Contradictions and the soul of man

[chessman]

Other than the Creator, you might start listing your other exceptions then ...

1. 'Things' like; The Father's love for The Son, The Son's love for The Father, etc.).
2. 'Things' that people think exist but do not actually exist.
3. 'Things' that exist but are not the subject of the verse(s).
4. Etc,

Declarative victories aren't worth much without the scriptural powder to back them up.

I agree. None of the verses you list actually say "all things" in the original Text. And none say "zero exceptions".

The word "things" is subjective (subject to the author's point) as to what is meant by a "thing". That's my point. You can't just insert any 'thing' you like into the verse(s) and call it scripture. The author had certain 'things' in mind and on topic in each verse. Yet other 'things' were not his subject. They are excluded.

Just for an example. Do you think God created freewill, because God created 'all things'?

The italicized word "things" is not even present in the following verses that you referenced in the original Text:

John 1:3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

All what???

All ___ came into being through him, and apart from him not one ____ came into being that has come into being.

Freewill came into being through him, and apart from him no freewill came into being that has come into being.

The verse is obviously talking about 'things' that have come into being. From the context, I would say 'things' coming into existence since the beginning of the creation of the heavens and earth (i.e. Gen 1:1). Indeed ALL of them, those 'things'. But, it says nothing about the 'things' that have not come into being. For example things that are eternal (like God's love, God's holiness, etc. And things that do not actually exist.

My point is simple, some 'things' are excluded from the subject of John 1:3.

Col 1:16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together,

Again, the Text literally/precisely is:
because all in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all were created through him and for him, and he himself is before all, and in him all are held together,

This says nothing about the 'things' that are not created by Him.

There are many many scriptures showing God as the Maker and Creator of "all things" in heaven and earth.

Just remember that some 'things' are excluded from the subject of those Scriptures.

 

[OzSpen]

What I declared was what I said:
If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil.

freewill,

There is no need to scream at us with you bold large font. Would you please stop that writing abuse?

You seem to have missed one side of the immortality coin.

I agree with you that there is only one Person who is truly immortal – God Himself, as stated in 1 Tim. 6:15-16 (ESV), “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion.” Therefore, only God is immortal in the sense that He is the Owner and Originator of human life and he Himself has always existed.

But there is a flip side to the coin of life and that's in 2 Timothy 1:10 (ESV) which speaks of God’s purpose and grace “which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel”.

In what sense has our Saviour Christ Jesus abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel? What kind of immortality is this?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The italicized word "things" is not even present in the following verses that you referenced in the original Text:

John 1:3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

All what???

All ___ came into being through him, and apart from him not one ____ came into being that has come into being.

Now translate John 1:3 (SBLGNT), πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν, to make sense in context.

Oz

 

[smaller]

1. 'Things' like; The Father's love for The Son, The Son's love for The Father, etc.).
2. 'Things' that people think exist but do not actually exist.
3. 'Things' that exist but are not the subject of the verse(s).
4. Etc,

Your continued posture is to drag the "Eternal" of God into the equation of created things. We've already examined this, that The Creator, in any form or expression, can not be 'created.' I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

I agree. None of the verses you list actually say "all things" in the original Text. And none say "zero exceptions".

There are no exceptions. Everything that exits in "creation" is a direct expression of The Creator who "created" all things. There is no way around this. It is equally clear that there is a clear line of distinction between The CreatOR and the creatED.

The word "things" is subjective (subject to the author's point) as to what is meant by a "thing". That's my point. You can't just insert any 'thing' you like into the verse(s) and call it scripture.

I have inserted nothing against the 'all' claims. Still waiting for your exceptions of what in creation The Creator DIDN'T create.

The author had certain 'things' in mind and on topic in each verse. Yet other 'things' were not his subject. They are excluded.

Which are what? That's the point of the exercise. When scriptures, many, state quite plainly that The Creator "created" all things, there simply are not any exceptions other than the Creator Himself, who did not "create" Himself.

Just for an example. Do you think God created freewill, because God created 'all things'?

There is no such posture in the scriptures as "freewill." Whatever "wills" exist still fall under the auspices of The Creator who created same. By rights these take a "lesser posture" under The Creator.

So, free compared to what? A Greater/Superior Will? Never! It's not even remotely possible. It's a mere assertion that postures that the "created will" can have it's 'free reign' apart from The Creators Own Intentions. This mandates that The Creators Will be REMOVED from the equations of said wills. In other words it's a GODLESS claim on the face of it.

The real question behind all of this is this: Will The Supreme Divine Creator have HIS WAY with "all things" in His Creation? IF anyone says no, they have, effectively, a NEUTERED POWERLESS GOD who is for all purposes and intentions, out of control.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

No one can be "removed" from Gods Hand.

The italicized word "things" is not even present in the following verses that you referenced in the original Text:

John 1:3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

All what???

All ___ came into being through him, and apart from him not one ____ came into being that has come into being.

Freewill came into being through him, and apart from him no freewill came into being that has come into being.

No will exists apart from Gods Will. No freewiller can prove from scripture that Gods Will is NOT involved.

The verse is obviously talking about 'things' that have come into being. From the context, I would say 'things' coming into existence since the beginning of the creation of the heavens and earth (i.e. Gen 1:1). Indeed ALL of them, those 'things'. But, it says nothing about the 'things' that have not come into being. For example things that are eternal (like God's love, God's holiness, etc. And things that do not actually exist.

I have no idea what you are trying to claim in the above.

My point is simple, some 'things' are excluded from the subject of John 1:3.

Fine. Name them. What exits in creation that created itself, totally and completely against both Gods Hand in creating all things to start with, and against and apart from Gods Will since.

Produce your list. And start by "removing" God from the equations, conclusively, by using scripture.

Col 1:16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together,

Again, the Text literally/precisely is:
because all in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all were created through him and for him, and he himself is before all, and in him all are held together,

This says nothing about the 'things' that are not created by Him.

Fine. Produce your list. Let's see how many other creators there are and how God was removed from being involved.

Just remember that some 'things' are excluded from the subject of those Scriptures.

Nothing that exists in creation is out of Gods Supreme Dominion over "all things," period. Were the opposite actually true there'd be no point in even bothering with such a God. Such a God is only the God of "some things" but not ALL.

No one can prove from scripture that Gods Hands are not in operation with and in all things that transpire in His Own creation. That posture, to me, is simply a ridiculous Godless claim.

Here is Paul's quite correct GODLY claim:

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Now, go find me your exceptions to the above. Then we can conclusively prove PAUL is wrong in the above claim.

 

[freewill]

freewill,

There is no need to scream at us with you bold large font. Would you please stop that writing abuse?

You seem to have missed one side of the immortality coin.

I agree with you that there is only one Person who is truly immortal – God Himself, as stated in 1 Tim. 6:15-16 (ESV), “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion.” Therefore, only God is immortal in the sense that He is the Owner and Originator of human life and he Himself has always existed.

But there is a flip side to the coin of life and that's in 2 Timothy 1:10 (ESV) which speaks of God’s purpose and grace “which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel”.

In what sense has our Saviour Christ Jesus abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel? What kind of immortality is this?

Oz

The immortality of the saved who have God the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.




If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil, or to put it another way, it is the work of a twisted sadistic monster.

 

[chessman]

If you had read the homepage of The Nizkor Project, you would have discovered that the list of logical fallacies was written by Dr. Michael C. Labossiere and is from one of his tutorials on logical fallacies.

It's not on the homepage of the site. I checked. It's on another page. Dr. Michael C. Labossiere started teaching at FAMU four years after I gained my degree from FAMU, ironically.

None of which has anything to do with the disagreement I had with the post you replied to. Nor does Labossiere list a logical fallacy called:
"Going from a specific single thing to plural things".

My reply post and point was that a member said there were "zero exceptions" to things God made. Paul and I both disagree.

1 Corinthians 15:27 (LEB) For “he subjected all things under his feet.” But when it says “all things” are subjected, it is clear that the one who subjected all things to him is not included.​

There are exceptions. It is false that there are zero exceptions. Logically speaking.

 

[chessman]

The Creator, in any form or expression, can not be 'created.' I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

It's not hard to understand. Just like it's not hard to understand that the 'things' we call the attributes of God (such as His love or His will) are things that God did not create.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that there are things God did not create?

 

[dianegcook]

Are you accusing others on this forum and me who believe in eternal life and eternal damnation that we are promoting 'the work of Satan' and that what we teach 'is a work of pure evil'?

Is that what you are declaring on this forum about these people and their teaching?

Oz

Oz
Are you not doing the same thing?
As you quote John 11:25,26
Read it as a child, it clearly states those that believeth in Him, shall never die.
You do believe this, don't you?
So, one would understand, those that don't believe will die.
The rich man is waiting for the final judgment, when Hades , grave, or whatever is cast into the lake of fire, and will be consumed. The second death..
Call me an unclean spirit or dumb, whatever you want..
Those whom do not believe shall perish, fully destroy, die.
My

 

[smaller]

It's not hard to understand. Just like it's not hard to understand that the 'things' we call the attributes of God (such as His love or His will) are things that God did not create.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that there are things God did not create?

Are you going to trot out scriptural evidence that contradicts Paul?

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Let's see the exceptions.

 

[th1b.taylor]

If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

Gen 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

There are Black Men, White Men, Brown Men, Yellow Men and others and we are all, everyone of us, Sinner and Saint, created in the image of God.

God is a Spirit Being, someone that to the Natural Eye cannot see. And yet there is something that is created in the image of God. I will suggest that there is a Spirit Being in every Human Body that like God, is eternal. Either that or God/Jesus lied and I am not going to build any structure on that pile of shifting sand.

No, the Spirit that lives in me will, along with the Holy Spirit that teachs and directs my Surrendered Life.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It's not hard to understand. Just like it's not hard to understand that the 'things' we call the attributes of God (such as His love or His will) are things that God did not create.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that there are things God did not create?

Your issue is you have skewed God into something that is easily understood and that is not the truth. The truth is best studied with a Nave's Topical Bible and use the studies found under God. You can access the Nave's on many web sites, particularly at Bible Hub and other such Bible Studt sites.

 

[Mike]

Some members are dangerously close to questioning, even rejecting, the salvation of believers here which is in violation of ToS 2.4. If you continue down this road because you believe you are obligated, proceed with the understanding that actions are subject to consequences. Tread lightly, and be careful with your words.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Mike, you didn't quote but the message is directly beneath mine making me think it is aimed at me, ok. But I read all my messages on this page and i didn't tell any they were not saved.

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi Jim, Yes, I remember. His son was still preaching after his passing. The WWCG after Armstrong, eventually split up into several different groups. Garner Ted Armstrong (Herbert's son) passed in 2003.

One segment of the split renounced the heretical Armstrong teachings and joined the ranks of orthodox (small "o") Christianity.

 

[Mike]

Mike, you didn't quote but the message is directly beneath mine making me think it is aimed at me, ok. But I read all my messages on this page and i didn't tell any they were not saved.

Ha! Just a coincidence of timing. I was not referring to anything you said at all, brother.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thank you.

 

[Jim Parker]

1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal

Maybe there's a bit of confusion going on here.

When scripture speaks of God as immortal, (1 Tim 6) the meaning is that God has no beginning or end. That is the more precise meaning of the word "immortal" in Christian theology.

When scripture speaks of man as immortal, (1 Cor 15) the meaning is that man, as a created being, does have a beginning but that, after the resurrection, he will have no end. So, in Christian theology, the word "immortal" when applied to man, is not the same as when referring to God.

That's why 1Co 15:53 (RSV) says: For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

Our nature, as created by God and damaged by sin, is now perishable and mortal. At the resurrection, our nature will "put on", as something unnatural to it, imperishability and immortality. It will put on those attributes because Jesus, by His death and resurrection, has destroyed death and perishability.

iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result from said reading. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear it. Enjoy the rest of your life.

 

[smaller]

There are no ambiguities in scripture, that being that everyone WILL give an account to God:

Paul taught this here:

Romans 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

And Peter says essentially the same thing here:

1 Peter 4:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

As does Jesus, in multiple statements of fact, here:

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Were any of the aforementioned "eternally dead" there is no use in having any accounting of them. They would simply be irrelevant and gone, along with "all" their evil works.

Matthew 18:23
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

Under this "servant-hood" there are found both good/wise and likewise wicked/evil servants.

And yes, all will give "account" to the king of "all things."

So, what do we say about "judgment?"

Proverbs 28:5
Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all things.

And what does the wise man see in this?

Ecclesiastes 9:
2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I think we can "all" rest quite assured of Divine Accounting by our Maker. He has appointed us to live. He has also appointed us to die. He has also appointed us to give an account at the completion of our appointed days.

In that account it will be quite factually determined, that all of us were quite entirely guilty. Romans 3:19. Of this I am quite entirely certain.

Now, for a believer, we have supposedly all cast ourselves, on the MERCY of The Court.

There will be nowhere else to stand. This much I am also quite certain of.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Do you know that Mercy and Merciful is not found by one citing in the book of Revelation? At least in the KJV or NIV.

Some call this the 'age of Grace.' I might term it, the 'age of Gods Mercy in Christ.' Which age comes to an end in Revelation.

The Mercy of God is eternal. And the MERCIFUL will go on, with Him, forever.

Isaiah 57:1
The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

Got Garments? What are they?

I might suggest that mercy drips off those who have received same.

Luke 6:36
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Everyone standing here, with their UNmerciful checkbook in hand, counting sins against others, may have a bit of their own medicine applied for their own UNmercifulness.

I might consider that the Love of God in Christ, His Grace, His Mercy, His forgiveness, are the finest garb available, now or forever.

But the flesh detests these Garments. Because of the presence of evil, therein.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Everyone wearing their own garb? Nope. Ain't happenin. The evil of those claims of self righteousness will be washed away, soon enough.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

For years now I have came to this site, and find people, believers no less, still engaged in this attempt: To throw each others into possible eternal damnation. Is this what we think we are called to do? NEVER in all of eternity, will that be TRUE.

Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Is this really so HARD to understand?

 

[OzSpen]

The immortality of the saved who have God the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil, or to put it another way, it is the work of a twisted sadistic monster.

So are you saying that the saved have immortality because God the Holy Spirit is living in them?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It's not on the homepage of the site. I checked. It's on another page. Dr. Michael C. Labossiere started teaching at FAMU four years after I gained my degree from FAMU, ironically.

None of which has anything to do with the disagreement I had with the post you replied to. Nor does Labossiere list a logical fallacy called:
"Going from a specific single thing to plural things".

My reply post and point was that a member said there were "zero exceptions" to things God made. Paul and I both disagree.

1 Corinthians 15:27 (LEB) For “he subjected all things under his feet.” But when it says “all things” are subjected, it is clear that the one who subjected all things to him is not included.​

There are exceptions. It is false that there are zero exceptions. Logically speaking.

You were the one who claimed that the logical fallacies described on The Nizkor Project site were not from a professional philosopher. I demonstrated to you that you were wrong and that they were from the hand/keyboard of a professional philosopher, Dr. Michael C. Labossiere.

Why do you find it so difficult to own up when you got it wrong? You continue to deny that you used a hasty generalization fallacy, which you did.

Oz