Contradictions and the soul of man

[OzSpen]

Maybe there's a bit of confusion going on here.

When scripture speaks of God as immortal, (1 Tim 6) the meaning is that God has no beginning or end. That is the more precise meaning of the word "immortal" in Christian theology.

When scripture speaks of man as immortal, (1 Cor 15) the meaning is that man, as a created being, does have a beginning but that, after the resurrection, he will have no end. So, in Christian theology, the word "immortal" when applied to man, is not the same as when referring to God.

That's why 1Co 15:53 (RSV) says: For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

Our nature, as created by God and damaged by sin, is now perishable and mortal. At the resurrection, our nature will "put on", as something unnatural to it, imperishability and immortality. It will put on those attributes because Jesus, by His death and resurrection, has destroyed death and perishability.

iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result from said reading. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear it. Enjoy the rest of your life.

Jim,

This is so well said, especially your noting the content of 1 Cor 15:53 (RSV) where human beings put on immortality. In spite of God being the only one who is immortal in the sense of having no beginning or end, human beings will become immortal.

The dynamic equivalence of the New Living Translation translates 1 Cor 15:53 (NLT) as, 'For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies'.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Why do you find it so difficult to own up when you got it wrong? You continue to deny that you used a hasty generalization fallacy, which you did.

Oz

Because many people here in this stall of the electronic bathroom wall thinks that they are an expert in all fields of knowledge on the basis of having "got the HOLY Ghost." :halo

 

[chessman]

You were the one who claimed that the logical fallacies described on The Nizkor Project site were not from a professional philosopher.

No I didn't.
I said:

Logic is taught by Philosophy experts. Not by some guy with a holocaust website (or by me or you or Jim).

Which is true. Which is why the site owner used someone else's work.

Why do you find it so difficult to own up when you got it wrong?

I didn't get it wrong. If I'm wrong I don't mind admitting it.

When someone makes an incorrect factual claim, all that is necessary is to demonstrate the error once, not multiple times.

Example claim: God created all things, zero exceptions.
Counter: God did not create Himself.
Conclusion: Claim is erroneous.

Hasty Generalization
This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is not large enough.

Example of a hasty generalization claim: All humans are raised immortal because the saved are granted immortality at their resurrection (in their group).

Claim may be wrong due to the fact that you cannot overly generalize the way the saved are raised into the way the lost are raised.

 

[Jim Parker]

This is so well said, especially your noting the content of 1 Cor 15:53 (RSV) where human beings put on immortality. In spite of God being the only one who is immortal in the sense of having no beginning or end, human beings will become immortal.

Thank you for encouraging my behavior.
May your tribe increase.

The dynamic equivalence of the New Living Translation translates 1 Cor 15:53 (NLT) as, 'For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies'.

That's pretty good. (IMHO)
Me likie!

jim

 

[Jim Parker]

Logic is taught by Philosophy experts. Not by some guy with a holocaust website (or by me or you or Jim).

Logic can be taught by anyone who has been taught logic.
That would include Oz and me.
That you do not have a grasp of logic because you have not had the opportunity to have been taught is nothing of which to be ashamed. Everyone is ignorant in more fields than in which they are not. (Calculus is a black box to me and I know very little about physics.)
That you have chosen to be unteachable with reference to logic is your choice, not a fault of either Oz or me.

 

[OzSpen]

Logic can be taught by anyone who has been taught logic.
That would include Oz and me.
That you do not have a grasp of logic because you have not had the opportunity to have been taught is nothing of which to be ashamed. Everyone is ignorant in more fields than in which they are not. (Calculus is a black box to me and I know very little about physics.)
That you have chosen to be unteachable with reference to logic is your choice, not a fault of either Oz or me.

Well stated, Jim. :halo

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

There are scholars on both sides of the fence of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31 ESV). Even if it is a parable (which is the view I accept), it teaches one thing - what happens at death for believers and unbelievers.

This is under the Old Covenant because it was prior to Jesus' death and resurrection. It teaches that both believers and unbelievers go to Abraham's side vs Hades and they were able to see each other. Seeing each other is not the issue. The facts are that there is life after death for both believer and unbeliever. That's what this parable teaches.

There is immortality of the soul and this parable teaches that.

Oz

That's not at all what the parable about. A look at the details show show that. Note also that Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, not His disciples. Remember, Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in parables so that they would see and not understand.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5, This is what denominations have done to the Gospel of God in Jesus Christ. They have carnally interpreted Scripture with so many beliefs and different interpretations through self willed worship, trespassing in to places they should not go.

I think the problem is that we don't look at the context enough!

 

[Douglas Summers]

That's not at all what the parable about. A look at the details show show that. Note also that Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, not His disciples. Remember, Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in parables so that they would see and not understand.

The immortality of the saved who have God the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.




If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil, or to put it another way, it is the work of a twisted sadistic monster.

Butch, Scripture is not for private interpretation. There are other Scriptures that prove your belief is your own. And the born again believer knows the soul is conscience and aware, in the body or out of the body because God has revealed them to His own. And for you to tell the born again believer he is wrong on this matter, then you are making our Lord out to be a liar, and if you tell me what the Lord has revealed to us, then you insult the Spirit of God in Jesus The Christ who is conforming us to the image of Christ. I'am a witness to this, and even more it is Scriptural. If any man has sincerely asked the Lord to show him the TRUTH, everything that you had ever held onto will be taken from you, till you have nothing left but Christ. That is when you will find the truth.

 

[OzSpen]

That's not at all what the parable about. A look at the details show show that. Note also that Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, not His disciples. Remember, Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in parables so that they would see and not understand.

This is a useless comment when you claim that what I said the parable meant is wrong, but you don't tell me/us what you consider it is all about.

 

[OzSpen]

I think the problem is that we don't look at the context enough!

Which context? Again, this is a pointless comment unless you fill us in on the point your are making.

 

[smaller]

Logic can be taught by anyone who has been taught logic.
That would include Oz and me.
That you do not have a grasp of logic because you have not had the opportunity to have been taught is nothing of which to be ashamed. Everyone is ignorant in more fields than in which they are not. (Calculus is a black box to me and I know very little about physics.)
That you have chosen to be unteachable with reference to logic is your choice, not a fault of either Oz or me.

The notions that mans logic determines findings of scripture can't and won't compute on a very much simpler basis of logic. And that is this:

We don't have all the information that God Has, in particular, about His Own Self. Only God Himself knows what He Is in His Totality, and what He Can Do, or choses not to do.

Can mans logic make determinations from scripture? Yes, according the limits of the man running the logic filters, based only on, logically, partial information. Even traditional orthodoxy logic, held by some anyway, knows and acknowledges they can not logically impose man's LOGIC into certain arenas.

The scriptures themselves have BARRED man's form of limited information logic:

Isaiah 55:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Man's logic has it's limits. We certainly are not obliged to bow to the limits of man's logic. Even in such matters as the Trinity, we can define a basis of understanding by man's logic, but that logic ENDS when encountering the Mystery of God, which the authors of that understanding purposefully put in that mans logic envelope.

The simple lesson is that Gods Logic is Eternal. Ours isn't, and can not be.

 

[smaller]

Example claim: God created all things, zero exceptions.
Counter: God did not create Himself.
Conclusion: Claim is erroneous.

God is quite purposefully EXEMPT from the equation and conclusion you are trying to make in that sequence above. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

The first claim is a truthful fact of scripture:

"God created all things, zero exceptions"

That's the end of that logic sequence.

Verified by John 1:3, Col. 1:16-17, Rev. 4:12, Heb. 1:3, Eph. 1:11 and many many others similar. Why you keep trying to insert The Creator into the equation of 'all created things' is the error and nothing more. And, by rights, your conclusion is not only in error, but entirely illogical to start with.

 

[th1b.taylor]

God is quite purposefully EXEMPT from the equation and conclusion you are trying to make in that sequence above. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

The first claim is a truthful fact of scripture:

"God created all things, zero exceptions"

That's the end of that logic sequence.

Verified by John 1:3, Col. 1:16-17, Rev. 4:12, Heb. 1:3, Eph. 1:11 and many many others similar. Why you keep trying to insert The Creator into the equation of 'all created things' is the error and nothing more. And, by rights, your conclusion is not only in error, but entirely illogical to start with.

Amen

 

[Butch5]

Butch, Scripture is not for private interpretation. There are other Scriptures that prove your belief is your own. And the born again believer knows the soul is conscience and aware, in the body or out of the body because God has revealed them to His own. And for you to tell the born again believer he is wrong on this matter, then you are making our Lord out to be a liar, and if you tell me what the Lord has revealed to us, then you insult the Spirit of God in Jesus The Christ who is conforming us to the image of Christ. I'am a witness to this, and even more it is Scriptural. If any man has sincerely asked the Lord to show him the TRUTH, everything that you had ever held onto will be taken from you, till you have nothing left but Christ. That is when you will find the truth.

The problem you face with that interpretation of Scripture is that you cannot provide anything that teaches that the soul is conscious after death. Those who hold your position can only point to parables and stories to say look these are real events. There is nothing in the Scripture that explains how the soul leaves the body and lives on afterward. it's by way inference.

 

[Butch5]

Which context? Again, this is a pointless comment unless you fill us in on the point your are making.

That post was to Doug.

 

[Butch5]

This is a useless comment when you claim that what I said the parable meant is wrong, but you don't tell me/us what you consider it is all about.

The reason I didn't go into detail is because it would take a lengthy post and it was late and I had to work in the morning.

 

[smaller]

The problem you face with that interpretation of Scripture is that you cannot provide anything that teaches that the soul is conscious after death. Those who hold your position can only point to parables and stories to say look these are real events. There is nothing in the Scripture that explains how the soul leaves the body and lives on afterward. it's by way inference.

Scripture teaches a POST DEATH JUDGMENT for ALL mankind, beyond any doubts. NOW, if, as you claim, the dead are dead and permanently gone, there is no point in giving an account. The dead are dead and gone, without the need of accounting or answering to God. Scripture does not teach that claim:

Acts 10:42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Romans 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

And the real AXE of this matter falls here:

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

IF these were permanently in the dust, eternally dead, eternally gone, they would not be "standing before God" in DIVINE JUDGMENTS.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 

[Butch5]

No man can find all the knowledge of God by reading the Bible. That can only be accomplished by God through his Holy Spirit.

John 14
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
25: "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.
26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

We're talking about the Bible, not all of the knowledge of God. We are discussing what has been revealed. It's convenient to say we can't understand the things of God when our illogical doctrines are challenged. Too many accept this nonsense and are lead astray. The reason the Bible was written was so that we can understand. If what we come away with after reading the Scriptures is illogical it's because it's wrong.

 

[WIP]

The only part of man that dies is the flesh. Man was created spirit but the visible image ( the flesh ) was only temporary. It was birthed into the world, grew old and dies. This is not our true created existence within the thoughts of our Father. The visible things appear in our visions and dreams but they are ever changing. Only our created consciousness ( soul ) within the Spirit of God remains forever.

What is the Scripture that supports this claim?