Constantine - Mithraism: an influence on Christianity or not

[Theophilus]

I am very troubled by the fact that so many "Christians" have such a low view of the early church.
The same people that protected the Holy Scriptures are being accused of LETTING paganism be fused into their faith. The same people who were tortured because the would not sacrifice to pagan gods, simply let the Emperor hand them new pagan traditions. What nonsense! The same bishops at the first council lived through persecution. Its hard to be so cavalier about your faith and doctrine when you have been tortured and witnessed you brothers and sisters being killed for it.
If you can not trust the early church to keep the faith of the Apostles, how can you trust them to keep the letters of the Apostles. Who do you think arranged the canon of Scripture?

For those who think mithraism influenced christianity read this site.
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html

 

[SputnikBoy]

I really don't know about anything else that Constantine might have done while under the influence of Mithraism, but it's a historical fact that he initiated a new Sabbath. Isn't that one deed enough to arouse our suspicions?

 

[cubedbee]

I really don't know about anything else that Constantine might have done while under the influence of Mithraism, but it's a historical fact that he initiated a new Sabbath. Isn't that one deed enough to arouse our suspicions?

No, it's a historical fact that he made Sunday a day of rest of the Roman empire. However, it is also a historical fact that Christians had been worshipping on Sunday since at least the time of Hadrian, 200 years before Constantine.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I really don't know about anything else that Constantine might have done while under the influence of Mithraism, but it's a historical fact that he initiated a new Sabbath. Isn't that one deed enough to arouse our suspicions?

In point of fact, Constantine simply allowed Christians to observe what they already did, without having to work on kyriaki (Lord's Day). He used the language 'venerable day of the sun' because that's what that day was known as to him and his pagan subjects.

This was not a "new sabbath."

 

[Remember]

As per the poll, Christ's church had no and still has no practice based in paganism. Many "religions/denominations" (for lack of better words) practice man-made habits/rituals derived from paganism, some habits from OT living and some from the wanton desire to hold power over others. And many are in process to this day. :

For it is written:

Matt 15:7-14

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men .10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Thus saith the Lord.

Simple lesson: don't follow the doctrines of men mistakenly (blindly) as the doctrine of Christ, what ever form they take. Read the Bible and know for yourself. (2 Tim 2:15) :D

An observation.

 

[Quath]

No, it's a historical fact that he made Sunday a day of rest of the Roman empire. However, it is also a historical fact that Christians had been worshipping on Sunday since at least the time of Hadrian, 200 years before Constantine.

From what I have seen it was mixed. Early Christians sometimes treated Saturday and Sunday as religious holidays. The Council of Laodicea put a stop to this in 365 C.E.

Since God was clear that Saturday was to be the Holy Day (one of the Big Ten and God wanted people that violated this killed), it seems odd that it should switch. I think this was because Christianity was mostly gentile Christianity and the Jewish Christians had been persecuted. Gentile Christianity looked pagan enough so the Romans did not mind it as much as the Christianitys closer to Judiasm.

So if Christianity had not had a more pagan variation, then the whole religion may have been wiped out by the Romans.

Quath

 

[SputnikBoy]

I really don't know about anything else that Constantine might have done while under the influence of Mithraism, but it's a historical fact that he initiated a new Sabbath. Isn't that one deed enough to arouse our suspicions?

In point of fact, Constantine simply allowed Christians to observe what they already did, without having to work on kyriaki (Lord's Day). He used the language 'venerable day of the sun' because that's what that day was known as to him and his pagan subjects.

This was not a "new sabbath."

Sputnik: There is little doubt that a command from Constantine SPAWNED a "new sabbath". Whether Christians 'kept' Sunday prior to Constantine's mandate or not, 'Sunday' became the OFFICIAL holy day for Christians from then on. Check your dictionary. Though not inspired, the dictionary defines what Sunday is to Christians. Please, anyone, check the word "Sabbath" in your dictionaries and get back to me.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I really don't know about anything else that Constantine might have done while under the influence of Mithraism, but it's a historical fact that he initiated a new Sabbath. Isn't that one deed enough to arouse our suspicions?

In point of fact, Constantine simply allowed Christians to observe what they already did, without having to work on kyriaki (Lord's Day). He used the language 'venerable day of the sun' because that's what that day was known as to him and his pagan subjects.

This was not a "new sabbath."

Sputnik: There is little doubt that a command from Constantine SPAWNED a "new sabbath". Whether Christians 'kept' Sunday prior to Constantine's mandate or not, 'Sunday' became the OFFICIAL holy day for Christians from then on. Check your dictionary. Though not inspired, the dictionary defines what Sunday is to Christians. Please, anyone, check the word "Sabbath" in your dictionaries and get back to me.

Interesting: you use "sabbath" in quotes, so as to indicate a typology or connotation, then ask for a dictionary defnition, so as to refer to the denotation. Sabbath/Sabbaton simply means seven. Are you insinuating that sabbath was a term used only to refer to the seventh day of the week in the Old testament? Please address this question specifically and with candor.

Bottom line is that if the Church moved the Sabbath to Sunday in honor of the resurrection, so what? The Church also dscontinued circumcision.

 

[PHIL121]

Well, I'm voting a reluctant "yes", even though "early Church" is somewhat vague.

We KNOW Christmas was placed where it was to attract pagans to the Faith.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Well, I'm voting a reluctant "yes", even though "early Church" is somewhat vague.

We KNOW Christmas was placed where it was to attract pagans to the Faith.

Sputnik: Not to mention the real 'biggie' ...Easter. This pagan event, of course, coincides with Jesus' death and resurrection.

 

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":83bcf]

I really don't know about anything else that Constantine might have done while under the influence of Mithraism, but it's a historical fact that he initiated a new Sabbath. Isn't that one deed enough to arouse our suspicions?

In point of fact, Constantine simply allowed Christians to observe what they already did, without having to work on kyriaki (Lord's Day). He used the language 'venerable day of the sun' because that's what that day was known as to him and his pagan subjects.

This was not a "new sabbath."

Sputnik: There is little doubt that a command from Constantine SPAWNED a "new sabbath". Whether Christians 'kept' Sunday prior to Constantine's mandate or not, 'Sunday' became the OFFICIAL holy day for Christians from then on. Check your dictionary. Though not inspired, the dictionary defines what Sunday is to Christians. Please, anyone, check the word "Sabbath" in your dictionaries and get back to me.

OC: Interesting: you use "sabbath" in quotes, so as to indicate a typology or connotation, then ask for a dictionary defnition, so as to refer to the denotation.

Sputnik: Huh? What? Um ...speaking of dictionaries ...! Anyway, don’t let my having used “Sabbath†in quotes (there, I’ve done it again) bother you too much. It had nothing to do with typologies or connotations or denotations :roll: ...it was used in quotes merely to emphasize the word to be checked. I'll just add, a positive by-product of debating these issues with you, OC, has been that my vocabulary has sure expanded! :turn-l:


OC: Sabbath/Sabbaton simply means seven. Are you insinuating that sabbath was a term used only to refer to the seventh day of the week in the Old testament? Please address this question specifically and with candor.

Sputnik: I'm not sure where you're coming from here, OC, since we both know of the temporary ceremonial sabbaths of the OT and the eternal weekly Sabbath that both you and your Church (EO) acknowledge. By the way, "seventh" (no typologies, connotations, or denotations intended) is related to 'time' ...1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th ...and so on. 'Shabath' is the word that means to repose, desist from exertion, cessation from ...etc. This word also relates to 'rested' as in Genesis 2:2. It all ties in with the specific Sabbath that we're discussing (that of the 4th-commandment) on this thread.

So, specifically and candidly ...while the OT not only uses 'Sabbath' to refer to the seventh-day of the week, the 7th-Day Sabbath IS the topic of issue here and NOT the temporary ceremonial sabbaths. We KNOW the difference between the two and we also know WHY and TO WHOM they were given. Constantine initiated a change of the holy day of the weekly cycle, NOT the annual sabbaths.

OC: Bottom line is that if the Church moved the Sabbath to Sunday in honor of the resurrection, so what? The Church also discontinued circumcision.[/quote:83bcf]

Sputnik: A BIG so-what! You're giving the Church the same authority as God! Do I have to continually draw attention to the fact that both you and your Church (EO) honor the 7th-day Sabbath? That you also worship on Sunday is not a particular issue to me and also none of my business, other than the fact that I DO see it as a 'sort of' compromise. However . . . . . .

As mentioned, the dictionary is not an inspired book but it DOES accurately define the fact that Sunday IS the Christian 'Sabbath' ...there again with the quotes, but for an especially good reason since Sunday is actually NOT the Sabbath of the Bible. Sunday is the day that Constantine mandated as 'the Sabbath' from then on and it had NOTHING to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And, this is one of the issues (Constantine and Mithraism) that is being debated on this particular thread.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Re: Constantine - Mithraism: an influence on Christianity or

I am very troubled by the fact that so many "Christians" have such a low view of the early church.
The same people that protected the Holy Scriptures are being accused of LETTING paganism be fused into their faith. The same people who were tortured because the would not sacrifice to pagan gods, simply let the Emperor hand them new pagan traditions. What nonsense! The same bishops at the first council lived through persecution. Its hard to be so cavalier about your faith and doctrine when you have been tortured and witnessed you brothers and sisters being killed for it.
If you can not trust the early church to keep the faith of the Apostles, how can you trust them to keep the letters of the Apostles. Who do you think arranged the canon of Scripture?

For those who think mithraism influenced christianity read this site.
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html

Let not your heart be trouble brother for these days were told to us. Those that refuse to recognize the past are doomed to repeat it thus I would expect the heterodox world to return to pre Constantine days when Christians were fed to wild beasts, sawn usunder, beheaded, burned to death, and tortured for their confession of Jesus Christ and His Church. Soon the heterodox world will go mad in their ecumenical "cant we all just get along" syphillis.

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

 

[Orthodoxy]

As per the poll, Christ's church had no and still has no practice based in paganism. Many "religions/denominations" (for lack of better words) practice man-made habits/rituals derived from paganism, some habits from OT living and some from the wanton desire to hold power over others. And many are in process to this day. :

For it is written:

Matt 15:7-14

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men .10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Thus saith the Lord.

Simple lesson: don't follow the doctrines of men mistakenly (blindly) as the doctrine of Christ, what ever form they take. Read the Bible and know for yourself. (2 Tim 2:15) :D

An observation.

Each man in the heterodox faith knows he is his own pope.

Do you mean habit/rituals like sitting in an auditorium "church" with a stage full of rock and roll gitars and drums singing "gospel hymns" of the 1900 century while the crowd on cue stands and sits with hands raised before listening to a "pastor" giving his personal opine on what the bible states just before paying the "tithe" to the pastor for his wonderful sermon? Or the weekly tradition "wednesday bible study"? Those weekly habits/rituals? Let us not also forget that age ol' traditions of "turning to greet your neighbor"! Are donuts in the "fellowship hall" tradition or habit/ritual?

Thank God Orthodox Christian Holy Tradition transends these habits/rituals and is merely "The House of Prayer" Jesus talked about in Matthew 21:13, Mark 11:17, Luke 19:46.

Orthodoxy