"Confession" - The Sacrament

[follower of Christ]

Humphf... What did those first Catholics know, anyway... Only people 2000 years removed reading a bible interpreted from an interpretation of another interpretation of the bible can REALLY figure out what Christ REALLY meant...

There was heresy from the very beginning and from among ourselves....so what was going on 2000 years ago is irrelevant.
What IS relevant is that scripture DOESNT insist that we 'confess' our sins to a priest or a pastor to receive forgiveness.

For I know this, that savage wolves will come in after my departure, not sparing the flock. Also from among you yourselves will arise men speaking things having been distorted, in order to draw away the disciples after them.
(Acts 20:29-30 EMTV)

The ECF's ARENT Christ chosen apostles and therefore are just as fallible and untrustworthy as any other man.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

You can if you want...it doesnt matter either way.

[youtube:1c2khlrd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQCiYlrugc&feature=PlayList&p=C626D3E1EA3E26B2&index=4[/youtube:1c2khlrd]

 

[TheCatholic]

While I will freely ADMIT my shortcomings to another man, my 'confession' is to God alone.

And if God has empowered certain men to forgive you in his name? Then what? Would you reject what God has established?

 

[follower of Christ]

And if God has empowered certain men to forgive you in his name? Then what? Would you reject what God has established?

*IF* that were the case, friend, then there would be NO question in the matter. Scripture would PLAINLY STATE that we MUST confess to a priest, etc *IF* it were the case that we HAD to.

When you can PROVE that this is GODS method, Im all ears/eyes

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[Veritas]

All of this is true, but does not address the fact that Christ gives authority to particular men to bind, loosen, and forgive sins - all in the name of Jesus Christ.

Could you show which scripture is used to support this?

....and doesn't the CC also hold the belief that if we ask God directly to be forgiven we will be forgiven?

I see nothing wrong with confession. James suggests it. And it seems obvious it's a good thing to do among christian brothers in the church. But I don't see it as a limitation to our forgiveness. I would assume the CC doesn't either.

 

[follower of Christ]

....and doesn't the CC also hold the belief that if we ask God directly to be forgiven we will be forgiven?

I would certainly hope so.
To say that God turns a deaf ear to a repentant heart simply because no priest is around is nothing short of heresy and endangers the soul itself.

 

[TheCatholic]

friend, then there would be NO question in the matter.....

Well that IS the case.
And you're right: There is no question in the matter.

 

[TheCatholic]

....and doesn't the CC also hold the belief that if we ask God directly to be forgiven we will be forgiven?......

Sure, but we are not of the "either/or" mindset. We are of the "both/and" mindset.

And besides, when we go to those empowered by God, we ARE going to God, in the manner he has proscribed.

And as I said in the OP, this is not just a Catholic thing: Many Christians believe and practice confession to a pastor, including: Coptics, "Traditional" Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.) Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, and others. Only those groups who trace themselves to so-called "Reformation" theology, or to the reformers themselves, reject this belief. And that, in fact, winds up being a small percentage of Christians

 

[follower of Christ]

friend, then there would be NO question in the matter.....

Well that IS the case.
And you're right: There is no question in the matter.

Huh.
And ya didnt have the time to show CLEAR scriptural support ?
I guess we're just supposed to take your word for it, right ? ;)



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[follower of Christ]

And besides, when we go to those empowered by God, we ARE going to God, in the manner he has proscribed.

Then you shouldnt have ANY problem providing support from HIS word,....right ?

And as I said in the OP, this is not just a Catholic thing: Many Christians believe and practice confession to a pastor, including: Coptics, "Traditional" Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.) Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, and others.

You say its not just Catholics but then add two catholic groups into the list there.

And again its irrelevant.
when you can SHOW us the money from GODS WORD then, as I said already, I'll be all eyes and ears.

Only those groups who trace themselves to so-called "Reformation" theology,

or to the reformers themselves, reject this belief.

And there is a reason why we walked away from Catholic doctrine, friend ;)

And that, in fact, winds up being a small percentage of Christians

Now THAT is a laugh.
There is a HUGE percentage of Christians who DONT practice confession to priests, gent.
I dont know where youre getting your data from, but I suggest you get back to the research.

 

[TheCatholic]

.....when you can SHOW us the money from GODS WORD then, as I said already, I'll be all eyes and ears. .......

Indeed. I know I can demonstrate it from God's Word, and I know you will still reject the explanation.

 

[follower of Christ]

.....when you can SHOW us the money from GODS WORD then, as I said already, I'll be all eyes and ears. .......

Indeed. I know I can demonstrate it from God's Word, and I know you will still reject the explanation.

No friend, I said I am all eyes and ears....my attention is yours 100%.
PROVE to me with Gods word that I need to confess to a priest and I'll go to a church, find a priest and do it within 24 hours.

*IF* this doctrine WERE true, you wouldnt have to 'demonstrate it', it would be as clear as 'Ye must be born again'.

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[TheCatholic]

*IF* this doctrine WERE true, you wouldnt have to 'demonstrate it'....

Correct doctrines must be demonstrated to those who accept false doctrines.

Your position was never accpted until the 16th century. It is a tradition of men that nullifies the word of God.

If you really want an explanation, try reading these article for starters:
Article 1
Article 2

 

[RND]

It is a tradition of men that nullifies the word of God.

If that's the case then by your own admission the RCC is nullified.

"If we must choose between the Holy Scriptures of God, and the old errors of the church, we should reject the former." -- Johnan Faber (a defender of the Papacy) cited in History of The Reformation, by Merle d'Aubinge, book 11, Chapter 5, Paragraph 9.

"Like two sacred rivers flowing from paradaise, the Bible and divine tradition contain the word of God, the precious gems of revealed truths. Though these two divine streams are in themselves, on acount of their divine origin, of equal sacredness, and are both full of revealed truths, still of the two, tradition is to us more clear and safe." -- Catholic Belief, by Joseph Faa di Bruno, p 45.

"This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular (language of the people) translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church. The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church, they all interpret the words of the Lord by their own private judgment, thereby perverting their meaning. As a result, they fall into the greatest errors. Gregory XVI of happy memory, Our superior predecessor, followed the lead of his own predecessors in rejecting these societies in his apostolic letters. It is Our will to condemn them likewise." -- Pope Pius IX, Qui Pluribus (On Faith And Religion), Encyclical promulgated on November 9, 1846, #14.

"The belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity." -- The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIII, "Protestantism", Section III A - Sola Scriptura ("Bible Alone"), Nihil Obstat, February 1, 1912 by Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor, Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

 

[jasoncran]

this thread has gone into were it shouldn't have, a catholic debate.i'm locking this thread