Conspicuous absence

[Brokendoll]

I have a question to ask all athiest on this forum, like brokendoll. What is your purpose? Why are you trying to convince Christians to deny their faith in Christ? It does not make sense to me. You claim to not believe in any religion, yet you are obsessed in trying to prove God does not exist!!!

I already answered as to my purpose here above, but I can try to elaborate somewhat.

"What is your purpose [here on this forum]?"
As mentioned above, I think it is important to know a little about the people with whom you share a planet, and I am well aware that as an atheist (i.e. someone who does not believe in any god or gods) I am outnumbered. This may not always be so, but for the forseeable future, this will be the case. Hence, I think it prudent that I take some time to ask questions, discuss, argue and in other ways communicate with those who do believe in a god about subjects where we might differ. Also, I love having my views challenged. Otherwise, how can I go on assuming that they are valid. ;)

"Why are you trying to convince Christians to deny their faith in Christ?"
I'm not, and I do not think I could even if that was my intention. I am merely debating various subjects within the rules of this forum to the best of my ability? Why? Mainly because I love a good discussion. Of course, some of my viewpoints will be colored by the fact that I am an atheist, just like your views on certain things might be colored by the fact that you are a Christian. How could it be otherwise? But to convince people that their faith (or lack thereof as it may be) is wrong? Don't see that happening.

"You claim to not believe in any religion, yet you are obsessed in trying to prove God does not exist!!!"
Watch the bloodpressure there mate. ;) Disproving god is by it's very definition impossible. I don't know if you have heard about a science philosopher called Karl Popper, but he postulated quite correctly that you can never prove the non-existence of ANYTHING. For instance, there is no way we can prove with certainty that there are no faeries anywhere. Go ahead. Try it.
So, you see, I cannot be trying to disprove god. That would be an exercise in futility.

Hope that answers your question(s).

 

[Godfrey]

I don't know if you have heard about a science philosopher called Karl Popper, but he postulated quite correctly that you can never prove the non-existence of ANYTHING.

I keep seeing that, and it always occurs to me that Fermat's Last Theorem is a counterexample. Maybe there are qualifiers in Popper's assertion that need to be stated explicitly?

 

[Brokendoll]

I don't know if you have heard about a science philosopher called Karl Popper, but he postulated quite correctly that you can never prove the non-existence of ANYTHING.

I keep seeing that, and it always occurs to me that Fermat's Last Theorem is a counterexample. Maybe there are qualifiers in Popper's assertion that need to be stated explicitly?

Well, Popper's statement was obviously related to science in general, while I feel that Fermat's Theorem is an exclusively mathematical proposition. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

As has been mentioned earlier mathematics is the only place in which absolute proof is possible and that is only because it works within it's own paradigm with rules of our making. While a most useful and essential tool for calculating and understanding nature, this particular property does not apply to the other scientific disciplines.

 

[jasoncran]

Brokendoll quote- Well, I have agreed to follow the terms, so I leave discussing the validity of the bible for another time and place
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Yes, i'm disappointed that the wimpy moderators won't allow me to correct your wrong impressions of the Bible, maybe they're on your side?
i'm a newcomer to this forum but i won't be staying long if wer're not allowed to say what we like in free open debate and discussion

no, because it will become uncivil, and therefore futile in even discussing, watch your tone,please. pm me if you wish to why we think this or better Rick w.

 

[Waymarker]

I won't be edited, censored or told what I can or can't say, so I'm outta here, please delete my membership, bye

 

[Ed the Ned]

I am a bit rushed fro time today, but would like to make a small point regarding my last post and brokendolls respones to it. I do find your answers to my questions understandable and accept that not everyone has my beliefs. But I feel that there is a presumption that all Christians are born Christians. Their are many Christians on this forum that had difficult and sinful lives before they became Christians. They were not at many presume in doctrinated into the faith from birth. They stand from the viewpoint of having experienced being an athiest, a budhist, a muslim etc.
Believing in Christ and in the Bible and in salvation in the Cross ensures me that ALL will bow down to Christ one day. This may sound hogwash to you, but being in a relationship with Christ and knowing his presence is real. When that day comes, all who have denied Christ WILL weep and their will be ngashing of teeth. Brokendoll I hope in your search to find out who you share the planet with, you find Christ.

 

[Rick W]

Waymarker and Brokendoll,
Take the issue to the One on One Debate forum if you wish. Some rules there may be more relaxed due to the one on one nature of the forum (not lifted) and the fact that all posts must first be approved before becoming publicly viewable for the sake of civil discussion.
But there will not be " a section in which certain rules are lifted".

 

[Brokendoll]

I am a bit rushed fro time today, but would like to make a small point regarding my last post and brokendolls respones to it. I do find your answers to my questions understandable and accept that not everyone has my beliefs. But I feel that there is a presumption that all Christians are born Christians. Their are many Christians on this forum that had difficult and sinful lives before they became Christians. They were not at many presume in doctrinated into the faith from birth. They stand from the viewpoint of having experienced being an athiest, a budhist, a muslim etc.

That may be so on this forum for all I know, but on a global scale, statistically, the vast majority of the people belonging to a religion has parents belonging to the same religion. However, I would like to point out that I have never on my time on these forums used that as an argument in any way.

Believing in Christ and in the Bible and in salvation in the Cross ensures me that ALL will bow down to Christ one day. This may sound hogwash to you, but being in a relationship with Christ and knowing his presence is real. When that day comes, all who have denied Christ WILL weep and their will be ngashing of teeth. Brokendoll I hope in your search to find out who you share the planet with, you find Christ.

And while I realize that you probably mean that in the best way possible, that is of little help to me. Sorry. Still, I hope you see that I am not here merely to cause trouble for anyone, and I am most certainly not here to "convert" Christians.


Cheers

Brokendoll

 

[Brokendoll]

Waymarker and Brokendoll,
Take the issue to the One on One Debate forum if you wish. Some rules there may be more relaxed due to the one on one nature of the forum (not lifted) and the fact that all posts must first be approved before becoming publicly viewable for the sake of civil discussion.
But there will not be " a section in which certain rules are lifted".

Fair enough.
But would a one-on-one allow for instance a subject such as "The Truth of the Bible", as was suggested earlier in this tread? For there to be a discussion of any sort about such a topic, one of the sides would surely have to take the stance that it is not, and might in doing so break some of the rules of the forum.

 

[Rick W]

I've addressed the question of a no-holds-barred section and that seems to have been translated into something else.

Waymarker is participating in another thread:
Is the Bible mythology?

Present your evidence, refrain from derogatory comments/opinions concerning other members and respect the fact you're on a Christian site.
If you want me to give you permission for the wholesale bashing of Christianity that's not going to happen. Remember where you are and show some respect.

 

[Brokendoll]

I've addressed the question of a no-holds-barred section and that seems to have been translated into something else.

Waymarker is participating in another thread:
Is the Bible mythology?

Present your evidence, refrain from derogatory comments/opinions concerning other members and respect the fact you're on a Christian site.
If you want me to give you permission for the wholesale bashing of Christianity that's not going to happen. Remember where you are and show some respect.

I don't really see how I can claim that the bible is fiction without breaking the forum rules, so I suppose I'll have to pass.

 

[Godfrey]

As has been mentioned earlier mathematics is the only place in which absolute proof is possible .

Ah.

Teach me to read the whole thread ...

 

[Brokendoll]

As has been mentioned earlier mathematics is the only place in which absolute proof is possible .

Ah.

Teach me to read the whole thread ...

Common mistake actually. People sometimes state: "Show me the proof" and by that they usually mean something that will make something absolutely universally true beyond any possible doubt neither now or in the distant future. No such thing exists.

Science works by the weight of probability based on the avaliable evidence and when I say we know this or that I mean that we know it as far as we can know anything. An example would be Scientific Theories, which is the most certain knowledge we humans have access to.

Faith and knowledge are two very different concepts. When we say we know something in a scientific context it means that the evidence for that idea and/or against other ideas is way beyond resonable doubt. When someone says that they believe/have faith in something that means that they have decided to believe in that concept without any evidence in favor of its correctness.

In other words, outside of the realm of mathematics we can never become 100% sure of anything. We can get very close, say 99.9999% certain, but it will never reach a full 100. Also, the word "proof" has no place in a scientific discussion (unless it involves math). The word is "evidence", and yes, there is a difference. ;)

 

[TonyB]

I apologize if this was already mentioned, but the other thing that is missing from all other religions, but is present in Christianity (not false christianity) is the statement that there is nothing works based you can do to earn your way to heaven.

In all other religions, there is always something you can do (i.e. meditate enough, do enough good things for others, kill enough of the infidels, chant some words over and over enough times, etc etc...) to be good enough through your own power to gain entrance into that religion's version of "heaven."

In true Christianity, no one is good enough. Ever. Only by relying on the perfectness of one man, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, to cover the debt you owe for breaking the eternal God's laws will you ever get to heaven.

No other religion will tell you you'll never make it to heaven, and then have it's deity provide a way if you only trust him.

 

[Brokendoll]

I apologize if this was already mentioned, but the other thing that is missing from all other religions, but is present in Christianity (not false christianity) is the statement that there is nothing works based you can do to earn your way to heaven.

In all other religions, there is always something you can do (i.e. meditate enough, do enough good things for others, kill enough of the infidels, chant some words over and over enough times, etc etc...) to be good enough through your own power to gain entrance into that religion's version of "heaven."

In true Christianity, no one is good enough. Ever. Only by relying on the perfectness of one man, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, to cover the debt you owe for breaking the eternal God's laws will you ever get to heaven.

No other religion will tell you you'll never make it to heaven, and then have it's deity provide a way if you only trust him.

That may well be so. I have certainly heard other Christians say the same.
I appologize for not being able to discuss this subject as I do my best to follow the forum rules. ;) I will simply state that I am an atheist, as I assume is abundantly clear from my posts.

 

[seekandlisten]

I apologize if this was already mentioned, but the other thing that is missing from all other religions, but is present in Christianity (not false christianity) is the statement that there is nothing works based you can do to earn your way to heaven.

Yet, 'faith without works is dead' so really any argument against works is self defeating.

In all other religions, there is always something you can do (i.e. meditate enough, do enough good things for others, kill enough of the infidels, chant some words over and over enough times, etc etc...) to be good enough through your own power to gain entrance into that religion's version of "heaven."

How is believing that Jesus died for your sins so all you have to do is believe and you can get into 'heaven' any different? I'm sure you'd agree that there are those who claim to be Christians that are not so is 'belief' enough? No, works must be evident or it is nothing more than 'dead' words.

In true Christianity, no one is good enough. Ever. Only by relying on the perfectness of one man, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, to cover the debt you owe for breaking the eternal God's laws will you ever get to heaven.

Kind of sounds like 'passing the buck'. Does that mean all it takes is belief on your part with no 'action'? Also kind of contradicts your previous statement about 'something we can do'.

No other religion will tell you you'll never make it to heaven, and then have it's deity provide a way if you only trust him.

'Only trust him'?? I would say that isn't supported in the bible when looking at my previous point of the bible saying 'faith without works is dead'.

 

[TonyB]

I apologize if this was already mentioned, but the other thing that is missing from all other religions, but is present in Christianity (not false christianity) is the statement that there is nothing works based you can do to earn your way to heaven.

Yet, 'faith without works is dead' so really any argument against works is self defeating.

Not true. We are not saved by works. You seem to know a lot about scripture, yet you neglected to mention this one:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Works are the evidence of the right kind of faith.

People have tighrope walked across Niagra falls before. Let's say that the guy claims he can do it while carrying another person piggy back. He gets a volunteer and he does it. Ok, you've seen him do it solo and with someone else, yet when the man turns to you and asks if you would like to go, you say no thanks.

Do you have faith that he could do it? Sure. You saw it, but you are not willing to allow that faith to result in the action of taking a ride piggy back on a tight rope over Niagra Falls. That is the kind of faith that James is talking about, the kind that results in works.

Perhaps you also missed the verse that show that even the demons believe in him and tremble.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Just believing that Jesus saves and knowing the process isn't enough. You have to be willing to place your eternal destiny in God's hands and allow Him to carry you across that chasm. That is what it means to have faith that is not dead.

In all other religions, there is always something you can do (i.e. meditate enough, do enough good things for others, kill enough of the infidels, chant some words over and over enough times, etc etc...) to be good enough through your own power to gain entrance into that religion's version of "heaven."

How is believing that Jesus died for your sins so all you have to do is believe and you can get into 'heaven' any different? I'm sure you'd agree that there are those who claim to be Christians that are not so is 'belief' enough? No, works must be evident or it is nothing more than 'dead' words.

Belief is enough. Right belief, as explained above will show itself by works. All works, without belief, are worthless.

Isaiah 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

In true Christianity, no one is good enough. Ever. Only by relying on the perfectness of one man, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, to cover the debt you owe for breaking the eternal God's laws will you ever get to heaven.

Kind of sounds like 'passing the buck'. Does that mean all it takes is belief on your part with no 'action'? Also kind of contradicts your previous statement about 'something we can do'.

If you build a car, you would think that you have some authority to tell others what it's limits are and what the best way to operate it would be, wouldn't you?

It's the same way with God. He is the Creator, we are the creation. If he so chooses to do things a certain way, who are to question Him?

Romans 9:20
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

No other religion will tell you you'll never make it to heaven, and then have it's deity provide a way if you only trust him.

'Only trust him'?? I would say that isn't supported in the bible when looking at my previous point of the bible saying 'faith without works is dead'.

I would say you don't understand the WHOLE picture. You seem to have part of it, but you're refusing to see the parts that count.

 

[seekandlisten]

Not true. We are not saved by works.

I never said we were.

You seem to know a lot about scripture, yet you neglected to mention this one:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

I can't say as I neglected it, I just don't see the relevance to my point. I'm aware of the 'saved by grace' concept. I was merely pointing out that works must be evident so to argue against them is really working against yourself. More often then not, too much focus is put on the 'beliefs' and 'works' are forgotten about.

Works are the evidence of the right kind of faith.

True, but I wouldn't limit it to only your faith.

People have tighrope walked across Niagra falls before. Let's say that the guy claims he can do it while carrying another person piggy back. He gets a volunteer and he does it. Ok, you've seen him do it solo and with someone else, yet when the man turns to you and asks if you would like to go, you say no thanks.

Do you have faith that he could do it? Sure. You saw it, but you are not willing to allow that faith to result in the action of taking a ride piggy back on a tight rope over Niagra Falls. That is the kind of faith that James is talking about, the kind that results in works.

I don't quite get how this analogy applies? Sure the guy made it across once but I would have to put my faith in him to do it again, one could take the turn here and make the point that this man is not perfect and the more times he crosses the higher his chance of falling are. This is a problem that has arisen with some putting there faith in the bible or religion rather than in God.

Perhaps you also missed the verse that show that even the demons believe in him and tremble.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Not sure how this is relevent.

Just believing that Jesus saves and knowing the process isn't enough. You have to be willing to place your eternal destiny in God's hands and allow Him to carry you across that chasm. That is what it means to have faith that is not dead.

I could agree with you on this point, but 'works' must still follow right?

Belief is enough. Right belief, as explained above will show itself by works. All works, without belief, are worthless.

And all beliefs without works are worthless as well so belief is not enough. Like I said I don't understand this line of thinking that puts all the emphasis on 'beliefs' and not on 'works'. 'Beliefs' are personal and are wide and varied in this world. 'Works' is the evidence that people can see, the 'light' or 'salt' so to speak.

If you build a car, you would think that you have some authority to tell others what it's limits are and what the best way to operate it would be, wouldn't you?

It's the same way with God. He is the Creator, we are the creation. If he so chooses to do things a certain way, who are to question Him?

I never said anything about questioning God?

I would say you don't understand the WHOLE picture. You seem to have part of it, but you're refusing to see the parts that count.

I try to remain open to correction so if you present me with something I've missed in my travels by all means make your case.

cheers

 

[TonyB]

Not true. We are not saved by works.

I never said we were.

You said, "Yet, 'faith without works is dead' so really any argument against works is self defeating."

If the argument that faith without works is dead is self defeating, then the requirement would be that salvation comes by faith with works, or just by works. In essence, you were indeed saying that we are saved by works or that they are a part of the salvation. Also, you're sig also points to salvation by works. If you didn't mean this and are agreeing with me, then you're throwing up a lot of false indicators.

You seem to know a lot about scripture, yet you neglected to mention this one:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

I can't say as I neglected it, I just don't see the relevance to my point. I'm aware of the 'saved by grace' concept. I was merely pointing out that works must be evident so to argue against them is really working against yourself. More often then not, too much focus is put on the 'beliefs' and 'works' are forgotten about.

Think of it like a stop light. Do you see the electricity flowing through the wires? No, but you see the result of the electricity as it lights up the red light. The red light isn't the electricity, but the presence of electricity is evident because of the light.

The reason Eph 2:8-9 is relevant is because it gives us the reason why salvation cannot be by works, "lest any man should boast." Salvation is by grace through faith so as to level the playing field and give every man an equal chance at getting there. This way noone can say, "I'm saved because I was better at X than you!"

People have tighrope walked across Niagra falls before. Let's say that the guy claims he can do it while carrying another person piggy back. He gets a volunteer and he does it. Ok, you've seen him do it solo and with someone else, yet when the man turns to you and asks if you would like to go, you say no thanks.

Do you have faith that he could do it? Sure. You saw it, but you are not willing to allow that faith to result in the action of taking a ride piggy back on a tight rope over Niagra Falls. That is the kind of faith that James is talking about, the kind that results in works.

I don't quite get how this analogy applies? Sure the guy made it across once but I would have to put my faith in him to do it again, one could take the turn here and make the point that this man is not perfect and the more times he crosses the higher his chance of falling are. This is a problem that has arisen with some putting there faith in the bible or religion rather than in God.

Very true, the man could very well fall off the time he carries you plunging you both to your deaths. However, we aren't dealing with a fallible man in salvation. We are dealing with a perfect being, one that keeps His word every time. One that never fails. One that if He said it, it WILL be done. One who the very essence of His being is truth.

If God were the one carrying the people across the tight rope, He would never fall off. That is the difference between the analogy and reality.

Perhaps you also missed the verse that show that even the demons believe in him and tremble.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Not sure how this is relevent.

It helps illustrate the difference between "just knowing" and "having faith." This verse talks about those people in the above illustration that have seen the man carry another across the tightrope, but are unwilling to entrust their safety to him and take a ride for themselves.

Just knowing that Jesus saves and knowing the process isn't enough. You have to be willing to place your eternal destiny in God's hands and allow Him to carry you across that chasm. That is what it means to have faith that is not dead.

I could agree with you on this point, but 'works' must still follow right?

At this point, I think we'd need to define "works." Take the thief on the cross for example. He didn't have time to get the works part in, right? I wouldn't say so. Before he died, the thief defended Christ in the presence of all those people. I would include that as a work that showed the evidence of his faith.

Another way to look at it is by the instance when the people wanted to know from Jesus what they had to do to do the works of God...

John 6:28-29
Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

If you build a car, you would think that you have some authority to tell others what it's limits are and what the best way to operate it would be, wouldn't you?

It's the same way with God. He is the Creator, we are the creation. If he so chooses to do things a certain way, who are to question Him?

I never said anything about questioning God?

Sorry if I may have misunderstood you. Your argument is that works have to be some part of the salvation process. Ephesians 2:8-9 says it's not. Understanding is not always a requirement, but in those things we don't understand about God and His ways, it is always a requirement to trust that He knows best and will keep is promise to those that all things will work together for good for those that love God and are called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28)

I would say you don't understand the WHOLE picture. You seem to have part of it, but you're refusing to see the parts that count.

I try to remain open to correction so if you present me with something I've missed in my travels by all means make your case.

cheers

[/quote]

I apologize if I've come across arrogant or zealous, I only want to present the truth and sometimes get a little too eager and forceful in my wording...one of my flaws. Just this morning I was reminded to be careful in using superlatives. I'm always careful. :eyebrow

 

[seekandlisten]

Alright, I’m starting to get confused as to what exactly you are putting forth?

You said:

If the argument that faith without works is dead is self defeating, then the requirement would be that salvation comes by faith with works, or just by works. In essence, you were indeed saying that we are saved by works or that they are a part of the salvation. Also, you're sig also points to salvation by works.

First, you’re mixing up my words here a bit. I never said ‘faith without works is dead is self defeating,’ I said an argument against works is self defeating. So I am by no means saying that anyone is saved by works, which I thought I made clear but I guess not. Also my sig doesn’t point to ‘salvation by works’ when taken in the proper context.

Second, your bible says that works are a part of salvation in the statement ‘faith without works is dead.’ Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn’t erase the previous statement but adds to or builds on it.

You said:

The reason Eph 2:8-9 is relevant is because it gives us the reason why salvation cannot be by works, "lest any man should boast."

‘Lest any man should boast’ should give you the indicator that ‘salvation’ cannot come by trying to ‘earn’ your way there but rather ‘works’ are the result of ‘faith’. If you are trying to ‘earn’ your way into ‘heaven’ you will never get there because you are still filled with ‘selfish desires.’ Have you heard of the term ‘white-washed tomb?’ That is what I think of in regards to ‘faith without works is dead.’