Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[GodsGrace]

This statement is a non sequitur. obeying a command does not equate to saving one's self. The idea of works salvation is misnomer. Obedience does not negate grace. Those who argue the Reformed position use "works salvation" as a red herring to negate the necessity of obedience.

Speak of a strawman!
Obeying is works salvation.
Having faith is a work.
If we obey, we are trying to save ourselves.
etc.
What nonsense....
If the other poster wanted to have a serious discussion, he would address what we, on this side, believe, NOT what we do not even believe.

Thus spending half the time having to discuss the correct beliefs we hold, and never getting to the meat of the discussion. Nice ploy.

 

[Butch5]

Speak of a strawman!
Obeying is works salvation.
Having faith is a work.
If we obey, we are trying to save ourselves.
etc.
What nonsense....
If the other poster wanted to have a serious discussion, he would address what we, on this side, believe, NOT what we do not even believe.

Thus spending half the time having to discuss the correct beliefs we hold, and never getting to the meat of the discussion. Nice ploy.

That's actually how those who hold Reformed theology argue. It's always a distraction from the real issue.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you really need a law to command you not to kill? Not to steal? Not to worship idols? Not to commit adultery? Not give false testimony against your neighbor? Not to desire your neighbor’s house, your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor?

If you struggle with these desires then you need Jesus Christ. If you already have Jesus as your Savior you don't need laws to tell you not to do these things; you are guided by the Holy Spirit.

Hi jaybo,
Yes, you do need a command.
You know murder is wrong because you were taught this.
If you lived in a society where a person killed another person because they didn't like them...it would be accepted.
We take so much for granted.
If God did not teach us, how would we ever have known certain acts were wrong?

God gave us the moral law from the beginning.
God told Adam and Eve they had to obey Him.
He told Cain he was wrong in killing Abel.
God taught the Israelites how to get along with each other.
He even placed in us a conscience. But that conscience has to be taught somehow.

I think we need both our born again spirit and knowledge of sins in order to be disciples.
Romans 14:23 teaches that something could even be a sin for one person but not for another.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's actually how those who hold Reformed theology argue. It's always a distraction from the real issue.

Agreed.

 

[Degas]

Jesus himself says Grace comes from doing God's will and he also says many Christians will think they are saved yet they won't be:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ " (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Randy]

Jesus himself says Grace comes from doing God's will and he also says many Christians will think they are saved yet they won't be:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ " (Matthew 7:21-23)

Did the Father send Jesus because of mans obedience or because of His love?

Grace not of ourselves.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God sought us first when we were in our sins. (grace)

We love because he first loved us.

 

[Edward]

Jesus himself says Grace comes from doing God's will and he also says many Christians will think they are saved yet they won't be:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ " (Matthew 7:21-23)

So I'm not seeing Jesus say grace comes from doing God's will. He says only those who do His Father's will, will enter into Heaven.

Grace is something given which is not deserved. Like when Jesus died on the cross for us while we were still sinners. That is a grace. If you believe that and accept it, then you have been given the power to become sons of God (John 1:12) How do you do that? By doing the will of the Father!

So after we get saved, we can't sit down and become an unprofitable servant. We have been given a commission. Preach the Gospel, heal the sick, cast out devils, raise the dead. Go out into the world, and...show them that the Lord Almighty God lives in you and through you.

Isaiah 60:1
Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.../

So grace is free and not deserved, so you got the job. But if you act dead and never do anything for the company...you're fired! Jesus never said grace came at a cost. He came first, with His gift of grace...the job offer.

Will you not even help to bring one more soul into the Kingdom of Heaven? So you don't show up alone? You can say, look Lord, who I brought with me!

 

[Degas]

So I'm not seeing Jesus say grace comes from doing God's will. He says only those who do His Father's will, will enter into Heaven. [...] So after we get saved...

Fine! Jesus merely says many Christians won't go to Heaven! What do you call grace / being saved, then, if it's not the promise to go to Heaven? (and can you please give Bible verses as reference?)

 

[Edward]

Jesus himself says Grace comes from doing God's will and he also says many Christians will think they are saved yet they won't be:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ " (Matthew 7:21-23)

Fine! Jesus merely says many Christians won't go to Heaven! What do you call grace / being saved, then, if it's not the promise to go to Heaven? (and can you please give Bible verses as reference?)

I responded to the scripture that you posted in Matthew 7. He doesn't talk about grace in that passage and you said He did.

??

Why, did you need some scriptures about grace?

 

[Edward]

Scriptures about Grace.

Titus 2:11-12
Hebrews 4:16
Ephesians 2:4-5
1 Peter 5:10
2 Timothy 1:9
Romans 3:23-24
Romans 6:15
Philemon 1:25
2 Chronicles 30:9
2 Corinthians 12:9
Romans 515

 

[Degas]

Thank you for posting those verses numbers.

He doesn't talk about grace in that passage and you said He did.

Jesus talks about entering the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 7:21-23. In my understanding, it is the same as grace / being saved and you said it isn't. I therefore asked:

What do you call grace / being saved, then, if it's not the promise to go to Heaven?

And you didn't answer that question. The verses you posted don't either so I have no idea what you mean by being saved.

 

[Edward]

What do you call grace / being saved, then, if it's not the promise to go to Heaven? (and can you please give Bible verses as reference?)

And you didn't answer that question. The verses you posted don't either so I have no idea what you mean by being saved.

Ok let's look at Hebrews 4:16
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.../

Now let's go to the Blue letter Bible which is a concordance and you read it, and tell me where it speaks salvation? We're talking about the word, Grace.

G5485 - charis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G5485 - χάρις cháris, khar'-ece; from ; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):—acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(-...

www.blueletterbible.org

To understand the difference between grace and salvation, which are two different things, think about cause and effect. Grace is the cause and is undeserved. It's effect upon ones heart will have an effect which leads to salvation.
You really should start using a Concordance like Blue Letter Blble.

 

[PeterJens]

Whenever we make anything a must do prior to God saving us, and God saves us because of that we must do ir have done, we automatically forfeit salvation by Grace and come under the opposing view of salvation by works.
If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For me language of life confuses meaning. If you look at life as a series of tasks, which are done, irrespective of context or relation, then the idea of a conditional action seems to devalue that action. But if language is an emotional expression of life, and God himself is an emotional being, emotions being the response and being of an individual, then words like salvation, the action of saving take on a different meaning.

Sinful man has a problem of relationship or emotional openness and reaching out to others. Just look at sinful people. They are not happy, they are totally compromised and place their selfish desires above others for their own gratification no matter the cost. So getting rich matters more than the suffering entailed in the process, or committing adultery matters less than the hurt done to other parties. Jesus said the wages of sin is death. We often think of this as Gods judgement, but Jesus is referring to the results of sinful behaviour is the destruction of everything we hold dear. Compromise does not work, you have to work things through.

So in terms of being saved, it is all about love transforming and giving life to everything we do, say, feel and are. We are not saved with a condition of having a relationship with God, having a relationship with God is eternal life. If one throws away the relationship and think you have life for evermore in heaven, you do not have or know salvation or God.

The Lords first command is strange. To love Him above everything else. But it is an infinite return of reality. Love is worthy of respect, ultimate exultation, and the more you know the more you love love. So in a sense by discovering love you actually fulfil the command rather than working at it in one sense. The command exists as a sign post to those who do not yet know love, that love can set them free.

My father strove all his life for significance in the eyes of others, while walking away from his wife and kids. He felt that he had made it, while missing the very thing that could have given him life. In his heart he liked the words of religion but denied its reality, and could never face the sadness and emptiness within. For him to admit he was trapped in this emotional defensive prison was a step to far. My brother on the other hand is slowly in his late 60's discovering the door of freedom and the light within that can forever shine.

This is why transactional language in terms of knowing God declare more about the speaker and their world within than the actual spiritual content. Nicodemus was in this place with Jesus. Jesus pointed out the Kingdom is based on this spiritual and emotional revelation of who God is and what it means to us, as the doorway to heaven, which is not being a jew or obeying the law, but entering into Gods reality. God bless you

 

[JLB]

Thank you for posting those verses numbers.

Jesus talks about entering the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 7:21-23. In my understanding, it is the same as grace / being saved and you said it isn't. I therefore asked:


And you didn't answer that question. The verses you posted don't either so I have no idea what you mean by being saved.

Would you share what you mean by salvation and how you believe the scriptures teach us we receive salvation?



Thanks JLB

 

[Degas]

Would you share what you mean by salvation and how you believe the scriptures teach us we receive salvation?

I never pretended to know the scriptures better than you do. If you want to trick me into discussing with you until you prove you're smarter than me, don't bother: you are smarter than me. Plain and simple. This doesn't change the fact that I do know God (Matthew 11:25 + Luke 10:21).

Now, rather than trying to make fun of my ignorance, how about using your knowledge of the scriptures and answering your own questions to educate me?

 

[JLB]

This doesn't change the fact that I do know God

I don’t think I’m very smart.


By the way, I’ll take knowing God any day over being smart…






JLB

 

[JLB]

I never pretended to know the scriptures better than you do. If you want to trick me into discussing with you until you prove you're smarter than me, don't bother: you are smarter than me. Plain and simple. This doesn't change the fact that I do know God (Matthew 11:25 + Luke 10:21).

Now, rather than trying to make fun of my ignorance, how about using your knowledge of the scriptures and answering your own questions to educate me?

I just wanted to discuss with you this all important subject, not trying to trick anyone.


I believe we receive salvation by faith, when we hear and obey the Gospel.



But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10



I believe we receive the salvation of our soul, (the thing we hope for in this life) at the end of our faith; as an end result of our faith.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9


I hope to discuss these things with you and hear what you have come to understand about this subject.


I certainly agree that knowing God is eternal life. Amen!




JLB

 

[Degas]

JLB Thank you for your answer.

Peter's words are only true if you consider faith as having different levels of depth, from merely believing Jesus performed miracles to being able to move mountains. Then yes, a certain depth of faith is associated with salvation. This is in contradiction with these words you quoted from Paul, words which are a good example of how Paul's views can be very shallow:

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

Over a billion Christians believe that and confess it with their mouth yet, as per Jesus' very words, many of them are not and won't be saved:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[JLB]

JLB Thank you for your answer.

Peter's words are only true if you consider faith as having different levels of depth, from merely believing Jesus performed miracles to being able to move mountains. Then yes, a certain depth of faith is associated with salvation. This is in contradiction with these words you quoted from Paul, words which are a good example of how Paul's views can be very shallow:

Over a billion Christians believe that and confess it with their mouth yet, as per Jesus' very words, many of them are not and won't be saved:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

Why do you see Paul's words as shallow?


Example:

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9

I dont find these words "shallow"?



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Over a billion Christians believe that and confess it with their mouth yet, as per Jesus' very words, many of them are not and won't be saved:

Many do not believe in their heart…. Instead, it’s a head thing which requires the right answer, and not the right relationship.

We don’t have a right relationship just because we think we know our doctrines cold.