Contradictions and the soul of man

[smaller]

I know. You clarified your original claim later on. But the point remains, that the original claim you made was fallacious with respect to the Biblical Text itself. That was my very specific point, yet a relevant one. And I didn't use fallacious logic to prove my point as Oz said.

Your counter was totally fallacious. God/The Trinity is NOT a created thing/power or any "thing" else. Comparing or equating The Creator to the created is a foul of basic christian theology.

That's all I needed to prove. You said "zero exceptions", I proved otherwise. Poof.

In your mind, a mistake was fostered. Nothing more than that.

Here is your reasoning: The Creator = the created. Therefore there is the exception that God didn't create all things.

Yes, that is a mistake on your part. Proof and poof of nothing but an error in theological reasoning.

If you would have said; 'God created all things, zero exceptions, other than things not created by God like The Son or The Holy Spirit', I probably would not have replied to begin with. But that's not the claim you originally made, that I replied to.

See the above. It's an error in reasoning.

We both agree that God did not create The Son or The Holy Spirit.

THEN why point to God/The Trinity and say God didn't create all things, by using The Creator as an exception? It makes no sense whatsoever.

But there are still problems with the point you are/were trying to make using those verses (Col 1:16,Rev 4:11). One is the first point I made; neither verse actually says "things" to begin with in the manuscripts. The word "things" is inserted to make it read better in English translations. Which leads to the second problem; Is "evil" a created "thing" that God made or not??? Those verses certainly do not say it is. That was my other point.

I specifically pointed out that God did create all powers, and by Him all things consist, Col. 1:16-17, and that evil is in fact a power, Hab. 2:9. Just as "death" is a power, Heb. 2:14, just as "the grave" is a power, Hos. 13:14. God assuredly "controls" all powers by reason of Divine Superiority and USES/DEPLOYS these powers as He So Chooses. There is more than ample scriptural evidence to show God using and deploying these "powers."

1 Samuel 2:6
The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

 

[chessman]

In your mind, a mistake was fostered. Nothing more than that.

Your original claim/post was mistaken.

Here is your reasoning: The Creator = the created.

No it's not. I'll speak for myself and my reasoning. You are mistaken. I did not say nor do I believe that "The Creator = the created".

Therefore there is the exception that God didn't create all things.

That's correct. God did not create all things. Yet you claimed:

God made "all things." Col. 1:16. Rev. 4:11. There are zero exceptions.

When you tag verses to a claim you are making, they should actually support your claim. These don't support your claim.

 

[smaller]

Your original claim/post was mistaken.

No it's not. I'll speak for myself and my reasoning. You are mistaken. I did not say nor do I believe that "The Creator = the created".

That's correct. God did not create all things. Yet you claimed:
When you tag verses to a claim you are making, they should actually support your claim. These don't support your claim.

Other than the Creator, you might start listing your other exceptions then because I didn't see any from your end. I don't make "any" exceptions to "all things." So, yes, that sight I align from scriptures.

Then we can compare your "exception" claims to the facts of John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 1:3, Rev. 4:12 and the many other sciptures that say the same.

Declarative victories aren't worth much without the scriptural powder to back them up.

 

[OzSpen]

First of all though, "Hades” which is the Greek term used to translate the Hebrew term Sheol, basically refers to the grave or the abode of the dead and clearly the parable of the rich man and Lazarus describes this intermediate state as being a place of consciousness. But sheol during the Old Testament period also describes a place devoid of consciousness, for example Ecclesiastes 9:5, Ecclesiastes 9:10, psalms 88:12 NIV. In other words the intermediate state proceeding the resurrection has more than one meaning.

freewill,

Those who know Hebrew and Greek disagree with you.

According to OT Hebrew commentators, Keil & Delitzsch, ‘Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death’ (n d:338).

One of the leading exegetical Greek word studies edited by Colin Brown states: ‘In the LXX [Septuagint] hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb sheol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is a land of darkness, in which God is not remembered (Job 10:21f; 26:5; Ps. 6:5; 30:9 [LXX 29:9]; 115:17 [LXX 113:25]; Prov. 1;12; 27:20; Isa. 5:14)’ (Brown 1976:206).

So in the LXX, hades is a Greek translation of the Hebrew, sheol.

There is a further explanation of hades and sheol in my articles,

• Do evil doers experience eternal destruction or annihilation at death?;
• Hell in the Bible;
• Where will unbelievers go at death?

Oz

Works consulted
Brown, C (ed) 1976. The new international dictionary of New Testament theology, vol 2. Exeter: The Paternoster Press.

Keil, C F & Delitzsch, F n d. Tr by J Martin (from the German). Commentary on the Old Testament: The Pentateuch, vol 1. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[OzSpen]

Logic is taught by Philosophy experts. Not by some guy with a holocaust website (or by me or you or Jim).

From your link: "This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred."

As for the 'fallacy of hasty generalization', as it applies to the immortality of all souls (the souls of the lost and the souls of the saved); surely then you would agree that it is fallacious logic to claim that lost souls are granted immortality simply because the souls of the saved are granted immortality, right??? Sounds like a pretty hasty generalization to me.

If you had read the homepage of The Nizkor Project, you would have discovered that the list of logical fallacies was written by Dr. Michael C. Labossiere and is from one of his tutorials on logical fallacies.

Who is Dr. Michael C. Labossiere? Dr Google tells me that he is Professor of Philosophy at Florida A&M University. How about that? He's a professional philosopher after all.

Your complaint about the lack of philosophical credentials is illegitimate.

The Nizkor Project is an excellent resource that describes the content of logical fallacies, which were used by a pile of people during the Nazi regime to deceive people of Germany and other lands.

Why can't you admit that you used a fallacy of hasty generalization?

Is that too difficult to admit that is what you did?

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

The Scriptures don't establish any such thing.

That's funny.... the scriptures in MY Bible do....

 

[OzSpen]

That's funny.... the scriptures in MY Bible do....

Jim,

Your statement above was, 'The scriptures repeatedly establish that the soul or spirit does not cease to live when the body dies'.

Let's look at just a few examples that support your claim:

• At the resurrection of Lazarus, John 11:25-26 (ESV) records, 'Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”'

• This is what Paul says about death in 2 Cor. 5:8 (ESV), “We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord“.

• Phil. 1:23 (ESV) affirms that Paul’s desire (and it is my desire) “to depart and be with Christ for that is far better”.

• To the thief on the cross beside Jesus, Jesus said: “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43 ESV).

I commend Dan Lioy’s article, “Life and death in biblical perspective“. See also John Lawrence, “Death and the word of God“.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,
Your statement above was, 'The scriptures repeatedly establish that the soul or spirit does not cease to live when the body dies'.
Let's look at just a few examples that support your claim:

• At the resurrection of Lazarus, John 11:25-26 (ESV) records, 'Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”'

• This is what Paul says about death in 2 Cor. 5:8 (ESV), “We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord“.

• Phil. 1:23 (ESV) affirms that Paul’s desire (and it is my desire) “to depart and be with Christ for that is far better”.

• To the thief on the cross beside Jesus, Jesus said: “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43 ESV).

I commend Dan Lioy’s article, “Life and death in biblical perspective“. See also John Lawrence, “Death and the word of God“.

Oz

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Here, we seem to be on a wheel which periodically brings around OSAS, faith alone without works, no eternal punishment in hell, baptism's just for show, and a few other favorites which don't come to mind at the moment.

I have attempted to show where people's comments have been illogical or taken totally out of context only to find that logic and context are concepts with which many, not only do not know anything about the subject, but, often, don't even suspect there is something to be known. I have attempted, in response to "proof-texts" to show the rest of the story (as Paul Harvey used to say) only to have them either dismissed out of hand or completely ignored and then be assailed with another barrage of "proof-texts."

I grow weary.

Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in its petty pace from day to day til the last syllable of recorded time. And all our yesterdays light fools the way to dusty death.
or
Proof-text after proof-text after proof-text drip like a leaky faucet from day to day like punishment for some crime. And all the light of logic and learning offered is snuffed out by fools in darkness on their way to the next pop-theology Bible study.

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

There are more ways to view Scripture and the condemnation of unsaved souls than Calvin and His followers did, for example, "the parable of the rich man and Lazarus"...

I have seen this parable used many times as a reason for believing Luke 16:19-31 NASB proves every condemned soul will be an immortal soul and will begin being tormented in hell ("Hades") as soon as they die. Let us then take a closer look at this parable and the context in which it was told.

That is because of what you believe and it is the same thing Armstrong teaches, along with SDA and JW. But the event (not parable) is exactly what Christ brought to light (2 Tim. 1:9-11) and was the doctrine of the OT Saints and the early Church (2 Cor. 5:3-5).

 

[Jim Parker]

the same thing Armstrong teaches

Taught, actually. The lad passed from this vale of tears in 1986.

 

[OzSpen]

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Here, we seem to be on a wheel which periodically brings around OSAS, faith alone without works, no eternal punishment in hell, baptism's just for show, and a few other favorites which don't come to mind at the moment.

I have attempted to show where people's comments have been illogical or taken totally out of context only to find that logic and context are concepts with which many, not only do not know anything about the subject, but, often, don't even suspect there is something to be known. I have attempted, in response to "proof-texts" to show the rest of the story (as Paul Harvey used to say) only to have them either dismissed out of hand or completely ignored and then be assailed with another barrage of "proof-texts."

I grow weary.

Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in its petty pace from day to day and all our yesterdays light fools the way to dusty death.
or
Proof-text after proof-text after proof-text drip like a leaky faucet from day to day and all the light of logic and learning offered is snuffed out by fools in darkness on their way to the next pop-theology Bible study.

iakov the fool

Jim,

I encourage you not to become weary in doing good by correcting those who proof-text out of context.

Let's look at a few verses in context:

6 One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith (Gal 6:6-10 ESV).​

Let's use this section of Gal 6 to apply the title of this thread, 'Contradictions and the soul of man',

• Those taught the word (about the immortal soul) should teach this good word (immortal soul) to the teacher.
• It is possible to be deceived in this teaching - hence the term 'contradictions';
• God is not mocked because what is sown in eisegesis will reap its reward - confusion over the nature of what happens at death for believers and unbelievers.
• The one who sows to his own fleshly understanding of what happens at death - no hell for unbelievers and no soul/spirit to enter the Intermediate State for believers - will reap corruption. In this post title, this is called 'contradiction'.
• The one sowing to the Spirit by obedience to Scripture regarding eternal damnation and eternal salvation, will not reap corruption of understanding but will be enlightened by the Spirit's understanding.
• Refuting and challenging such fleshly understanding can cause some to grow weary in the good action of challenging incorrect exegesis. Those who remain true to Scripture will reap truth if they don't give up.
• On this forum we have the opportunity to do good to everyone by agreeing, challenging, correcting and defending the truth of what the Scriptures say about the immortal soul. There are no contradictions in Scripture, only 'apparent human contradictions in understanding'. Instead of promoting feel-good Christianity (no eternal damnation), we have the opportunity of doing good by correction. It doesn't feel good at the time of giving correction over and over as it can become wearying. But it is important to continue to be faithful exegetes and not base our responses on being politically correct and following Rob Bell's view of no eternal punishment in hell.
• Let us continue to do good on this forum by challenging and correcting views that are contrary to Scripture in regard to eternal life and eternal damnation (Matt 25:46 ESV).

Yes, it can be wearying but we are exhorted by Paul to the Galatians to 'not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up' (Gal 6:9 ESV).

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,

I encourage you not to become weary in doing good by correcting those who proof-text out of context.

Let's look at a few verses in context:

6 One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith (Gal 6:6-10 ESV).​

Let's use this section of Gal 6 to apply the title of this thread, 'Contradictions and the soul of man',

• Those taught the word (about the immortal soul) should teach this good word (immortal soul) to the teacher.
• It is possible to be deceived in this teaching - hence the term 'contradictions';
• God is not mocked because what is sown in eisegesis will reap its reward - confusion over the nature of what happens at death for believers and unbelievers.
• The one who sows to his own fleshly understanding of what happens at death - no hell for unbelievers and no soul/spirit to enter the Intermediate State for believers - will reap corruption. In this post title, this is called 'contradiction'.
• The one sowing to the Spirit by obedience to Scripture regarding eternal damnation and eternal salvation, will not reap corruption of understanding but will be enlightened by the Spirit's understanding.
• Refuting and challenging such fleshly understanding can cause some to grow weary in the good action of challenging incorrect exegesis. Those who remain true to Scripture will reap truth if they don't give up.
• On this forum we have the opportunity to do good to everyone by agreeing, challenging, correcting and defending the truth of what the Scriptures say about the immortal soul. There are no contradictions in Scripture, only 'apparent human contradictions in understanding'. Instead of promoting feel-good Christianity (no eternal damnation), we have the opportunity of doing good by correction. It doesn't feel good at the time of giving correction over and over as it can become wearying. But it is important to continue to be faithful exegetes and not base our responses on being politically correct and following Rob Bell's view of no eternal punishment in hell.
• Let us continue to do good on this forum by challenging and correcting views that are contrary to Scripture in regard to eternal life and eternal damnation (Matt 25:46 ESV).

Yes, it can be wearying but we are exhorted by Paul to the Galatians to 'not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up' (Gal 6:9 ESV).

Oz

It still feels like trying to teach a pig to sing. All it does is annoy the pig.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Taught, actually. The lad passed from this vale of tears in 1986.

Hi Jim, Yes, I remember. His son was still preaching after his passing. The WWCG after Armstrong, eventually split up into several different groups. Garner Ted Armstrong (Herbert's son) passed in 2003.

 

[OzSpen]

It still feels like trying to teach a pig to sing. All it does is annoy the pig.

I understand that it is tough going on many occasions, even on this forum. However, this is our biblical responsibility before God:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already (1 John 4:1-3 ESV).​

The responsibility of Bible teachers is that they will endure a 'stricter judgment' (James 3:1-2 ESV) because of the requirements placed on God's teachers of testing the spirits to discern false prophets (and false profits) and those who do not confess Jesus as from God. This means weeding out those who proclaim a human Jesus without the deity of Christ or a divine Jesus without the humanity of Christ (the latter being a form of Gnosticism/Docetism).

With the advent of the Internet there are more opportunities to sow seeds of false doctrine and water the seed into full-blown false teaching.

Keep watch, brother in Christ. Don't grow weary in doing good in correcting false doctrine and proclaiming orthodox teaching.

Oz

 

[freewill]

freewill,

Those who know Hebrew and Greek disagree with you.

According to OT Hebrew commentators, Keil & Delitzsch, ‘Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death’ (n d:338).

One of the leading exegetical Greek word studies edited by Colin Brown states: ‘In the LXX [Septuagint] hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb sheol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is a land of darkness, in which God is not remembered (Job 10:21f; 26:5; Ps. 6:5; 30:9 [LXX 29:9]; 115:17 [LXX 113:25]; Prov. 1;12; 27:20; Isa. 5:14)’ (Brown 1976:206).

So in the LXX, hades is a Greek translation of the Hebrew, sheol.

There is a further explanation of hades and sheol in my articles,

• Do evil doers experience eternal destruction or annihilation at death?;
• Hell in the Bible;
• Where will unbelievers go at death?

Oz

Works consulted
Brown, C (ed) 1976. The new international dictionary of New Testament theology, vol 2. Exeter: The Paternoster Press.

Keil, C F & Delitzsch, F n d. Tr by J Martin (from the German). Commentary on the Old Testament: The Pentateuch, vol 1. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

You are free to believe what you want to believe.

If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil.

 

[OzSpen]

You are free to believe what you want to believe.

No I'm not!

I'm only free to believe the truth about Jesus and the whole of revealed truth. 1 John 4:1-3 (NLT) provides my teaching responsibility of testing the spirits:

Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. 2 This is how we know if they have the Spirit of God: If a person claiming to be a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in a real body, that person has the Spirit of God. 3 But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here.
​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil.

Are you accusing others on this forum and me who believe in eternal life and eternal damnation that we are promoting 'the work of Satan' and that what we teach 'is a work of pure evil'?

Is that what you are declaring on this forum about these people and their teaching?

Oz

 

[freewill]

Are you accusing others on this forum and me who believe in eternal life and eternal damnation that we are promoting 'the work of Satan' and that what we teach 'is a work of pure evil'?

Is that what you are declaring on this forum about these people and their teaching?

Oz

What I declared was what I said:
If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil.

 

[OzSpen]

What I declared was what I said:
If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil.

So is what I write on this forum in support of eternal damnation for unbelievers 'a work of pure evil'?

 

[Douglas Summers]

You are free to believe what you want to believe.

Random believing (believing what you want) is self willed worship with a Spiritual void. Salvation does not come by personal revelation, it comes by personal conviction through condemnation of the soul by the light (truth) shinning in dark places. The Book of john.