Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[Rockytopva]

The works on our part...

8 The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. - Romans 10

 

[Degas]

Why do you see Paul's words as shallow?


Example:

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9

I dont find these words "shallow"?

Come on! This is what I said, check it:

Paul's views can be very shallow

I never said everything Paul wrote was shallow. If you're going to be dishonest in your argumentation, I'll stop responding to you (Matthew 10:11-14).

Now, here is a very good example of shallowness from Paul: "But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?" (Galatians 4:9). Paul managed to deny Christian faith twice in a single verse. Wow, what a thinker...

And how about this: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve." (1 Timothy 2:11-13). "For Adam was formed first, then Eve"! So much wisdom...

 

[JLB]

I never said everything Paul wrote was shallow. If you're going to be dishonest in your argumentation, I'll stop responding to you (Matthew 10:11-14).

Here is what I said.

Why do you see Paul's words as shallow?

I never mentioned everything. I just asked why you thoughts Pauls words were shallow. I’m responding to what you said in an effort to have a discussion.


No need to be combative. Let’s just discuss the subject, please.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Now, here is a very good example of shallowness from Paul: "But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?" (Galatians 4:9). Paul managed to deny Christian faith twice in a single verse. Wow, what a thinker...

How did Paul deny the Christian faith in this verse?

 

[JLB]

And how about this: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve." (1 Timothy 2:11-13). "For Adam was formed first, then Eve"! So much wisdom...

Why do you find this shallow. Paul is dealing with the cultural mindset of his day.




JLB

 

[Degas]

I never mentioned everything. I just asked why you thoughts Pauls words were shallow. I’m responding to what you said in an effort to have a discussion.


No need to be combative. Let’s just discuss the subject, please.

You quoted a specific verse from Paul and asked why I would find it shallow, hence implying that I say all verses from Paul are shallow:

Why do you see Paul's words as shallow?


Example:

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9

I dont find these words "shallow"?

I am done with your lack of integrity -- that's three times in a row -- so, as per Matthew 10:11-14, I'll stop responding to you and I'll spare my time for people who really are interested in trying to know the truth.

 

[Degas]

Many do not believe in their heart…. Instead, it’s a head thing which requires the right answer, and not the right relationship.

We don’t have a right relationship just because we think we know our doctrines cold.

This is a deep understanding. Now, I'm not sure what you mean by 'right relationship' but believing, whether in one's mind or in one's heart is not enough. Jesus was clear that what's necessary to go to Heaven is doing the will of God: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" (Matthew 7:21-23).

This means that:
1- even if someone deeply believes Jesus has been raised from the dead, they are not sure to go to Heaven
2- on the contrary, even if someone doesn't believe Jesus has been raised from the dead, let alone confesses it with their mouth, they can still do God's will hence be bound to Heaven.

 

[stovebolts]

This is a deep understanding. Now, I'm not sure what you mean by 'right relationship' but believing, whether in one's mind or in one's heart is not enough. Jesus was clear that what's necessary to go to Heaven is doing the will of God: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" (Matthew 7:21-23).

This means that:
1- even if someone deeply believes Jesus has been raised from the dead, they are not sure to go to Heaven
2- on the contrary, even if someone doesn't believe Jesus has been raised from the dead, let alone confesses it with their mouth, they can still do God's will hence be bound to Heaven.

From a 50,000 foot view, this is the way I see it.

There is a way…. The way of God or our way, which can often get us into trouble. Sometimes we’re even our own worst enemy.

Scripture says that even the demons believe (James 2:19). Certainly, we don’t believe the demons are saved. As far as Matthew 7:21-23, your assessment with your first point is affirmed.

I’m reminded of Simon the sorcerer as told in Acts 8 who tried to buy his way into the power of the kingdom.

Faith is about putting what we believe into action. Ok, so we believe Jesus was raised from the grave. Is that enough to believe, and put into practice the teachings of Jesus…. Matthew 5 thru 7? It’s first and foremost about relationship. Why are we “doing”. What’s our treasure?

As far as your second point, that can get murky very quick. And it’s not a cut and dry issue as some may assert. For some, I would say yes and for others, I would say no but that’s just my opinion based off my current understanding of scripture. Will they go to heaven? That’s really Gods judgment and as Christians, our job is the same as Jesus mission, which is to seek and save the lost. Our ministry is a ministry of reconciliation. That’s where Jesus put his energy, so that’s good enough for me.

 

[Edward]

but believing, whether in one's mind or in one's heart is not enough. Jesus was clear that what's necessary to go to Heaven is doing the will of God:

In the original Greek language the term believe has a connotative action applied to it. So belief means accepting it as truth and actually walking in it and taking related actions which demonstrate belief.

IOW, being a doer and not just a hearer of the word.

 

[stovebolts]

IOW, being a doer and not just a hearer of the word.

and I might add, "For the right reasons".
When we hear the word and do the word for self gain, it's real easy to miss the mark.

Don't get me wrong, living the commandments is the best way to live, so when I say self gain, I want to qualify that with the story of Simon the sorcerer who wanted to glorify himself above God.

 

[JLB]

You quoted a specific verse from Paul and asked why I would find it shallow, hence implying that I say all verses from Paul are shallow:

Not true. I never said or insinuated that you said all verses from Paul are shallow. No need for you to assume.

I am done with your lack of integrity -- that's three times in a row -- so, as per Matthew 10:11-14, I'll stop responding to you and I'll spare my time for people who really are interested in trying to know the truth.

Well I can tell you, I’m done with your combative attitude.

AlI I have done is try to have a peaceful conversation and discuss what you believe.


I have asked you simple questions that should be easy to answer, and instead of answering to resort to being rude and combative.


Here are some simple questions I asked you:


Why do you see Paul's words as shallow?

How did Paul deny the Christian faith in this verse?


Why are you so defensive? Why not just state your answer, without the insults?


We are not going to allow you or anyone else to undermine the validity of scripture, all scripture which includes the writings of Paul or the book of Revelation.

No need for you to sow division and strife here. Please refrain from doing so.


I hope you can learn to cooperate and promote healthy dialog here in this Forum.




JLB

 

[Degas]

our job is the same as Jesus mission, which is to seek and save the lost.

Not true! Only those who have been appointed by Jesus, like the disciples were, are supposed to spread the word. Most Christians think they are entitled to witness to Jesus but they are just blind leading the blind:

"Disregard them! They are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matthew 15:14)

Of course, Jesus was talking about the Pharisees in this verse but, sadly, most nowadays Christians are like them; they think they know God because they know the doctrine but they really have no clue.

It's like when we say we know Emily Dickinson because we read some of her poetry. Yet, even if we read all her poetry, even if we knew all her poetry by rote, we still wouldn't know much about Emily Dickinson herself. On the other hands, her close family could have said they knew her well, even if they never showed any interest in her writings.

 

[Edward]

It's like when we say we know Emily Dickinson because we read some of her poetry. Yet, even if we read all her poetry, even if we knew all her poetry by rote, we still wouldn't know much about Emily Dickinson herself. On the other hands, her close family could have said they knew her well, even if they never showed any interest in her writings.

Something in this is striking me as wrong. I'll chew on this for a few moments while I hook up my coffee IV.

It seems true on it's face of course but all is not as it seems and we continually see that every day.

It's like playing chess. How many moves ahead can you see? I've always seemed to have a little bit of difficulty seeing more than 2 or 3 moves ahead. But as we know (Lol), Jesus is good at that! And I think He said you're wrong about that in scripture!

So instead of poetry let's gander at that piece of literature, the Bible! Jesus said for us to write His word upon our hearts, right? We are to read scriptures every day and meditate upon them, right? Familiar with that? (I'll look it up if you need me to.)

Meditating upon the Words is what writes it upon your heart. You are becoming what you think about. What we think about we dwell on, or meditate upon if it's important to us. What we dwell on, we connect with. And when there's connection there's activation. So it's fairly easy to see that these things are possible. In short, that's it. That's what's wrong with your post. You could get to know emily dickinson by meditating upon her words and or image...to a certain degree. I will agree that meeting Him (or her) would go further (or at least, the rest of the way) to knowing Him (or her) than just reading her words.

Sound far fetched? Then meditate upon that for awhile, lol. Because when we meditate upon (anything), it...manifests itself to us. Now the difference between emily dickinson and God's words is that, emily dickinson's spirit is not going to come to you and speak to reveal truth to you. But the principle stands. What you think about, you connect with. Remember the similarities between what Jesus seeks and what evil spirits seek. Now us, we are believers and saved! Praise God! And we are all of His body. Jesus is the head and us, the body. (How many souls are in Christ total?!) Wow.
Then you have the demon possessed man who's name was Legion, for he is many, remember? Same principle. We are in Christ. Christ is in us. I am literally, possessed by God and possess God (having the mind of Christ?!). And we are His possession also.

So I submit that if it works with Jesus, then it would work with Emiy Dickinson. No to the same degree because Jesus is the name above all names so emily can't send her spirit to teach you, lol. So everything higher and better with GOD.

Cont...

 

[Edward]

I remember Bruce Allen teaching in one video where he recounted a testimony that happened to some people. And what happened is, A mom brought her out of control teen to church to try to help him. He was your young punk boy teenager type and somewhere had gotten ahold of Mein Kumpf book and read it and became so infatuated with it and the nazi's and stuff that he got a poster of Hitler and put it on the wall in his room. And that boy would lock himself in his room and sit there and gaze at that poster and read his book...and it began affecting him. He weren't as nice as he used to be. The boy was just a poor white boy never been out of the United States. He wasn't German, didn't speak the language, never been there. But he became so enamoured with nazi's and Hitler that it must have opened some kind of door?

Cuz when they went to church, he had an attitude and wanted to sit in the very back, but he did and sat and the Pastor preached. But this boys connection with Hitler brought the evil spirits to him. And they didn't like having to sit and listen to the word of God being spoken so at some point in the service they enraged the boy so much that he stood up and began walking up the asile towards the pulpit pointing his finger at the Pastor and cursing him out in German (speaking to him in German, a language he was never taught).

And this boy certainly never met Hitler. He don't know Hitler! But he knew him enough to get possessed by the same evil spirits that possessed Hitler.

Long story short, the boy did get delivered because the Brother was on his toes and took authority over the spirits, lol!

So would you like to get to know Emily Dickinson?
I’m Nobody! Who are you?
Are you – Nobody – too?
Then there’s a pair of us!
Don’t tell! they’d advertise – you know!.../

Emily Dickinson was cool. lol. That's one of her best I think.

 

[stovebolts]

Not true! Only those who have been appointed by Jesus, like the disciples were, are supposed to spread the word. Most Christians think they are entitled to witness to Jesus but they are just blind leading the blind:

There are many ways to seek and save the lost. But to your broader point, you are correct. Jesus never taught false religion. Instead, he showed compassion for others and on certain occasions fed them when they were hungry. He gave words of comfort, wisdom, encouragement and guidance on how to live better, more joyful lives. This is the way, and Jesus shows us as well as teaches us this way. By seek and save the lost, I do not mean teaching false religion. Instead, I mean using Jesus as an example to help others in their struggles.

f course, Jesus was talking about the Pharisees in this verse but, sadly, most nowadays Christians are like them; they think they know God because they know the doctrine but they really have no clue.

I couldn’t agree more. I came out of a very legalistic church so I do understand your point. Life is not in the scriptures. Life is being in relationship with Jesus, and scriptures can help us know Jesus and his ways better. When we pervert scripture to reduce it to a set of rules and requirements, we do it a severe injustice.

It's like when we say we know Emily Dickinson because we read some of her poetry. Yet, even if we read all her poetry, even if we knew all her poetry by rote, we still wouldn't know much about Emily Dickinson herself. On the other hands, her close family could have said they knew her well, even if they never showed any interest in her writings.

I understand. One thing I would like you to consider is this. We will only know Jesus to the extent that our desire for him is. Jesus talks about where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. It really begs the question, what do you treasure? If we go into scripture with the wrong motive, we can very well use scripture as a weapon for our own personal agenda. Why? Because ones personal agenda can be treasured more than a vulnerable relationship with God.

Jesus says knock and the door will be opened for you, seek and you will find. We need to ask ourselves what we are seeking and on who’s door we are knocking. It all comes back to our treasure.

 

[PeterJens]

JLB Thank you for your answer.

Peter's words are only true if you consider faith as having different levels of depth, from merely believing Jesus performed miracles to being able to move mountains. Then yes, a certain depth of faith is associated with salvation. This is in contradiction with these words you quoted from Paul, words which are a good example of how Paul's views can be very shallow:

Over a billion Christians believe that and confess it with their mouth yet, as per Jesus' very words, many of them are not and won't be saved:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

Words are tricky things. Everyone knows ...... which is a way of saying a particular thing is common knowledge, or it is so fundamental like breathing everyone can think and agree with it.

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:9​

This sounds simple but Paul explains, faith is taking in the whole nature of God into ourselves, and responding in positive affirmation to Gods work in raising Jesus, and outwardly witness to this very reality with our mouths, we will be saved.

The superficial statement that most will miss is the phrase "that God" Knowing God the Father, the creator, the foundation of all things, love and justice, is one with Jesus and raised Him because Jesus was part of the trinity, the Messiah, the sacrificial lamb, the cornerstone of Israel, the High Priest who stands before the Father interceding for us, if you believe all this, you will be saved.

Summaries are dangerous things, because for some this phrase "God" the creator, the stern distant unknown who had His son perform an act which they think sorted everything, you just got to believe that, thats salvation guys.

Paul is trying to encapsulate the simplicity of knowing God with a repentant open heart and let Him work in us, from those who want to make it appear rules based and distant, and very unsure.

For Paul being a jew, he knew the Father, his deeds, his nature, his law, his reasoning and response to things. Just by saying "that God" for him meant all of this, but not for us gentiles who have to actually learn it. I fall into the same trap often, assuming people know what I mean is summary, while they actually only hear a few words, and it gets little further. It is why "yes" is the most missunderstood response to the question "do you understand?"

The only useful response is to get people to give the response that tells the ideas in their own words back to the questioner. I once did this in a church and the different response I got which were some odd cross religious mixture it made one wonder how many actually knew and understood the basic facts.

It is why the term conditional salvation is a complete distraction.
If Jesus meant sinners to stay sinners in their lives, there is no becoming like Jesus or following His example, or being yoked to Him, of being in the light and not darkness, of having the joy of salvation rather than the defeat of bondage to sin. Or like saying a driving instructor will drive the car for the rest of your life, rather than they are there to teach you how to drive. Jesus is there to teach us how to live, literally, emotionally, openly, lovingly, in grace and truth, to be overcomers, to be brave in the face of death, to know His transforming power in our lives daily.

God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Whenever we make anything a must do prior to God saving us, and God saves us because of that we must do ir have done, we automatically forfeit salvation by Grace and come under the opposing view of salvation by works.
If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This position is not reflected in the New Testament answers when anyone asked what they must DO to be saved. No one answered, “nothing at all.” In fact, every single person who asked that question was given an answer that required something of them. Those answers differed and at least in one case, it required actual work.

Now if one wants some understanding on the matter, think of a man being rescued from drowning. Those on shore throw him a life preserver. He grabs it and hangs on literally for dear life. Let’s say the current is quite strong and three strong men are required to pull him in. Who has the major part in saving him? Does that man get up and boast about how he saved himself by holding on or does he deeply thank the men on shore?

Just so we have a necessary but insufficient part in salvation. Forgiving others, for example, is REQUIRED to be forgiven. Is it necessary? Yes. Is that sufficient for God to forgive us? No.

 

[PeterJens]

This position is not reflected in the New Testament answers when anyone asked what they must DO to be saved. No one answered, “nothing at all.” In fact, every single person who asked that question was given an answer that required something of them. Those answers differed and at least in one case, it required actual work.

Now if one wants some understanding on the matter, think of a man being rescued from drowning. Those on shore throw him a life preserver. He grabs it and hangs on literally for dear life. Let’s say the current is quite strong and three strong men are required to pull him in. Who has the major part in saving him? Does that man get up and boast about how he saved himself by holding on or does he deeply thank the men on shore?

Just so we have a necessary but insufficient part in salvation. Forgiving others, for example, is REQUIRED to be forgiven. Is it necessary? Yes. Is that sufficient for God to forgive us? No.

How many miss, why salvation?
If we go for a job, and take it on, but sit there bored and think it is all pointless, we will leave that job.
Jesus goes out of His way to describe what it is like in the Kingdom, emotional expression, care, love, sensitivity, openness, giving to others and receiving back.

For many salvation is just not dying and going to hell. There is no sensitivity to real life or what is actual life and love as opposed to selfishness and destruction which leads to death. Many think death is Gods judgement on them, and fail to see it is actually what happens if you abide in sin. Often when you meet people who are alone and desperate for help, it is not because there were not people in their lives, but rather they have wrecked their life and their contacts, anyone who got close to them.

Once you accept this is the real eternal world, clearly staying selfish and destructive is not being part of the Kingdom and is that which the Lord will ultimately stop and put away. It is no surprise then that those who want to hold salvation is just God making us part of the Kingdom reject love and loving others as an expression of Christ in the heart. I speak this because of personal experience of their hatred and condemnation of me for desiring to walk in love, righteously, and discover how to follow Jesus, following His example. As it is clear from scripture this is Jesus's intention, I would suggest they do not know Jesus at all........the phrase you are my disciples if you do what I command actually means nothing to them.

They interpret doing what Jesus commands as believing he bought a free trip to heaven if you just accept the ticket at some point in your life, no matter what else happens. It becomes like some lottery draw and you just won the winning ticket, whether you claim it or not, you are forced literally into heaven. This is completely the opposite of Jesus and the Kingdom it is laughable. God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How many miss, why salvation?
If we go for a job, and take it on, but sit there bored and think it is all pointless, we will leave that job.
Jesus goes out of His way to describe what it is like in the Kingdom, emotional expression, care, love, sensitivity, openness, giving to others and receiving back.

For many salvation is just not dying and going to hell. There is no sensitivity to real life or what is actual life and love as opposed to selfishness and destruction which leads to death. Many think death is Gods judgement on them, and fail to see it is actually what happens if you abide in sin. Often when you meet people who are alone and desperate for help, it is not because there were not people in their lives, but rather they have wrecked their life and their contacts, anyone who got close to them.

Once you accept this is the real eternal world, clearly staying selfish and destructive is not being part of the Kingdom and is that which the Lord will ultimately stop and put away. It is no surprise then that those who want to hold salvation is just God making us part of the Kingdom reject love and loving others as an expression of Christ in the heart. I speak this because of personal experience of their hatred and condemnation of me for desiring to walk in love, righteously, and discover how to follow Jesus, following His example. As it is clear from scripture this is Jesus's intention, I would suggest they do not know Jesus at all........the phrase you are my disciples if you do what I command actually means nothing to them.

They interpret doing what Jesus commands as believing he bought a free trip to heaven if you just accept the ticket at some point in your life, no matter what else happens. It becomes like some lottery draw and you just won the winning ticket, whether you claim it or not, you are forced literally into heaven. This is completely the opposite of Jesus and the Kingdom it is laughable. God bless you

His blessing upon you as well.

 

[Degas]

For Paul being a jew, he knew the Father, his deeds, his nature, his law, his reasoning and response to things. Just by saying "that God" for him meant all of this, but not for us gentiles who have to actually learn it

Contrary to what you think, learning about God is as pointless as learning about the taste of a freshly harvested ripe mango. You either know it by tasting it or you don't. When one knows God, one understands Their teachings; when one doesn't know God, one doesn't understand Their teachings (John 8:47).

Just by reading Paul -- and most Christian preachers -- I know they know nothing of God. They only have intellectual understanding about Them... and Jesus made it clear intellectual understanding is useless (Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21)