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"Confession" - The Sacrament

Rick W said:
......How can you claim the OP is not Catholic in nature when Apostolic Succession is clearly being referred to?......

Just as with Confession, Apostolic Succession is ALSO accepted by Coptics, "Traditional" Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.) Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, and others. And in fact, Catholics respect and accept the Apostolic Succession of Eastern Orthodox bishops.

So please, sir, I am trying to make this about the TOPIC and not about Catholicism. Out of all the people here, I would hope that YOU at least would repect that
 
JoJo said:
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question:

JoJo said:
TheCatholic, do you believe our sins aren't forgiven unless we confess to a priest?

Sorry, I missed that one.

I believe that God is God, and He alone decides whom to forgive and to grant salvation to.

I actually believe that anyone has the possibility of salvation whether they know about Jesus or not. And I quote a teaching of my Church:

CCC 847 .....Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.


So, unlike many fundametalists, we are actually far more forgiving.

Having said that, those who have knowledge of thr truth have responsibnlity too. Thus, this thread.
 
Here's the full entry from the CCC:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

In other words, if you know Christ, know who He is and you are NOT ignorant of the Gospel then if you aren't a member of the church then salvation is not possible for you. It is certain that all salvation comes from Christ. It does NOT come through the Church. The subtlety of the Catholic church is indeed deceptive and it is indeed something to be on the lookout for.
 
TheCatholic said:
JoJo said:
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question:

JoJo said:
TheCatholic, do you believe our sins aren't forgiven unless we confess to a priest?

Sorry, I missed that one.

I believe that God is God, and He alone decides whom to forgive and to grant salvation to.

Maybe a yes or no would be helpful. I understand and agree that God forgives and grants salvation, but do you believe we can't gain access to it without mediation by a priest?

CCC 847 .....Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

It sounds like a lovely thought, and I would love, love, love to believe this. But is this biblical? Can you provide just one verse from the Holy Bible to support this claim?
 
Hi TheCatholic,

It is hard to not go into other mostly Catholic issues when discussing this topic, but I will try.

I believe that we are to confess our faults to one another, and to Jesus, according to the Word. Now, this may include an elder, or it may even be a sister or brother, or it may be to Jesus alone. I believe that members of the body are all servants to be used by God according to their calling. I believe in the priesthood of the believer. Christ is the head of the church, and we are it's members. Peter says that we are living stones and a royal priesthood.

1 Peter 2:9-10
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

I do not believe in Apostolic succession, but a succession of faithful teaching...through the working of God by His own will and for His own glory. We can see the first example of this with Paul.

Galatians 1:15-17
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

We are also all one body, given gifts according to the measure of Christ for the edicfication of the body to come to full maturity in love.

Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spiritâ€â€just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.â€Â

9 (In saying, “He ascended,†what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.


God's called the Jews out to be a people of priests.

Exodus 19:5-6
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.â€Â

The people were afraid to see God, and desired to hear Moses instead.

Our Mediator is Christ, and we are His priests to a lost world and part of a Kingdom that can not be shaken.

Hebrews 12
8 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.†21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.†22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

1 Timothy 2
b1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.


Just my thoughts on the priesthood, and the context of confession. The Lord bless you.
 
Nice quote.
Your point?

And by the way, you subeverted the quote by adding your own commentary into it. That is a typical dishonest SDA move.
RND said:
Here's the full entry from the CCC:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

In other words, if you know Christ, know who He is and you are NOT ignorant of the Gospel then if you aren't a member of the church then salvation is not possible for you. It is certain that all salvation comes from Christ. It does NOT come through the Church. The subtlety of the Catholic church is indeed deceptive and it is indeed something to be on the lookout for.
 
TheCatholic said:
Nice quote.
Your point?
Was this:

In other words, if you know Christ, know who He is and you are NOT ignorant of the Gospel then if you aren't a member of the church then salvation is not possible for you. It is certain that all salvation comes from Christ. It does NOT come through the Church. The subtlety of the Catholic church is indeed deceptive and it is indeed something to be on the lookout for.
 
TheCatholic said:
Nice quote.
Your point?

RND said:
Here's the full entry from the CCC:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

In other words, if you know Christ, know who He is and you are NOT ignorant of the Gospel then if you aren't a member of the church then salvation is not possible for you. It is certain that all salvation comes from Christ. It does NOT come through the Church. The subtlety of the Catholic church is indeed deceptive and it is indeed something to be on the lookout for.

Il give you a point,,,the article you presented in false and one can say its a flat lie.........

I would show the the err,,but the mods will erase it,,,,,again....
 
RND said:
TheCatholic said:
Nice quote.
Your point?
Was this:

In other words, if you know Christ, know who He is and you are NOT ignorant of the Gospel then if you aren't a member of the church then salvation is not possible for you. It is certain that all salvation comes from Christ. It does NOT come through the Church. The subtlety of the Catholic church is indeed deceptive and it is indeed something to be on the lookout for.


This thread is not about "Salvation". Please try to stay on topic. I know you SDAs
love to spread your propoganda, but I won't have it in this thread
 
NIGHTMARE said:
Il give you a point,,,the article you presented in false and one can say its a flat lie.........

I would show the the err,,but the mods will erase it,,,,,again....

Yet I offer many scripture quotations, and you offer none.
Very intersting
 
Do you have one that can back up this claim?

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

I would really like to know if the Bible supports this affirmation. Because like I said, I would love for this to be true. I worry about those who don't ever get a chance to know Christ.
 
TheCatholic said:
NIGHTMARE said:
Il give you a point,,,the article you presented in false and one can say its a flat lie.........

I would show the the err,,but the mods will erase it,,,,,again....

Yet I offer many scripture quotations, and you offer none.
Very intersting


Cant debate it here,,,,,,but I assure you,,,you dont want to debate catholicism with me :naughty ,,,,your way outa your league friend..... :study
 
JoJo said:
Do you have one that can back up this claim?

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

I would really like to know if the Bible supports this affirmation. Because like I said, I would love for this to be true. I worry about those who don't ever get a chance to know Christ.

I worry about those who don't ever get a chance to know Christ

Why??????? God is fair,,,besides thats what the millenium is for........
 
TheCatholic said:
This thread is not about "Salvation". Please try to stay on topic.
You made it about salvation by quoting (incorrectly I might add) the CCC which relates specifically to salvation.

I know you SDAs love to spread your propoganda, but I won't have it in this thread
I haven't posted any SDA propaganda!If anything I quoted the entire part of "Outside the Church there is no salvation" that you neglected to post. You can blame me all you want but because you posted part of the cate(s)chism you effectively opened that up for questioning.

You made this thread about salvation by quoting the CCC.
 
JoJo said:
Do you have one that can back up this claim?

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

I would really like to know if the Bible supports this affirmation. Because like I said, I would love for this to be true. I worry about those who don't ever get a chance to know Christ.

God is love, and he will save who he pleases.

Do you deny God's perogative?
 
TheCatholic,

I think my post was on topic, did you consider it?
 
NIGHTMARE said:
TheCatholic said:
NIGHTMARE said:
Il give you a point,,,the article you presented in false and one can say its a flat lie.........

I would show the the err,,but the mods will erase it,,,,,again....

Yet I offer many scripture quotations, and you offer none.
Very intersting


Cant debate it here,,,,,,but I assure you,,,you dont want to debate catholicism with me :naughty ,,,,your way outa your league friend..... :study

1) This is not about Catholicism. This is about what almost all Christians beieve, as stated in the OP

2) You STILL offer no scriptures. Again, very interesting
 
lovely said:
TheCatholic,

I think my post was on topic, did you consider it?
I'm sorry.
I will read it and respond.
Give me a little time
 
TheCatholic said:
1) This is not about Catholicism. This is about what almost all Christians beieve, as stated in the OP
The OP is about Catholicism and promoting Catholic doctrine. When the OP states that Jesus gave the apostles the ability and right to forgive sins and the Catholic church promotes it's priest's as being "on par" with the apostles they are saying, in effect, they have the right to forgive sins.

No man, not even the apostles, had the right or ability to forgive sins. That is only the purview of Jesus Christ.

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he (Jesus Christ - God on earth) is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2) You STILL offer no scriptures. Again, very interesting
Neither do you.
 
TheCatholic said:
God is love, and he will save who he pleases.

Do you deny God's perogative?

What a silly question to ask a Christian. I'm not denying God's prerogatives by asking you to back up, with biblical support, speculative claims about salvation.

If this claim was true, there would be no need for missionaries to travel around the world to reach the lost. If this claim was true, why would Jesus tell His disciples to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature," (Mark 16:15)?
 
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