Conspicuous absence

[seekandlisten]

Now, back to my original point. You had originally posted this:

I apologize if this was already mentioned, but the other thing that is missing from all other religions, but is present in Christianity (not false christianity) is the statement that there is nothing works based you can do to earn your way to heaven.

Your point here seems to be that the statement ‘that there is nothing works based you can do to earn your way to heaven’ is the basis for an argument against other religions.

I then said:

Yet, 'faith without works is dead' so really any argument against works is self defeating.

My point being that it is self-defeating to use ‘works’ as the basis for an argument against other religions as ‘works’ are a part of Christianities ‘path to salvation' too. On top of that you are misrepresenting other religions by generalizing them all as having something ‘works based’ that gets them into ‘heaven.’ That is a false statement. While I’m sure there are some religions that promote ‘self’, most teach about how to remove ‘worldly desires’ and a looking ‘inward’ to make oneself a better person. More or less summed up a ‘dying to one’s self’. Still other religions teach quite similar teachings to Christianity. So my argument is against your using ‘works’ as a means of discrediting other religions.

Are we on the same page now? If you wish to proceed from here I’m all ears.

cheers

 

[TonyB]

My point being that it is self-defeating to use ‘works’ as the basis for an argument against other religions

Works in other religions are a distinguishing factor between them and the only true path to God.

‘works’ are a part of Christianities ‘path to salvation' too.

That is not the case at all. The "path to salvation" ends when you put your faith (believe) in Christ and what He did for you on the cross. At that point, you are "born again" as the Bible says, by a work of the Holy Spirit in regenerating your dead spirit, into a living one.

On top of that you are misrepresenting other religions by generalizing them all as having something ‘works based’ that gets them into ‘heaven.’

Am I? I just try to call it like I see it. It is entirely possible I haven't heard of a specific religion yet.

That is a false statement.

Is it? Show me one religion where it is impossible to get to "god" unless it's "god" does something first.

While I’m sure there are some religions that promote ‘self’, most teach about how to remove ‘worldly desires’ and a looking ‘inward’ to make oneself a better person. More or less summed up a ‘dying to one’s self’. Still other religions teach quite similar teachings to Christianity. So my argument is against your using ‘works’ as a means of discrediting other religions.

You're still working off the assumption that works are required to be saved. Until you understand that isn't the case according to the Bible, we're not going to get anywhere in this discussion. So, I would ask you as well to show me where in the Bible it says what work you have to accomplish to be saved.

 

[seekandlisten]

Works in other religions are a distinguishing factor between them and the only true path to God.

How?? What religion?? On what basis?? You're making a statement generalizing all other religions except Christianity without making a case as to how this is the 'factor'??

That is not the case at all. The "path to salvation" ends when you put your faith (believe) in Christ and what He did for you on the cross. At that point, you are "born again" as the Bible says, by a work of the Holy Spirit in regenerating your dead spirit, into a living one.

The 'path to salvation' starts, not ends, when you put your faith in Christ. 'Faith without works is dead'.

On top of that you are misrepresenting other religions by generalizing them all as having something ‘works based’ that gets them into ‘heaven.’

Am I? I just try to call it like I see it. It is entirely possible I haven't heard of a specific religion yet.

You also haven't named a religion to make your case against so in a generalization of all religions you are misrepresenting them or at least misunderstanding some.

That is a false statement.

Is it? Show me one religion where it is impossible to get to "god" unless it's "god" does something first.

I don't understand the question and how it relates to 'you are misrepresenting other religions by generalizing them all as having something ‘works based’ that gets them into ‘heaven.’ To say all other religions have something 'work-based' that gets them into heaven is a false statement.

While I’m sure there are some religions that promote ‘self’, most teach about how to remove ‘worldly desires’ and a looking ‘inward’ to make oneself a better person. More or less summed up a ‘dying to one’s self’. Still other religions teach quite similar teachings to Christianity. So my argument is against your using ‘works’ as a means of discrediting other religions.

You're still working off the assumption that works are required to be saved. Until you understand that isn't the case according to the Bible, we're not going to get anywhere in this discussion. So, I would ask you as well to show me where in the Bible it says what work you have to accomplish to be saved.

'FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD'. That is where the bible says 'works' are a part of it. You can believe all the 'right stuff' but if all you do with that knowledge is tell others what to 'believe' without any works being evident(loving your neighbor, feeding the poor, forgiving those who do wrong against you, putting others first, etc) your 'faith' means nothing. I have stated many times that one is not saved by 'works' in this thread so you have to get past that line of thinking that I'm saying this is the case. You also have to realize that 'works' ARE required to be 'saved'.

 

[TonyB]

Works in other religions are a distinguishing factor between them and the only true path to God.

How?? What religion?? On what basis?? You're making a statement generalizing all other religions except Christianity without making a case as to how this is the 'factor'??

For muslims, the Koran says believe in Allah and his prophet, and obey. Obedience is were the works come in.

For Buddhism, following the teachings, which include stuff you must do, will get you to Nirvana.

For Hinduism, do the right stuff to escape the cycle of birth, death, reincarnation.

For Scientology, practice of their religious services.

There are a few examples for you.

The 'path to salvation' starts, not ends, when you put your faith in Christ. 'Faith without works is dead'.

The Bible says that we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, and not of works. Salvation is granted once we put our faith in Christ. I'll get to dead faith in a minute.

That is a false statement.

Is it? Show me one religion where it is impossible to get to "god" unless it's "god" does something first.

I don't understand the question and how it relates to 'you are misrepresenting other religions by generalizing them all as having something ‘works based’ that gets them into ‘heaven.’ To say all other religions have something 'work-based' that gets them into heaven is a false statement.

What's not to understand? I asked that you show me 1 religion that isn't works salvation based.

You're still working off the assumption that works are required to be saved. Until you understand that isn't the case according to the Bible, we're not going to get anywhere in this discussion. So, I would ask you as well to show me where in the Bible it says what work you have to accomplish to be saved.

'FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD'. That is where the bible says 'works' are a part of it.

No, it doesn't. What it's saying is that if a person claims to have faith and doesn't exhibit it by good works, then they don't really have faith. It's not saying they have a different kind of faith or are only half way there. If they don't have works, they don't have faith at all. Back to the red light example, (for the sake of argument) if the light isn't on, there is no electricity to it. The electricity is not the light, but it causes the light to shine. In the same way, if a person is not saved, there will be no works (or falsely motivated works) showing. Salvation is not the works, but are caused by salvation.

I have stated many times that one is not saved by 'works' in this thread so you must get past that line of thinking.

If that's the case, then you are contradicting yourself, because your sig says otherwise. No offense, but you'll have to present better evidence than your word to convince me that my line of thinking is wrong and I should change it. It'll have to be good too. Better than the whole council of God.

You must also realize that 'works' ARE required to be 'saved'.

And here you contradict yourself again. You said that you've stated many times that salvation is not by works. Now you're saying it is.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself in saying that salvation is not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and then saying that faith without works is dead (James 2:20). Put simply, a dead faith is no faith at all. A person who says they have faith and doesn't exhibit it through works is no Christian at all. In the same way, you can't put electricity through a good light bulb and not get light. What you keep trying to do is put the cart before the horse. In the case of the light bulb, light is not required for electricity, but electricity is required for light. Works are not required for salvation, but salvation is required for works (real works, acceptable before God; not false works motivated by selfishness).

 

[seekandlisten]

For muslims, the Koran says believe in Allah and his prophet, and obey. Obedience is were the works come in.

How is this different from Christianity? If you looked into Islam it doesn't teach that you can 'fake' your works and reach 'salvation.'

For Buddhism, following the teachings, which include stuff you must do, will get you to Nirvana.

Yet you can't do them with selfish motives so again you can't 'fake' your way to Nirvana based on works. Also it would be pretty hard for Buddha to point to Jesus as the way to 'salvation' as Jesus didn't exist yet. It is interesting that there is reference to a 'Holy One' who was to come in Buddhist writings. (You do know that Buddha preceded Jesus by about 500 years right?)

For Hinduism, do the right stuff to escape the cycle of birth, death, reincarnation.

Is this any difference than following Jesus' commandments? Hindu's don't teach that works will get you there. It's still a belief in one God, even a triune God at that.

For Scientology, practice of their religious services.

I'm unfamiliar with this religion so I have no comment.

Also note that I am only talking about 'works-based salvation' not the entire beliefs of any one religion as I don't subscribe to these religions so I'm not going to take a position of defending them. I will however promote understanding other religions.

What's not to understand? I asked that you show me 1 religion that isn't works salvation based.

Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Islam, Mormons, JW's, Roman Catholics, Christianity, Sikhism, for starters.

I have stated many times that one is not saved by 'works' in this thread so you must get past that line of thinking.

If that's the case, then you are contradicting yourself, because your sig says otherwise. No offense, but you'll have to present better evidence than your word to convince me that my line of thinking is wrong and I should change it. It'll have to be good too. Better than the whole council of God.

Do some reading in this thread the question was already asked and answered in regards to my sig.

The quote I use in my sig is because, what is put forth by it is what is missing in most religions today, 'action' and a looking 'inward' rather than 'outward' in judgement.

To put it in it's simplest terms, we need to get off our butts and start 'walking the walk'. Like Joan of Arc once said, 'act, and God will act' so we need to do our part. It's more than simply saying Jesus did all the work for us on the cross and all we have to do is say a little prayer and we are 'saved' and free to go off and judge others. 'Faith without works' is dead.

Buddha also never taught 'salvation' and why would he, 'salvation' didn't come until Jesus died on the cross right? So his quote would not be saying that 'works' bring someone to 'salvation'. It does however mean that it takes some 'work' on your part as well and we can't just 'pass the buck' off on Jesus.

I'll address the rest of your post in my next post.

cheers

 

[seekandlisten]

The 'path to salvation' starts, not ends, when you put your faith in Christ. 'Faith without works is dead'.

The Bible says that we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, and not of works. Salvation is granted once we put our faith in Christ. I'll get to dead faith in a minute.

I don’t believe in ‘once saved, always saved’ or the fact that one is ‘saved’ by saying a prayer and believing in a list of ‘rules’ so we are probably going to have some disagreements in this respect. In regards to the teachings of the bible I believe one is ‘saved’ when they stand before ‘God’ and receive their ‘reward’ based on how they lived their lives, what ‘works’ they did as a result of their faith.

'FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD'. That is where the bible says 'works' are a part of it.

No, it doesn't. What it's saying is that if a person claims to have faith and doesn't exhibit it by good works, then they don't really have faith. It's not saying they have a different kind of faith or are only half way there. If they don't have works, they don't have faith at all. Back to the red light example, (for the sake of argument) if the light isn't on, there is no electricity to it. The electricity is not the light, but it causes the light to shine. In the same way, if a person is not saved, there will be no works (or falsely motivated works) showing. Salvation is not the works, but are caused by salvation.

How about if I worded it this way, ‘works’ are the ‘evidence’ of faith. They still must be there, but one must consider the ‘whole picture.’ Faith won’t save you on it’s own, it’s like washing the outside of the cup, and on the flip side, ‘works’ won’t ‘save’ you either as ‘works’ are judged by the ‘motives’.

You must also realize that 'works' ARE required to be 'saved'.

And here you contradict yourself again. You said that you've stated many times that salvation is not by works. Now you're saying it is.

And that is what happens when you quote me out of context. Look at everything I’ve written and take it into consideration before coming to the conclusion. The same goes for the bible.

cheers

 

[jasoncran]

seekandlisten, how many paths to the lord are there?

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten, how many paths to the lord are there?

One.

 

[micaela]

You're forgetting something mate, only Jesus did stuff like this..-

Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
<snipped list of miracles>
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death.

You can find miracles in any religion, so that doesn't constitute an argument either. Also, the only source we have for these miracles is the Bible, which is the same for the other religions, i.e. that the only source for their miracles are their holy books.

Does any other religion have a God that sent a savior who died to save the world from it's sins? And whoever believes in him will have EVERLASTING life?..

 

[Rick W]

Does any other religion have a God that sent a savior who died to save the world from it's sins? And whoever believes in him will have EVERLASTING life?..

Could go a step further.
Instead of man becoming worthy to go to God, God came to man because man is not worthy to go to God.

 

[micaela]

Death is a a result of sin... Who will save us from the two? Only Jesus can, surely you cannot forgive your own sins and save yourself from death. For those who do not believe, how could you not? How can human life just be a coincidence? That we are able to do the unimaginable, like travel to outer space! That we have the capacity to feel the feeling of love? How is that all a coincidence? How can this whole world be a coincidence? How can you not see that there is something bigger than us and bigger than our minds could even fathom that has set this whole world into affect? But we evolved from monkeys?! :crazy nonsense. Darwin couldn't even prove that, nor any of the greatest scientific minds. How is the earth set in the exact perfect place, not too close and not too far away from the sun so life can exist? How can you think this is all a coincidence?

 

[jasoncran]

seekandlisten, how many paths to the lord are there?

One.

then islam cant be it or can it be? or is it buddism, or hinduism? or christianity? or the redemptive work on the cross?

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten, how many paths to the lord are there?

One.

then islam cant be it or can it be? or is it buddism, or hinduism? or christianity? or the redemptive work on the cross?

This is where we will have differing points of view. Religion is not the 'path' to God. It can be a 'guide' but when you make it the 'path' who are you putting your 'faith' in?

 

[TonyB]

Let's look at Islam.

Islam for example, which one might say comes close to Christianity (but in reality it is far from it) due to Muslims claiming the same ancestors as the Jews; in Sura 19 it says that everyone goes to hell. All person's works are weighed and the better you did at guarding against evil, the quicker you get out. Unless you die as a martyr, then you get a free ride to heaven Sura 3.

Islam was in your list of non-works based religions. For a much better understanding, look at this:
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements ... tion-works

For a couple others, you can check this out and click the links on Buddhism and Hinduism.
http://www.evangelical.us/salvation.html

seekandlisten, looks like we're not going to get anywhere with this. Seems like I'm trying to discuss ideas and you're trying to discuss words.

I want to understand where you're coming from, I'll ask you this; do you believe you're a Christian, and what makes you one?

 

[seekandlisten]

Let's look at Islam.

Islam for example, which one might say comes close to Christianity (but in reality it is far from it) due to Muslims claiming the same ancestors as the Jews; in Sura 19 it says that everyone goes to hell. All person's works are weighed and the better you did at guarding against evil, the quicker you get out. Unless you die as a martyr, then you get a free ride to heaven Sura 3.

Like I pointed out earlier, I don't 'believe' in Islam or in any religion for that matter. For instance, the Qur'an was compiled after Muhammed died. Muhammed was illiterate so I would doubt he 'wrote' much of anything so it would be safe to assume that most of the Qur'an is the works of his followers and notes taken from his teachings. There are many things that I don't agree with in the beliefs of Islam so I would not promote that Islam is the 'right religion' but that it is yet another religion of man in attempt to describe the 'right way' to God. Muslims say that their's is the only true religion yet Muhammed taught this:

Those who believe,

And those who are Jews,

And Christians,and Sabians

Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day,

And work righteousness,

Shall have their reward with their Lord;

On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

(Qur'an 2:62)

One would think that Muhammed himself didn't believe in separation but rather a joining of all who 'believe' in God regardless of religion. But, like most religions, the followers decide on what they figure he meant and it becomes 'dogma'.

Also, I won't quote the whole passage, but check out Genesis 21. Here is verse 13, "I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."

What do you think it is referring to here?

Islam was in your list of non-works based religions. For a much better understanding, look at this:
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements ... tion-works

For a couple others, you can check this out and click the links on Buddhism and Hinduism.
http://www.evangelical.us/salvation.html

As for your links, I'm not surprised that at a 'Christian bias' site they would agree with you. You must look at both sides. Check out these links if you are interested.

http://www.ark-of-salvation.org/islam_muhammad.htm

http://www.ark-of-salvation.org/islam_jihad.htm

http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/t ... _verse.htm

http://buddhanet.net/ebooks_g.htm

seekandlisten, looks like we're not going to get anywhere with this. Seems like I'm trying to discuss ideas and you're trying to discuss words.

Sorry, but the only idea I'm seeing you present is that all religions that aren't Christianity are wrong and that 'works' are not necessary in Christianity. Both statements I disagree with. If you want to discuss an idea, present me with one that is supported and isn't based on merely opinion.

I understand we are not going to agree on everything but when it comes down to determining 'facts' and 'opinion' we need to recognize that point. I try to respect the beliefs of others but if you want to misrepresent a whole religion based on your religion there is little basis to do so other than personal opinion. I could just as easily make an argument against Christianity being a 'false religion' but as this is a Christian site I would think I would violate some rules. I am merely trying to help you understand a little about other religions.

Personally, I disagree with 'religion' in general so to try and explain that is very complicated. I'm more than happy to discuss an idea with you but lets recognize what's merely 'opinion' and what is 'truth' that can be backed up with 'observable' evidence.

cheers

 

[seekandlisten]

I want to understand where you're coming from, I'll ask you this; do you believe you're a Christian, and what makes you one?

Sorry, I missed this question in my other post. I believe there is a 'God'. I believe there is 'truth' in the bible.

I tend to avoid the term 'Christian' as taking a look around at whats associated with the term I don't want to have to defend myself against the 'wrongs' of those claiming to be 'Christians'. Also, most Christians would claim me to be a 'heretic' or 'blasphemer' among the names I've been called so I can't really lump myself in with them now can I. I also don't believe in the trinity which excludes me from the majority of Christianity. I believe 'actions speak louder than words.' It's safe to say that everyone in Canada and the US has heard of 'God' or Jesus in some way or another so to preach 'Who' he is and what this means is kind of pointless especially with the history of the 'church' and it's 'witness.'

I look at it this way. Have you ever seen the movie Pay It Forward? I believe in that 'concept' as being far more useful than just 'words' and 'beliefs'. This also goes with the 'faith without works' argument. 1 person is kind to 3 people, 3 people are kind to 9 people, and so it spreads. Jesus always taught that the kingdom started 'small'. If most of the people you try to share your faith with 'scoff' at the 'idea' are you really doing any good? You can argue that they don't know the 'truth' yet from the outside looking in, Christianity is very hypocritical. (the argument against this is that 'those people' aren't really Christians, yet the 'world' doesn't make that comparison)

I believe in Jesus' 2 commandments as the most important part of the bible. I also believe in Karma, for your religion it is the equivalent of 'reaping what you sow.'

I believe in 'truth' no matter where it is found. Truth is truth, if it is not it will be revealed. God told us to recognize what is in front of us and the rest will be revealed. So when it comes to speculation I hold a lot of skepticism. Above all, I believe in religious freedom. You have the right to practice your religion and I can practice my beliefs. When you start infringing on my rights by 'asserting' your religion I will disagree.

Does that help at all? I realize this doesn't cover everything but in all honesty it's almost easier to explain what I don't believe over what I do believe. Anyways, if you have a question fire away.

Cheers

(edited for clarity)

 

[jasoncran]

then any "path" you decide to use while seeking the Lord is ok for you. seekandlisten

if so reconcile this.
jesus christ

" i am the way, the truth, the life"

the hebrew doesnt acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God. there fore that are seeking him. as he is the only way and must be believed on, not any other.

 

[seekandlisten]

then any "path" you decide to use while seeking the Lord is ok for you. seekandlisten

It's not really something to decide. Is the 'path to salvation' something to be picked off a menu?

if so reconcile this.
jesus christ

" i am the way, the truth, the life"

I would have to say this passage would mean that Jesus is 'the way, the truth, and the life', correct? Does that somehow equate to religion being 'the way, the truth, and the life?'

the hebrew doesnt acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God. there fore that are seeking him. as he is the only way and must be believed on, not any other.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

 

[jasoncran]

you seem to to say that the muslim, the jew and others have some truths . i want to know if you think that how they can have any means of getting one to heaven, if jesus is the only way, and islam and the jew deny does one say that they are heaven bound or christ is a liar.

satan acknowledges god as real, but i dont go to him to learn about the lord.

 

[seekandlisten]

you seem to to say that the muslim, the jew and others have some truths . i want to know if you think that how they can have any means of getting one to heaven, if jesus is the only way, and islam and the jew deny does one say that they are heaven bound or christ is a liar.

Is it all about getting one into heaven?

Here is the thing jason, if you found what you are looking for in Christianity then good for you, I'm not saying one has to study every religion to find the 'truth'. Everyone is free to believe in 'their God', but what you do with that faith is where your 'fruit' is determined.

As far as 'getting one to heaven', that is part of many different religions and they all have their take on this 'way'. You say 'Jesus is the way' but that does not automatically mean that Christianity is the way, or Islam is the way, it simply means Jesus is the 'way'. How you interpret that is your business. If your heart is sincere, then whether you choose to be a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikhist, etc. doesn't matter, in my opinion anyways. Jesus didn't discriminate, Muhammed didn't discriminate, Buddha didn't discriminate, so where did the separation come from? The whole 'my religion is better than your religion' came with the followers of each religion that couldn't agree with each other.

I not sure who said this about God but it's something interesting to think about.
"On whatsoever road a man approaches Me, on that road do I welcome him, for all roads are Mine."

satan acknowledges god as real, but i dont go to him to learn about the lord.

I wouldn't expect you too. Why would you go to anyone but the source?