the triad of Christian experience .
A natural sequence, an inevitable process.

"Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? " ( Acts 9:6 )

 

[Edward]

Many gifts are given from God but the gift of salvation is stand alone & completely different from all others in terms of Christain service.
An example of a gift from God that requires work/service would be the Apostle Paul's " thorn in the flesh " gifted to him by God, and which was a heavy burden for him to bear and labor with .
Paul's Thorn in the flesh tasking was in no way connected or contingent to his salvation however.
Still a gift from God that required Paul's self-help laboring over to extract the reward from, but in no way comparable to the gift of Christ's blood shed for his salvation and ours.
It is from the free gift of salvation that all the subsequent Christain labor flows .
Sin> Salvation> Service, the triad of Christian experience .
A natural sequence, an inevitable process.

"Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? " ( Acts 9:6 )

It's an easy concept to grasp. God doesn't exist to serve us. Man exists to serve God.

 

[JLB]

I smell Calvinism!

Hyper grace.

 

[DavidT]

Yes, brute beast (not used in any of the bibles I checked) is referring to false teachers...NOT to those that are still not saved...those before salvation are not referred to this way in any verse I could think of. (as I had mentioned).

You're not serious, right?

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
KJV

I quoted the above King James Version Bible to you in my previous post. How is it you failed to read it?

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these men, as irrational beasts, naturally tending to the snare and to destruction, blaspheming those things which they know not, shall perish in their corruption,
Douay-Rheims

2 Peter 2:12
12 and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed — in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil — in their destruction shall be destroyed,
YLT

2 Peter 2:12-13
12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
ESV

2 Peter 2:12-13
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
NKJV

2 Peter 2:12-13
12 These people are nothing but brute beasts, born in the wild, predators on the prowl. In the very act of bringing down others with their ignorant blasphemies, they themselves will be brought down, losers in the end.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

2 Peter 2:12
But these men, like beasts without reason, whose natural use is to be taken and put to death, crying out against things of which they have no knowledge, will undergo that same destruction which they are designing for others;
BBE

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption:
Webster

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these men, like brute beasts, created (with their natural instincts) only to be captured or destroyed, are abusive in matters of which they are ignorant, and in their corruption will perish,
Weymouth

You might want to expand your Bible reference collection.

And yes, Apostle Peter described those "BRUTE BEASTS" like animals created to be 'destroyed', which certainly DOES apply to this specific group of UNSAVED.

 

[DavidT]

As to verse 4 WHO WERE BEFORE OF OLD ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION, I don't believe we could be sure of what that means. Is it referring to the O.T.? Or is it referring to the teachings of the N.T. salvation by grace? Jude was written about 35 years after Jesus ascended, he might have been referring to the teachings of Paul. In fact, it mentions how they turn grace into lasciviousness.

I'm sorry dear, but just because you don't yet understand that, doesn't mean others don't. Have you missed what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 9 about Jacob and Esau, and God having hardened Pharaoh's heart against the children of Israel?

 

[DavidT]

This is a good subject for discussion.

Rightly dividing which law is being referred to is important.

We are under the law of Christ as His laws are written on our heart and mind.

We are not under the law of Moses, as it was abolished on the cross.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Ephesians 2:14-16

The law of Moses was the dividing wall separating Jew and Gentile.

It’s important to understand the law of Moses was added, temporarily to the Abrahamic Covenant, until the Messiah (Seed) should come.


JLB

I distinguish between God's laws 'given through Moses', which Jesus did NOT nail to His cross, which Apostle Paul was covering in 1 Timothy 1, and in Galatians 5, and in 1 Corinthians 6.

So to say all the laws God gave through Moses are done away with is actually against... what Apostle Paul taught in those New Testament Chapters I listed above.

Why then do so many of today's Churches wrongly believe what you said about God's law given through Moses? Maybe because they like to preach their 'own word', and not stay with God's written Word?? Don't want to make the congregation upset, right? They may stop coming or putting money in the plate.

 

[jaybo]

I distinguish between God's laws 'given through Moses', which Jesus did NOT nail to His cross, which Apostle Paul was covering in 1 Timothy 1, and in Galatians 5, and in 1 Corinthians 6.

So to say all the laws God gave through Moses are done away with is actually against... what Apostle Paul taught in those New Testament Chapters I listed above.

Why then do so many of today's Churches wrongly believe what you said about God's law given through Moses? Maybe because they like to preach their 'own word', and not stay with God's written Word?? Don't want to make the congregation upset, right? They may stop coming or putting money in the plate.

Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Nothing could be clearer. You can't be in both covenants at once.

Galatians 2:19-21, "For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside God’s grace, because if righteousness could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 3:1-3, "You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish[h] by human effort?"

So to say all the laws God gave through Moses are done away with is actually in agreement with what Apostle Paul taught in the New Testament.

 

[DavidT]

Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Nothing could be clearer. You can't be in both covenants at once.

We're no longer in the old covenant. Not all of God's laws were about the old covenant, and you'd know that if you bothered to attend court cases of murderers sentenced to the death penalty, or thieves sentenced to prison, etc., in today's time. Did you even know that perjury from Gods law is still punishable by the courts today in western society? (Perjury means willingly telling a lie while under oath.)

Notice also, that Romans 7:4 verse you quoted, it says we... die to the law being in Christ, not that the law... died. If you had bothered to read what Apostle Paul said in 1 Timothy 1 and Galatians 5, you would have known this.

Galatians 2:19-21, "For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside God’s grace, because if righteousness could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 3:1-3, "You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish[h] by human effort?"

So to say all the laws God gave through Moses are done away with is actually in agreement with what Apostle Paul taught in the New Testament.

Try reading a little further... like Galatians 5 where Apostle Paul taught that only IF... we walk by The Spirit are we dead to the law. Walk by the flesh instead, and you place yourself back... under the law, and it's because laws Paul mentioned in The New Testament Chapters I listed are still... in effect today under Christ Jesus!

1 Tim 1:8-11

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV

The law was made for....

1. "for the ungodly and for sinners" -- how ya gonna' know what's against the law?
2. "for unholy and profane" -- pedophiles, rapists, wickedness, etc.
3. "for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers"- murder is still punishable by death today.
4. "for manslayers" - unintentional killings, drive drunk and kill someone while driving and see what happens today.
5. "whoremongers" - prostitution, still illegal in most states.
6. "for them that defile themselves with mankind" - sexual sodomy, still illegal in some states.
7. "for menstealers" - kidnapping.
8. "for perjured persons" - willfully tell lies while under oath, still a crime in today's courts.


ALL... those things Apostle Paul taught are part of CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE. He even linked The Gospel with that in that 11th verse!

Maybe you ought to go back to the misguided preacher you've been listening to, and give him a little lesson on what Apostle Paul said there (and there's more in 1 Corinthians 6).

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV

 

[JLB]

I distinguish between God's laws 'given through Moses', which Jesus did NOT nail to His cross, which Apostle Paul was covering in 1 Timothy 1, and in Galatians 5, and in 1 Corinthians 6.

So to say all the laws God gave through Moses are done away with is actually against... what Apostle Paul taught in those New Testament Chapters I listed above.

Why then do so many of today's Churches wrongly believe what you said about God's law given through Moses? Maybe because they like to preach their 'own word', and not stay with God's written Word?? Don't want to make the congregation upset, right? They may stop coming or putting money in the plate.

The law of Moses was nailed to the cross, being obsolete it was taken out of the way.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14

Remember, the law was added, temporarily until the Seed, the Messiah should come.

What was it added to?




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You're not serious, right?

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
KJV

I quoted the above King James Version Bible to you in my previous post. How is it you failed to read it?

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these men, as irrational beasts, naturally tending to the snare and to destruction, blaspheming those things which they know not, shall perish in their corruption,
Douay-Rheims

2 Peter 2:12
12 and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed — in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil — in their destruction shall be destroyed,
YLT

2 Peter 2:12-13
12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
ESV

2 Peter 2:12-13
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
NKJV

2 Peter 2:12-13
12 These people are nothing but brute beasts, born in the wild, predators on the prowl. In the very act of bringing down others with their ignorant blasphemies, they themselves will be brought down, losers in the end.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

2 Peter 2:12
But these men, like beasts without reason, whose natural use is to be taken and put to death, crying out against things of which they have no knowledge, will undergo that same destruction which they are designing for others;
BBE

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption:
Webster

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these men, like brute beasts, created (with their natural instincts) only to be captured or destroyed, are abusive in matters of which they are ignorant, and in their corruption will perish,
Weymouth

You might want to expand your Bible reference collection.

And yes, Apostle Peter described those "BRUTE BEASTS" like animals created to be 'destroyed', which certainly DOES apply to this specific group of UNSAVED.

WHICH group of the unsaved?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry dear, but just because you don't yet understand that, doesn't mean others don't. Have you missed what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 9 about Jacob and Esau, and God having hardened Pharaoh's heart against the children of Israel?

Please don't call me dear.
I meant that even THEOLOGIANS are not sure of what it means. WE here on these forums don't understand a lot. If that insults you, I'm sorry.
Maybe you understand everything.

You want to discuss Jacob a d esau and Pharoah's heart?

Begin.

 

[DavidT]

The law of Moses was nailed to the cross, being obsolete it was taken out of the way.

Many of God's laws are still... in place today among Christian society. One of them is the law against murder. Apostle Paul listed some of them as part of his entrust with The Gospel per 1 Timothy 1. Thus there is no debating this; either one believes Apostle Paul in those New Testament Scriptures, or they don't and thus default to their 'own' false fancies against The Word of God. (I'm not Jewish either, by the way, I am a Protestant Christian, non-denominational.)

I suggest you study what Apostle Paul taught in the 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5 Chapters about this matter. And it's actually very simple. Per Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2, Hebrews 9, Lord Jesus nailed the 'handwriting of ordinances' in God's law to His cross, not all of His laws and commandments.

 

[GodsGrace]

Many of God's laws are still... in place today among Christian society. One of them is the law against murder. Apostle Paul listed some of them as part of his entrust with The Gospel per 1 Timothy 1. Thus there is no debating this; either one believes Apostle Paul in those New Testament Scriptures, or they don't and thus default to their 'own' false fancies against The Word of God. (I'm not Jewish either, by the way, I am a Protestant Christian, non-denominational.)

I suggest you study what Apostle Paul taught in the 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5 Chapters about this matter. And it's actually very simple. Per Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2, Hebrews 9, Lord Jesus nailed the 'handwriting of ordinances' in God's law to His cross, not all of His laws and commandments.

Not all His laws,,,right.

You may be studying, maybe even for a doctorate,,,you're very excited about the bible a d God and all you're learning.

This is wonderful. Please don't allow it to to make you look down upon your Christian brothers. We here have done much studying.
And we welcome your knowledge.

 

[DavidT]

WHICH group of the unsaved?

The specific group that Jude said were 'ordained' to that condemnation of being against Christ, and that Peter said were made to be taken and destroyed. All you need do is simply 'read' the Scripture and heed what it says.

2 Thess 2:7
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
KJV

Apparently, you are not familiar with the "mystery of iniquity", which is what this is about. It is a "strong meat" doctrine, not milk. And you're not likely to hear it taught in most Churches.

 

[DavidT]

Please don't call me dear.
I meant that even THEOLOGIANS are not sure of what it means. WE here on these forums don't understand a lot. If that insults you, I'm sorry.
Maybe you understand everything.

You want to discuss Jacob a d esau and Pharoah's heart?

Begin.

That endearment was not meant to offend. Where I come from we often use terms of endearment even for strangers, thus it's a habit.

I don't claim to understand everything, but studying both Old Testament Books and New Testament Books does mean being exposed to a lot, and the "workers of iniquity" idea is one of those in the Old Testament Books, especially in the Psalms. So when getting to the New Testament Books and seeing "mystery of iniquity" and "many antichrists", it doesn't take a whole lot to wonder what's up.

The following by Apostle Paul was what I was pointing to...

Rom 9:11-18
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, 'Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.'"

Paul was quoting the above from Malachi 1 where God said that part in bold.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For He saith to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God That sheweth mercy.

How is it that God said He hated Esau, but loved Jacob, even before either child was born and not having chance to do good or evil?

Most will try to explain that by saying God knows what we will do before we do it, and I can understand that. But that does not really explain why He has mercy on some, while others He hardens for His Purpose. Nevertheless, He is Righteous to choose to do both, for He is GOD and we are but clay.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
KJV

By the above verse, Paul quotes from Exodus 9:16 of God saying why He hardened Pharaoh's heart to refuse to let the children of Israel go. It was to show GOD's power and authority over man. God did a similar working with Nebuchadnezzar too, causing Neb to turn like a wild man living with beasts of the field, which is actually a known rare type of mental disorder (boanthropy). When Nebuchadnezzar came out it, he worshipped God and recognized His Authority over man, and His mercy.

What this points to with the "mystery iniquity" is that He also has 'ordained' a certain people on this earth to work the negative side of His Plan, similar to like He did with hardening Pharaoh's heart, but instead with a 'brute beast' type nature in them so they have a tendency to follow the devil. And that's what the "tares" in Christ's parable of the tares of the field is about (Matthew 13).

Matt 13:37-43
37 He answered and said unto them, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

We were kind of supposed to realize this dividing line between the children of light vs. the children of darkness early on per Genesis 3:15, when it mentioned this...

Gen 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
KJV

That doesn't mean Jesus literally sowed seed, nor that the serpent literally sowed seed. It is simply just how God set things into operation for this present world, Christ has His elect, and the devil has his elect that follow and worship him. Thus worship of the devil shouldn't be a mystery, since it began in the most ancient of times, like with Sargon I in ancient Sumer-Babylon around 3,800 B.C., and that per the Assyrian cuneiform tablets discovered there.

 

[DavidT]

Not all His laws,,,right.

You may be studying, maybe even for a doctorate,,,you're very excited about the bible a d God and all you're learning.

This is wonderful. Please don't allow it to to make you look down upon your Christian brothers. We here have done much studying.
And we welcome your knowledge.

I have no intention of looking down upon the brethren. What happens is angst against doctrines of men that we get fed from religious organizations, and that particularly when the Scripture in question is common sense and just not that difficult to understand.