francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
- 4
RND said:
In other words, you are wrong.
In your attempt to cite the Catholic Church's Catechism and put your own spin on it, you fail to understand WHO the Church identifies as being PART of the Church. Thus, you misrepresent the Church's own teachings (yet again) while talking about deception? You fail to note the mystery of the Body of Christ, as the Church IS the Body of Christ, and Scriptures clearly tell us that without Christ, there is NO salvation. Without His Body, there is no salvation.
To better explain the Catechism's citations that you provide with improper explanation, I will give the pertinenet Vatican 2 quotes from Lumen Gentium, a document where the Church identifies itself. This will help others better understand the Catholic viewpoint of what is the Church and who is part of it and in what way...
{8} Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.
Thus, it is your mistake to separate the invisible from the visible structure that is the ONE Church. As Christ was divine and human, visible and invisible, yet the same Being, so, too, is the Church. The invisible are not separated from the visible entirely.
Just to give you an example of the Church's ever-present view of herself and those outside of her society, when a person decides to become Catholic, they are not entering into the Church, per sec, they are ALREADY part of the Church. The proof is that they are not re-Baptised, which IS the means by which we ENTER the Church. Vatican 2's Lumen Gentium, chapter 2 makes this abundantly clear...
{14} This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.
As an RCIA coordinator, I can tell you we do not rebaptize those who are already Christians. They are already part of the Church. But in what way WERE they part of the Church? Here is the entire paragraph.
{15.} The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
Citations from [i][url]http://www.vatican.va/archi...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html[/i][/url]
The Church desires full membership, a full realization of the benefits that the Lord has left us with. The Church is a visible sacrament of Christ in the world. He continues to come to us in visible form in the Divine Liturgy. Christ comes to us through sacramental (visible) actions. Thus, these elements represent a "fullness" that is not present among those of the Church who remain outside of her visible society. Thus, when the Church says...
There is no salvation outside of the Church
It does NOT mean that those who are not Roman Catholic cannot be saved. This is made clear by the definitions provided by Vatican 2, but also part of the faith of our Church from the beginning.
I do not want to turn this into a Catholic discussion; I do not expect commentary, really. However, I wanted to provide correction to your assertion, not for you, but for the sake of others reading these posts, so that they may know the TRUTH of what the Church teaches, rather than your strawman misunderstandings.
